When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Robert]

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Now combine the above with this: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure [no mixture of "self"], genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Again, I can't find the "self-love" in all this...

Be honest, folks, from the time you were born everything you've done (outside Christ working through you) was based in your love of self. Education, your career, sports...or whatever...everything you've done is done is for the advancement of self. This, according to Christ, is the essence of sin.

[Robert]

Education, your career, sports...or whatever...everything you've done is done is for the advancement of self. This, according to Christ, is the essence of sin.

Adventism has produced a lot of educated folks...especially doctors and such, right? Has Adventist's education followed the world or Christ? You decide:

"There is an education which is essentially worldly. Its aim is success in the world, the gratification of selfish ambition”

“Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.”

"To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking ($$$). Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence....how widely different is much of the education now given! From the child’s earliest years it is an appeal to emulation and rivalry; it fosters selfishness, the root of all evil."

Think it out, folks....Everything is about competition....I must get a better education so I can outdo others....Wow, hear that love of self? The whole system is corrupt....

[Gerr]

Quote:

You haven't told me a thing....Explain the gospel....For that you need Paul

How absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Any body saved before Paul wrote his epistles?

The One who said, "I am the Light of the world" did not have it right?

Moses? Habakkuk? Isaiah? The GOSPEL writers?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

To die for someone else in no way shape or form indicate the absence of self-love. A lot of parents would gladly sacrifice their lives for the good of their children.

But Christ died for us when we were His enemies....And He didn't die any death, He died the 2nd death...no hope of a resurrection.

Would you be willing (not just willing, but would you give up heaven and eternal life) so that some one who murdered, raped and tortured a family member could have heaven in your place.....That's what Christ did. There's no self-love in that.....

He just loves you MORE than himself. Nothing about not loving himself! There is NO command for me to sacrifice my eternal life so that someone else could have it.

Jesus said: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. THERE IS NO OTHER COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE." Mk 12:32 ESV

[Gerr]

Keep up the good work Robert. Appreciate your Gospel centered message.

Sorry, Red, but you just don't realize how sinister and toxic this man's "gospel" is!

[Gerr]

Here are some EGW statements....Please, find your love of self in the following:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

Note: Agape seeks not it's own wealth, but another's wealth. Also, self-love, self-interests must perish. So, Doc, when you went to medical school you would have taken that knowledge, not for your own self-interests & wealth, but instead for those around you. But instead you, like all of us, have a life of self-seeking. We all went to college (or whatever) to build up wealth for ourselves. In fact Capitalism is built on this premise. It will fail too (actually it is failing). Why? It's based in iniquity. Why are we, as Christians, participating in it? Answer: Self-love.....That's why in the end we'll be without....“Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] Then, when we have nothing, we will be completely Christ reliant. At that time (time of Jacob's trouble) we will experience agape to it's fullest....No more self-love.

Is EGW your pope? You seem to use her as your authority a lot.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: EGW

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Now combine the above with this: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure [no mixture of "self"], genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Again, I can't find the "self-love" in all this...

Be honest, folks, from the time you were born everything you've done (outside Christ working through you) was based in your love of self. Education, your career, sports...or whatever...everything you've done is done is for the advancement of self. This, according to Christ, is the essence of sin.

Since you have a penchant for context, here is the context of the above quote:

The sin which is indulged to the greatest extent, and which separates us from God and produces so many contagious spiritual disorders, is selfishness. There can be no returning to the Lord except by self-denial. Of ourselves we can do nothing; but, through God strengthening us, we can live to do good to others, and in this way shun the evil of selfishness. We need not go to heathen lands to manifest our desire to devote all to God in a useful, unselfish life. We should do this in the home circle, in the church, among those with whom we associate and with whom we do business. Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. We should forget self in the desire to do good to others. With many there is a decided lack of love for others. Instead of faithfully performing their duty, they seek rather their own pleasure. {2T 132.1}

God positively enjoins upon all His followers a duty to bless others with their influence and means, and to seek that wisdom of Him which will enable them to do all in their power to elevate the thoughts and affections of those who come within their influence. In doing for others, a sweet satisfaction will be experienced, an inward peace which will be a sufficient reward. When actuated by a high and noble desire to do others good, they will find true happiness in a faithful discharge of life’s manifold duties. This will bring more than an earthly reward; for every faithful, unselfish performance of duty is noticed by the angels and shines in the life record. In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; [bEGIN P.133] but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them. If we wish to enjoy heavenly society in the earth made new, we must be governed by heavenly principles here. {2T 132.2

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 2; Testimonies, Volume 2. 1855; 2002 (132). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The context is the subject of selfishness. So when she says, "none will think of self", is she not saying - none will think of self in a selfish way? Not absolutely no thought of self in the way you are forcing it to say?

And please notice also what she says: "we must be governed by heavenly principles HERE." So if your interpretation is correct, you should/must give ALL your goodies to your neighbor here and now, not wait till heaven where it is meaningless to give someone what you have because no has lack of anything there.

The Lord has given every one of us a sense of self-respect, and this must not be opposed too abruptly. God wants us to respect ourselves.White, E. G. (1998; 2002). Daughters of God (141). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gerr]

No thought of self?

Christians Have a Positive Duty to Cultivate Respect for Themselves.

It should be the fixed purpose of the youth to aim high in all their plans for their life-work. They should adopt for their government in all things the standard which God’s Word presents. This is the Christian’s positive duty, and it should be also his positive pleasure. Cultivate respect for yourself because you are Christ’s purchased possession. Success in the formation of right habits, advancement in that which is noble and just, will give you an influence that all will appreciate and value. Live for something besides self

White, E. G. (1998; 2002). Daughters of God (143). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

We need to be self-reliant; it is the duty of all to respect self; but we are to remember that we are God’s property, that we are bought with a price, body, soul, and spirit. We must guard the living machinery, and keep it in the very best condition, that we may glorify God. It is to be daily oiled by His grace, to run at His touch, without friction.

White, E. G. (1998; 2002). Daughters of God (144). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Robert]

Quote:

You haven't told me a thing....Explain the gospel....For that you need Paul

How absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Any body saved before Paul wrote his epistles?

The One who said, "I am the Light of the world" did not have it right?

Moses? Habakkuk? Isaiah? The GOSPEL writers?

So when Christ says, "This gospel shall be preached to the whole world for a witness...." Gerry's reply is "how absurd"?

[Robert]

He just loves you MORE than himself. Nothing about not loving himself!

[Robert]

Is EGW your pope? You seem to use her as your authority a lot.

No, but on many things she is right....Now, again, since you didn't answer my question, where's the self-love in the following:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

[Robert]

And please notice also what she says: "we must be governed by heavenly principles HERE." So if your interpretation is correct, you should/must give ALL your goodies to your neighbor here and now, not wait till heaven where it is meaningless to give someone what you have because no has lack of anything there.

That's just another way of saying agape will be seen in the life of the believer. That's why she said "less self-seeking", etc....All of us are falling short of God's agape love, yet in the life of the believer a change will be seen. This couldn't be possible under law.

[Robert]

So when she says, "none will think of self", is she not saying - none will think of self in a selfish way? Not absolutely no thought of self in the way you are forcing it to say?

Of course we will be self-aware....We will be our own persons....We'll have names and identities, but our love will always be outward. There'll be no u-turn agape.

[Richard Holbrook]

Jesus, as man, had no advantage....He set aside the independent use of His deity. He could not read the future unless His Father revealed it to Him. So on the cross Jesus couldn't see beyond the grave. Hence He had to make a choice:

Jesus and the Father had gone over the plan of salvation in every detail long before Adam and Eve ever sinned. So he knew what was beyond the grave. He knew the Father would raise him up, and he never lost faith in his Father, as you have stated yourself.

There is no text or EGW quote that says he didn't think he would be raised. This is where you are speculating.

[John317]

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 753, paragraph 2; Chapter Title: Calvary

NOTE: Ellen White is not saying that Christ lacked faith in the Father. She is saying that from the human viewpoint, while on the cross, Christ's profound sense of the offense of sin caused Him to fear that He must be separated from the Father eternally.

[Woody]

Thanks Robert. You bring out some very enlightening truths about the Gospel. A breath of fresh air. I've learned much. Appreciate how you have presented the Gospel. Keep up the good work.

[John317]

Not Pleasing to God to Demerit Oneself.--It is the privilege of everyone to so live that God will approve and bless him. You may be hourly in communion with Heaven; it is not the will of your heavenly Father that you should ever be under condemnation and darkness. It is not pleasing to God that you should demerit yourself. You should cultivate self-respect by living so that you will be approved by your own conscience, and before men and angels. It is not an evidence of true humility that you go with your head bowed down, and your heart filled with thoughts of self. It is your privilege to go to Jesus and be cleansed, and to stand before the law without shame and remorse. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." While we should not think of ourselves more highly than we ought, the Word of God does not condemn a proper self-respect. As sons and daughters of God, we should have a conscious dignity of character, in which pride and self-importance have no part.--RH, Mar. 27, 1888.{DG 142.1}

Counsel to One Who Had Lost Self-respect.--Jesus loves you, and He has given me a message for you. His great heart of infinite tenderness yearns over you. He sends you the message that you may recover yourself from the snare of the enemy. You may regain your self-respect. You may stand where you regard yourself, not as a failure, but as a conqueror, in and through the uplifting influence of the Spirit of God. Take hold of the hand of Christ, and do not let it go.--MM 43 (1903).{DG 142.2}

Bitter Words Result in Loss of Self-respect.--What harm is wrought in the family circle by the utterance of impatient words; for the impatient utterance of one leads another to retort in the same spirit and manner. Then come words of retaliation, words of self-justification, and it is by such words that a heavy, galling yoke is manufactured for your neck; for all these bitter words will come back in a baleful harvest to your soul. Those who indulge in such language will experience shame, loss of self-respect, loss of self-confidence, and will have bitter remorse and regret that they allowed themselves to lose self-control and speak in this way. How much better would it be if words of this character were never spoken! How much better to have the oil of grace in the heart, to be able to pass by all provocation, and bear all things with Christlike meekness and forbearance.--RH, May 19, 1891. {DG 142.3}

[Robert]

The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave .....

Clearly, this wouldn't have been possible if Christ as the Son of Man used His Divinity independent of the Father. In Christ's mind it was over. In fact the humanity Christ assumed wasn't raised. When Christ's Divinity was restored He was raised by the Father with a glorified humanity. The old remained in the grave....

[Musicman1228]

Here is another one of those times when you must either believe what Jesus Christ Himself said and what God in the O.T. said or what anyone other than Jesus said.

Was Jesus affected at all by sin, did He take sin upon Himself for us or was He the perfect, sinless, Passover Lamb of God with no sin on Him or in Him at the time of His death?

Did Jesus as a human being have Divinity given to Him by God such that He could not use that Divinity to see beyond the cross, or was Jesus the actual Son of God and know that He would resurrect Himself from the grave after 3 nights and 3 days?

Did Jesus Christ have to have His divinity restored because He lost it due to taking our sins on Himself which He carried into death, or because of the fact that if He had any sin in Him or on Him He could not have acted as our Passover sacrifice mean that He remained the Son of God even in death.

Did Jesus become the Son of God by the power of God at the resurrection, or is He in fact God, yesterday, today and forever?

These questions and answers will define how you view the person and nature of Jesus Christ. Who and what you use as the source for the answers will speak volumes as to who you actually revere and honor, because there are two conflicting sources for the answers to each of these question. A mistake in choosing the right one could be fatal.

[Dr. Rich]

Robert wrote: "So when Christ says, "This gospel shall be preached to the whole world for a witness...." Gerry's reply is "how absurd"?

Here is what Jesus really said: "And this gospel OF [about] THE KINGDOM, shall be preached in the whole would for a witness..."

Therefore it is NOT Paul's gospel that must be preached to all the world, but the gospel about the Kingdom of Heaven. So Robert, do you know this gospel?

[Robert]

Robert wrote: "So when Christ says, "This gospel shall be preached to the whole world for a witness...." Gerry's reply is "how absurd"?

Here is what Jesus really said: "And this gospel OF [about] THE KINGDOM, shall be preached in the whole would for a witness..."

Therefore it is NOT Paul's gospel that must be preached to all the world, but the gospel about the Kingdom of Heaven. So Robert, do you know this gospel?

Right...sure, the gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Son of Man. The details, which are very important, come from Paul!

[Robert]

Was Jesus affected at all by sin, did He take sin upon Himself for us or was He the perfect, sinless, Passover Lamb of God with no sin on Him or in Him at the time of His death?

Jesus is God. At the incarnation Jesus, while remaining Himself (God), became what He was not by divine right....He "was made of a woman"..."He was made under the law (condemned)"..."He was made sin"....But all this "He was made" because by native right He, as God, was none of this.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Was Jesus affected at all by sin, did He take sin upon Himself for us or was He the perfect, sinless, Passover Lamb of God with no sin on Him or in Him at the time of His death?

Jesus is God. At the incarnation Jesus, while remaining Himself (God), became what He was not by divine right....He "was made of a woman"..."He was made under the law (condemned)"..."He was made sin"....But all this "He was made" because by native right He, as God, was none of this.

Made under the law

[wayfinder]

>>"He was made under the law (condemned)"<<

Rob: Precisely what do you mean by this statement?

Are you saying that the law condemned Him or that He somehow broke the law and was condemned by it or didn't break it yet was condemned by it?

[Musicman1228]

If Paul is the one that supplies the details about the gospel that is to be preached in all the world before the end will come and we are still here on earth after nearly 2000 years of preaching the gospel of Paul then it is apparent that we have been preaching THE WRONG GOSPEL. We certainly have not been preaching the gospel of the Kingdom that was taught by Jesus Christ. If we had been preaching the correct gospel don't you think that with all the power and might available to God He would have put more effort into supporting His gospel? He would only do this IF the gospel that was being preached was the one He wanted to be preached.

As a friend of mine pointed out to me recently the gospel that Paul preached was a gospel of the Gentiles (the world) not the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

We are not in Heaven RIGHT NOW because we, as SDA's, have been afraid to preach the gospel that Jesus wanted and needed us to preach from the foundation of our church: that is, that you must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved, and you get into that Kingdom by becoming righteous, which happens through the process of Sanctification, which comes through the power of the Holy Spirit, and not by faith through grace. The blood of the Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ, pays the penalty for the entire KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, which is why you must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to gain eternal life. That is what Jesus Christ taught to His own disciples. That is not what Paul teaches in his gospel of the 'personal savior'.