When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't believe those questions can be answered fully without realizing that if we reject the Spirit of Prophecy (i.e., the ministry and writings of Ellen White), we can't really be a "good SDA." This is particularly so if we are trying to get other SDAs to reject Ellen White and her writings.

The only comment I have is, well, no comment....

Does Jack Sequeira accept her as a true prophet of God?

Have you ever talked to him about that?

[Musicman1228]

There are lots of Ex-Adventist web sites that promote leaving the SDA church because of the belief that EGW is a false prophet. Quite a while ago I went to hear and ex-Adventist minister at at Sunday church expound on how awful the SDA church is because of EGW. I asked him the same question I have brought up here; can you be a good Adventist and not believe in EGW. His answer was no; that once you realize that EGW is false you must leave the SDA church and find a new home.

I very nearly did what he suggested, until I realized that without EGW our church would still be the Kingdom of Heaven on earth because that role is in prophecy. EGW was not one of the original founders of the Advent movement. She came along later and basically took over the leadership of the movement because she had visions that she claimed came from God and she was believed by many but not all of the leadership of the church.

What would the SDA church look like today if EGW had not had the influence that she was allowed to have? It is my belief that we would still have the name Seventh-day Adventist. We would still be interested in studying prophecy and end-time events. What would be different would be that we would have had more inclination and opportunity to study Scripture without bias that came from a single authoritative source, and caused Adventists to take her word for all doctrinal issues without question.

Today there are any number of people like me that question her authority but not the role of the SDA church as the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. I am a Seventh-day Adventist IN SPITE of EGW, not because of her. So again, what does that make me in relationship to being a 'good' SDA? I have heard it said that I cannot be a bondservant of Jesus Christ unless I am also a believer in and follower of EGW. Yet this attitude puts EGW on par with Jesus Christ in authority, which is something that ANY follower of Jesus Christ must reject.

Number 17 of the 28 Fundamentals of the SDA church states (and I paraphrase) that EGW is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. Continuing from what, and authoritative by whom?

I look at this situation this way; If I reject EGW as a legitimate prophet of God and use only the Words and teachings of Jesus Christ as my source for truth and I am correct in doing this then I still have the opportunity for salvation. If I accept EGW as a prophet of God and an authoritative source for truth and I am wrong I will have blown my opportunity for salvation based on the fact that I believe a lie. This choice seems like a no-brainer to me. If believing in EGW causes me to lose my eternal life it is not worth it. If not believing in EGW does nothing to affect whether I have eternal life then I am no worse off.

Because of this it is apparent that being an SDA in good standing in the church should not be affected by not believing in EGW. It should have no effect on status within the church. If it has ANY effect then the belief in EGW becomes the litmus test for membership in the Kingdom of Heaven and takes the place of Jesus Christ in that role. That is blashpheme. It is for this reason that I will not have anything to do with anyone other than Jesus Christ, His words and His Spirit as I move toward the truth that will bring me eternal life.

[wayfinder]

Matthew 25:5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

There is only one reason the Bridegroom would be delaying His return, His bride is not ready. The bride is not His bondservants, nor the bridesmaids, His bride is the numberless multitude spoken of in Revelation 7. It matters very little to me what EGW, or Paul say. The only reason for a bridegroom to delay his wedding is that he knows his bride is not ready. Those who are charged with the responsibility of preparing the bride to meet her Bridegroom are, at the present time, fast asleep (spiritually). Why, you may ask, are they fast asleep; because they have been sung a lullaby by the aforementioned individuals.

The bride is ultimately prepared, that is what the book of Revelation is all about.

[John317]

EGW was not one of the original founders of the Advent movement. She came along later and basically took over the leadership of the movement because she had visions that she claimed came from God and she was believed by many but not all of the leadership of the church.

She never claimed to be a founder or the leader in the church. James White and Joseph Bates were the actual founders. She was certainly instrumental in the founding of the church, however.

But whether she was a founder or cofounder is not really important.

What is important is the influence she had and still has on the church.

Based on the way I understand the history of the SDA church-- both doctrinally and in terms of its vision and its agenda-- there is no way I would simply dismiss Ellen White as an insignificant player whose work did not vitally affect the direction of the church.

[Richard Holbrook]

If I accept EGW as a prophet of God and an authoritative source for truth and I am wrong I will have blown my opportunity for salvation based on the fact that I believe a lie. This choice seems like a no-brainer to me. If believing in EGW causes me to lose my eternal life it is not worth it. If not believing in EGW does nothing to affect whether I have eternal life then I am no worse off.

That's where you are wrong. If you reject EGW and she turns out to be the real deal, (which she is) you cannot say you are no worse off. Because you have rejected the Prophet of God. Look back through Bible history and see what happened to those who rejected God's Prophets.

By rejecting his Prophet you reject God himself.

[Dr. Rich]

Rich4Life, are you serious? Are you telling me that someone who follows ONLY the words of Jesus is going to be lost? If your handle is what you believe, then it is time you do a little searching for the real truth. You will only find it in the words of Jesus--He said that His words are the foundation you can build your house on. If you now tell me that this is wrong--then why are you rejecting Jesus' words?

Have you ever read the prophecy after the ten virgins in Matthew 25? Please show me a prophet here? The Master is gone and it is up to you to make the choice!

[Richard Holbrook]

Rich4Life, are you serious? Are you telling me that someone who follows ONLY the words of Jesus is going to be lost? If your handle is what you believe, then it is time you do a little searching for the real truth. You will only find it in the words of Jesus--He said that His words are the foundation you can build your house on. If you now tell me that this is wrong--then why are you rejecting Jesus' words?

Have you ever read the prophecy after the ten virgins in Matthew 25? Please show me a prophet here? The Master is gone and it is up to you to make the choice!

For one you got my handle wrong d.r. but you're even more wrong by thinking you can follow Jesus, but reject his prophets.

[Musicman1228]

If what you say is true then anyone that rejects someone that calls themselves a prophet of God will lose their eternal life. Think of the power that gives anyone; I could call myself a prophet of God and if you rejected me then you would be lost for eternity, even though my official status was never proven true. It would be my word against yours. It is your word against mine. If that played out with you declaring yourself to be a prophet (or apostle) and the situation was reversed then those odds would be too much for me to take. I would reject you in a heartbeat, just as (I hope) you would reject me. It would be my word against yours. From my standpoint this defines the situation with EGW perfectly. Therefore, my rejecting EGW will do nothing to keep me out of the Kingdom and eternal life.

Premiss: I have serious doubts and reservations about the validity and trustworthiness of EGW as a prophet. I believe with all my heart that she IS NOT a true prophet of God. So, according to Paul because I am covered by grace through faith and I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ I CANNOT be held accountable for my rejection of EGW. God loves me and will save me anyway.

Is this not true?

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

anyone that rejects someone that calls themselves a prophet of God will lose their eternal life.

I didn't say that, you did. You don't accept them just because they say they are. But if they really are and you fail to see that, (especially with all the wisdom you and D.R. claim to have) Woe be unto you.

And why are you quoting Paul, you don't believe in Paul.

[Musicman1228]

I didn't quote Paul, I stated his theology which is there for all to see. Why are not the words of Jesus Christ sufficient to bring me to eternal life? Why do I need anyone else to show me the way? Did Jesus not do well enough on His own in giving the truth that He needs the help of others to better explain what He means? If this is the case then Jesus Christ was not the Son of God, because the Son of God needs no additional help defining the truth. Jesus Christ is my first and last and always. For what reason should I put my salvation into the hands of anyone other than Him?

[Richard Holbrook]

He dosn't need additional help, You do. And out of his goodness he provides it. What I'm saying is look at those who rejected God's prophets in the past. Including the SDA church.

[John317]

Speaking as moderator:

For Dr. Rich, Musicman, and Wayfinder & friends,

All posts on the theology threads which accuse Paul of being a liar and a false apostle will be deleted.

If you feel the need of constantly filling our threads with these notions, and you cannot stop yourselves from doing so, it would be better if you go elsewhere.

Asking questions about theology or about ideas is good, but do not come to Club Adventist with the agenda of trying to persuade people that the Apostle Paul is a false prophet and that other parts of the NT are of Satan.

NOTE:

Listen to, and cooperate with, moderators. (If you have a problem with a moderator, who has identified that they are acting in their role as a moderator, take it to PM immediately. Challenging the decisions of moderators who are acting in that role in the open forum is not acceptable behavior.)

The above rules will be enforced by the moderators and administrators. Enforcement may take the form of editing, deleting, warnings, and, as a last resort, suspension or banning. The moderators will apply the rules as they judge to be of benefit to their various threads, according to its tone and conditions.

[olger]

Good man.

g

[John317]

As a moderator:

Let me be really clear, Dr. Rich,

You have a pattern in your posting, that virtually every topic ends up in a discussion about the Apostle Paul being a false apostle or that certain books and writers of the Bible are not inspired, etc.

If you personally want to reject Paul and other NT writers as a false apostles, that's your right, but do not try to convince others in the Club to believe as you do on this point or get them to quote only certain parts of the Bible.

You have been told several times that this needs to stop, yet you've continued to post them. Stop NOW.

If you feel that you cannot stop, then you are invited to go elsewhere or to take it to a private thread.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, it is clear to me that you had a private meeting with me to find out more about where I was coming from and when I told you, that you personally decided that you were going to do what ever it was to get rid of me, not only on this forum, but in the church. It reminds me of what the RCC did to people when they didn't go along with what they believed. Well, good luck John and the rest of you here on this forum. If I can't preach the truth here, then I will shake off the dust----

Dr. Rich (SDA)

[Richard Holbrook]

Dr. Rich, Why do you call yourself SDA? What you believe has very little in common with SDAs. About the only thing I see is the sabbath. You could be a seventh day Baptist, or seventh day church of Christ etc. Although I wonder how long they would put with being told they were idiots

[Dr. Rich]

Try reading Revelation 3:4. I see that you don't believe in the prophecies in Revelation so I don't think you will understand this either, but that is your choice. We all have choices to make, and I find it very sad when people refuse to see and hear because they already say they see and hear--I read where Jesus also had this problem.

Now, if you can find ONE thing wrong with my firm belief that Jesus Christ's words and teachings are the truth--then take a stab at it. I am not set free as most of you believe who have 'blind faith' that you are saved by grace. I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ--as such, these bondservants come out of the SDA church. If you live long enough, you will find this out some day. I am not a prophet, but I am wise enough to understand the end time prophecy(s) as God said in Dan. 12:10. If you don't understand, it is because of your choice. Just remember, NONE of the wicked will understand! I am totally tired of not being able to tell the truth on this forum and am going to stop because of the nonsense I see. Good luck.

Dr. Rich (SDA)

[Richard Holbrook]

Nobody here ever said the words of Jesus Christ aren't the truth. I'm saying the words of Dr. Rich are not the truth.

So when are going to stop telling this "truth"?

You say the bond servants come out of the SDA church, but you're still in. Seems to me like you need to start your own church.

[John317]

Try reading Revelation 3:4.

What would you like to say about Rev. 3: 4?

Here it is:

Quote:

4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

What determines if people are "worthy"? What does that mean?

Quote:

DR. RICH-- I see that you don't believe in the prophecies in Revelation so I don't think you will understand this either, but that is your choice. ...

But just because people don't believe and understand the prophecies as you do does not mean they don't believe the prophecies. Wouldn't you agree?

If people don't agree with our view of prophecy, it's best to ask them questions to find out what they believe and why. We can't assume they don't believe in the prophecies or that they won't understand something.

[John317]

Now, if you can find ONE thing wrong with my firm belief that Jesus Christ's words and teachings are the truth--then take a stab at it.

I think most people at Club Adventist believe that Jesus Christ's words and teachings are the truth.

Quote:

I am not set free as most of you believe who have 'blind faith' that you are saved by grace.

The kind of faith that the Bible speaks of, and that believers are to have in Christ, is not "blind." It is based on experience and evidence. It is trust and confidence built on the basis of God's promises because we have found Him to be true to His word.

Anyone who is finally saved in God's kingdom will be there by the grace of God. Don't you believe that? Or do you believe that people will be there because they earned their salvation?

[John317]

John317, it is clear to me that you had a private meeting with me ...

This conversation is best carried on by PM. I sent you a PM a few minutes ago, Richard.

[Dr. Rich]

ok

[John317]

You already read that PM. It was from the other day.

[Richard Holbrook]

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. He has assured us that He is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. {TMK 130.4}

[Maschil]

remember to look at the context... its not talking about sinless perfection but service....