When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Richard Holbrook]

Robert said concerning Matt 22:39:

1]>> I've been over this many times. Lucifer invented the principle of "self".....I'm noting talking about self-awareness, I talking about self-seeking, self-interests and self-love. These things are the essence; the foundation of every sin you commit. <<

Of course Jesus isn't talking about this kind of love, and neither was I. That shouldn't even have to be said.

>>2] There is only one command in your quote: "You are love your neighbor". It doesn't say to love yourself and your neighbor. That's two commands! The 2nd part of your quote tells us how we are love our neighbors: "As you love yourself."<<

It absolutely does say love your neighbor and your self, both. Otherwise the word "as" wouldn't be there. It would just say love your neighbor. If I wash my Chevy as my Ford, it means I washed them both. And it means I washed them both the same.

In this case the word "as" comes from the Greek word hos which means 1) like, even as, too, etc.

>>In other words you are to take that self-love that you born in and instead of loving yourself project it to your neighbor. <<

No it dosn't say love your neighbor instead of yourself Robert, read the text.

>>Jesus is stating that the law requires selflessness, not self-love. <<

Selflessness is good, but is not what Jesus is talking about here. There are loads of people in the world today all around us, who suffer from low self esteem. and self loathing. You should think enough of yourself to be able to hold your head up when you walk down the street.

In other words, you shouldn't do anything to hurt your neighbor, and you shouldn't do anything to hurt yourself. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't do either one. That's all I'm saying.

>>And you thought you were keeping God's law?<<

I didn't say I was keeping anything Robert, don't put words in my mouth.

[Richard Holbrook]

Sounds good Stan.

[Richard Holbrook]

I kinda like here Stan, If you can keep from getting to frustrated, these folks will make you study your Bible.

[Lutz13]

I think you have it backwards, Musicman.

Love your neighbour as yourself is not secondary. That and the other one, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul are the two that the 10 and any others hang from.

Love is the principle. When you love God and others more than yourself, you will naturally obey the Law.

It's a simple equation but with our selfish hearts not as easy to implement. In fact, it's impossible. We need to be born again.

[Musicman1228]

What matters to God is the Truth, about which everyone that is alive at the end will have to decide.

[Stan]

just in case this was missed...

- - copy and paste - - -

Dr Rich, Musicman and others.

I want to make this very plain and very clear.

Should folks want to challenge some adventist thought and adventist thinking that is fine, but it will be done here in a private forum with those interested may join,

This is not a place for those coming home, and having to constantly defend defend defend, that gets old have the first day or two.

We have not invested thousands of dollars into advertising and hosting to have this be a punching bag.

When that happens people just leave, they get tired of it and just go elsewhere.

If you want more of a public message board, I would be happy to host a blog for you, for the cost I have... about $3-4 per month..

Thoughts?

[teresaq]

i dont visit here often but,

it seems to me that disagreement is okay, but the lack of respect and outright attacks against others is the problem.

seems to be a good thread to bring this up.

[Robert]

No it dosn't say love your neighbor instead of yourself Robert, read the text.

[John317]

Speaking as moderator:

Yes, disagreement in interpretation is OK, of course, but on the theology threads, it is not OK to urge people to believe that Paul or other Bible writers were of Satan. Nor that Ellen White is a Jezebel.

These posts will be deleted or edited and if posters continue to urge these ideas on public threads, they will be banned.

[John317]

Low self-esteem comes from the love of self....The opposite of agape isn't self-hate...it's selflessness, i.e., no thoughts of self, but instead your neighbor's wealth. That's how it will be heaven.

I agree with you on some of your points, but in heaven and on the new earth, we will also be aware of our own wants and desires. For instance, there won't be anything wrong in being aware of the fact that maybe we want to talk to Paul or Ellen White, or maybe that we want a house in the countryside. "Complete selflessness" can give the idea that we have no self. But the truth is that while in heaven we won't have selfishness, that is different from saying we will have no thoughts of self. The difference is that thoughts of self will be secondary to thoughts of the wishes of others. Love for others will be uppermost in our motives and thoughts.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Low self-esteem comes from the love of self....The opposite of agape isn't self-hate...it's selflessness, i.e., no thoughts of self, but instead your neighbor's wealth. That's how it will be heaven.

....we want a house in the countryside.

[Robert]

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. As we saw in our last study, we are all shaped in “iniquity” (bent to self). Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23].

But God’s love (agape) is the very opposite. It is self-giving. It was because of this that Christ did not cling to His equality with the Father, but emptied Himself and became God’s slave, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [Philippians 2:6-8]. All His earthly life, Christ demonstrated God’s agape [John 17:4, first part.] This is “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which the disciples beheld [John 1:14]. He lived for the benefit of others; He actually became poor for our sakes, that we “through His poverty might be rich” [2 Corinthians 8:9].

The supreme manifestation of God’s self-giving love was demonstrated on the cross when Christ tasted the second death for all mankind [Hebrews 2:9]. This second death is obvious since believers who are justified in Christ still have to die the first or sleep death but will be exempted from the second death [Revelation 20:6]. The second death is the cessation of life or saying goodbye to life forever. On the cross Christ was submitting to this death. He was willing to be deprived of life forever (not just three days) that we may live in His place . It was this self-emptying love that transformed His disciples who before the cross were dominated by self-interest [Luke 22:24]. [JS]

[Robert]

Iniquity

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4]. [JS]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

....we want a house in the countryside.[/quote']

No, all thoughts bent towards self will be left in the grave at the resurrection.

So, then, you seem to be saying it is a sin to think or say, "I would like a glass of water," or "I want something...." Are those examples of having a bent toward self? You can be sure that Jesus Himself said such things.

[Richard Holbrook]

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness.

So our best love is a sin? A rather narrow view don't you think? We all want good things for ourselves, this is not a sin. Do you only want bad things to happen to you? I assume you want to go to heaven. Why? Because it would be a good thing for you personally. Is that a sin too? I don't think so. And I don't think you want to go just so you can help out up there.

Everything we do and think is not polluted and sinful, as you have implied here. One can take anything to the extreme. If Satan can't get you off the road and in the ditch on one side, he'll shoot for the other side. Either way, you're in the ditch. (The middle of the road is: Love thy neighbor as thyself.) Let me ask you a question: Do you believe we can overcome sin in this lifetime, in this sinful world, by the power of God?

[Richard Holbrook]

I agree with John317 about the glass of water.

[Gerr]

Quote:

1] I've been over this many times. Lucifer invented the principle of "self".....I'm noting talking about self-awareness, I talking about self-seeking, self-interests and self-love. These things are the essence; the foundation of every sin you commit.

We gone over this before a number of times. Sorry but you are mixing truth with error. You are equating principle of "self" with self-seeking, self-interest, and self-centeredness. That is patently false! The former is GOD'S idea, not Lucifer's. As for the latter, yes, you are absolutely correct that that was Satan's invention. The principle of "self", individuality, is a gift from God, else He would have used a cookie cutter to make people or even anything in His universe.

[Gerr]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So, then, you seem to be saying it is a sin to think or say, "I would like a glass of water," or "I want something...." Are those examples of having a bent toward self? You can be sure that Jesus Himself said such things.

Like I said, "He had to eat and get out of the rain, but besides these basic necessities all He did was for others."

[Robert]

We all want good things for ourselves, this is not a sin.

[Robert]

The principle of "self", individuality, is a gift from God, else He would have used a cookie cutter to make people or even anything in His universe.

Everyone is different, true, that's a gift, but living for self is sin according to the spirit of the law. Look at Christ's life....That's perfection....He never lived for Himself....

[Robert]

Yes, there is only ONE command, i.e. Love your neighbor in the same manner as you love yourself!

But you already love yourself from birth....So Jesus isn't telling you to love yourself....That's a given...you are already sinful because you are bent to self....Instead love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself....If you do your neighbor would have your goodies....But I see you with all the goodies....Where's that love to your neighbor? Seems you are too busy loving self....Me too! Hence, our need of grace and forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ.

[Robert]

Back to the subject....

Before Christ's character can be perfectly reproduced...before His agape can be perfectly seen through His church,

1] The gospel must be fully restored and

2] “Their [the last generation of Christians] earthliness [worldliness] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes [self-seeking] and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world.

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).[JS]

[Musicman1228]

Robert,

What does it mean to 'die to self?'

[WayneV]

Robert,

I thought you might enjoy this quote that came to me in a e-newsletter.

Quote:

There are plenty to follow our Lord half-way, but not the other half. They will give up possessions, friends and honors, but it touches them too closely to disown themselves.

— Meister Eckhart