When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Dr. Rich]

Am I? Then tell me, just what makes me a tare or weed? Please, I really want to know!

Matt. 13:26 "But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also."

This proves one thing--that during the time the plants were all growing, no one could tell them apart. Only at the time just before harvest could the difference be seen.

Matt. 13:72 "And the servants of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?"

This proves on thing--that ONLY the bondservants of Jesus will notice the difference.

Here is the difference: The wheat are those who keep the commandments and obey the testimony of Jesus. The tares are those who follow people who say and teach that the commandments have been done away with or nailed to the cross and do not obey the words of Jesus.

[John317]

The wheat are those who keep the commandments and obey the testimony of Jesus.

The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. There are those who keep the commandments of God for a time but then change. They can end up finally rejecting the Spirit of prophecy and the commandments of God as well as the faith of Jesus. So those who appeared for a time to be "wheat" may ultimately prove to be "tares."

Quote:

The tares are those who follow people who say and teach that the commandments have been done away with or nailed to the cross and do not obey the words of Jesus.

Some people may misunderstand what others are saying and teaching. For instance, some believe (wrongly!) that Paul taught that the commandments of God have been eliminated or that he disagreed with Jesus, but they are wrong in their view of Paul's letters.

The wheat and tares will finally only be separated by the angels of God. Until then, there is a great deal of change back and forth-- what seemed to a tare becomes wheat, and vice versa.

It's the duty and responsibility of the church to decide about behavior but it can't read the heart. We can judge behavior but we can't judge the heart and the motives.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John, you posted this same thing before. Testify means to bear witness under oath or declaration by words. Jesus said He came to this earth to testify to the truth. His words then are what the people in Rev. 12:17 obey. And no John, what you call 'the spirit of prophecy' or the writings of Ellen White, are NOT the same as the words of Jesus. Please don't confuse the two!

Yes, the angels do the harvesting, but the servants discover the difference! (Are you one of them and know the difference?) And there is NOTHING in the words of Jesus that says anything about them going from a wheat to a weed or vice versa. Just where did you get that from? Jesus made it clear in Matthew 7 that only His words are to be obeyed. If you listen to anyone else (including me, EGW and Paul) then you may be building your house on sand. This is the bottom line.

[Richard Holbrook]

If you listen to anyone else (including me, EGW and Paul) then you may be building your house on sand. This is the bottom line.

If we listen to you DR, the sand part is a given.

[John317]

If you listen to anyone else (including me, EGW and Paul) then you may be building your house on sand. This is the bottom line.

I believe without a doubt that both Paul and Ellen White were genuine prophets of God and that Jesus Christ sent them with messages from heaven. So I have made my choice.

You have chosen to reject them. That's your choice.

[BobRyan]

R.H.

You assume quite a bit. Please show me where God has revealed that the Bible is His word to His people.

So how far back on this 45 page thread do we have to go to find the actual thread subject instead of that "Bible denying" argument we see in that comment above?

I randomly jumped back 10 pages then 20 pages and still could not find the thread subject -- just more "why I reject the Bible" arguments from Rich.

Once a topic is totally hijacked like that - I would suggest closing the thread and re-opening another one with a similar title and maybe the OP or the first couple of pages. So the reader has a ghost of a chance of knowing where the actual topic discussion is going.

There are some boards where they set a limit of 30 or 40 pages then close down the thread - so that another can be started (even if on the same subject) where readers have a chance at grasping the various positions given.

in Christ,

Bob

[Richard Holbrook]

So how far back on this 45 page thread do we have to go to find the actual thread subject instead of that "Bible denying" argument we see in that comment above?

in Christ,

Bob

I think it's on page 1

[oldsailor29]

Thanks, John317!

So...

What's left to do?

"Christ's Object Lessons" is a wonderful book. Start reading.

[LifeHiscost]

If people can't see a big difference between our life before coming to Christ and our life after coming to Christ, there is something wrong-- don't you agree?

Yes! To be sure. OTOH when a person is first spoken to so that they are aware of an influence toward the Father, but they are still unaware of Who the influence is, it may take some time before their outward deportment confirms the inward pleadings of the Holy Spirit.

This pleading of the HS may be a result of the prayers of others for the deliverance of someone totally ignorant of the love of God for their soul, and the change probably will not be evident until somewhere down the Way.

It would seem to me that all believers should give the benefit of the doubt to people who profess but have not yet learned the fullness of deliverance. It would seem to me, for those of us who have full confidence in God's power to deliver, we need to wait for God's timing. Look how long Saul of Tarsus spent in murderous actions against the saints before Jesus made the obvious change to Paul the Apostle.

"...at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."Acts 26:13-15 NKJV

You seem to be good example of that( I mean allowing time for the influence of the HS to work the change. Many people aren't so apt, including myself at certain times.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

You are using this incorrectly...."Christ in you" is equivalent to fruit...."You in Christ" is speaking of how He saved us....It refers to the cross. "In Him" we are a new creation...literally without sin "in Him".....Pay attention to details....

Summary:

You in Christ is what saves...

Christ in you is what witnesses to that salvation, albeit you fall short....

Sorry Robert, I don't accept the gospel according to Robert. Neither do I use the Holy Scriptures. I post them and let the Holy Spirit speak to Whoever is willing to listen.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Richard,

That is assuming that God is in minute control of everything that His people have access to as to truth. In other words God precisely dictates who and what can be seen and learned by 'true Christian believers' so that they are completely protected (shielded) from the deceptions of Satan when it comes to the truth about God. God will not let anyone that truly believes in Jesus Christ be deceived.

Did I get that right?

There is probably a couple of conditions that are necessary to insure remaining undeceived.

"And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

Revelation 12:9 NASB

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. "Ephesians 6:12-16 NASB emphasis theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Richard Holbrook]

LHC, I percieve you to be a man of wisdom. Thanks for sharing it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Thanks, John317!

So...

What's left to do?

"Christ's Object Lessons" is a wonderful book. Start reading.

Here's some of that wonderful book:

By the king's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment. The guests at the gospel feast are those who profess to serve God, those whose names are written in the book of life. But not all who profess to be Christians are true disciples. Before the final reward is given, it must be decided who are fitted to share the inheritance of the righteous. This decision must be made prior to the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven; for when He comes, His reward is with Him, "to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12. Before His coming, then, the character of every man's work will have been determined, and to every one of Christ's followers the reward will have been apportioned according to his deeds.

It is while men are still dwelling upon the earth that the work of investigative judgment takes place in the courts of heaven. The lives of all His professed followers pass in review before God. All are examined according to the record of the books of heaven, and according to his deeds the destiny of each is forever fixed.

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Eph. 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Rev. 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.

........ Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

The guests at the marriage feast were inspected by the king. Only those were accepted who had obeyed his requirements and put on the wedding garment. So it is with the guests at the gospel feast. All must pass the scrutiny of the great King, and only those are received who have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness.

Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine.

It is not enough for us to believe that Jesus is not an impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll. "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness.

Source: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/col/col24.html

[Richard Holbrook]

AMEN

[LifeHiscost]

What this article doesn't mention is that Hull started meeting these spiritualists in private when he knew they were teaching error, and after SDAs had warned him not to meet with the spiritualists. It was soon after that when he threw his energies behind the doctrines he had once opposed.

I would like to suggest this article does reveal the same danger

which is prevalent in any religious debate with falsehood, including those that develop on this forum. I think a good principle was presented when Moses asked the question and God gave the answer.

"And it came to pass, on the day the LORD spoke to Moses in the land of Egypt, that the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “I am the LORD. Speak to Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say to you.”

But Moses said before the LORD, “Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh heed me?”

But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?”

So He said, “I will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain.”

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."Exodus 6:28-30; 3:14-17 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

LHC, I percieve you to be a man of wisdom. Thanks for sharing it.

Thank you, Richard, for the compliment. I'm still waiting for the time I'll be as wise as the Scriptures God has granted for all.

"...that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”["1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NKJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You are using this incorrectly...."Christ in you" is equivalent to fruit...."You in Christ" is speaking of how He saved us....It refers to the cross. "In Him" we are a new creation...literally without sin "in Him".....Pay attention to details....

Summary:

You in Christ is what saves...

Christ in you is what witnesses to that salvation, albeit you fall short.... [/quote']

Sorry Robert, I don't accept the gospel according to Robert. Neither do I use the Holy Scriptures. I post them and let the Holy Spirit speak to Whoever is willing to listen.

Regards!

Well, okay, but when folks like you misuse them the HS isn't in the mix.....

Let me ask you a question: Have "all things have become new" of you? Do you still retain a sinful nature? Do you still sin...fall short? Are you dying or are you immortal? Yes, you've got a new direction...a new mind/heart, but that's just one thing....Paul says "all things have become new"! So Paul is speaking of our glorified humanity "in Christ". Here's a clearer one:

Eph 2:4 ...God....made us alive together with Christ..., 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [NKJV]

Here's the NIV:

"God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Who is the "us"? You say, "It can't be me because I'm still here!" And to this I agree, but you are a child of Adam....You have sin residing in you....You are mortal....Then what was taken to heaven? What did Paul say? "Us"! What is this "us"? Answer: Our new creation...or glorified life. Jesus is the 2nd Adam....He is the new head of the human race....But instead of sinful, we are sinless "in Him".

The humanity we have now is not coming out of the grave. It will never come up for it is sinful...it is mortal...it is diseased....At the resurrection you will be changed in the blink of an eye for you will receive what is now true of your "new creation" in Christ Jesus. That's the context...that's the truth...this the Spirit backs up....

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

And true love for God and for neighbor-- having the mind of Christ-- will result in our obeying all of the moral law of God. That's genuine "righteousness by faith."

And if you are not obeying all the moral law (spirit included) you must not be righteous by faith. Wow! You've turned RBF into works....

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."Ephesians 2:10 NKJV Emphasis mine LHC

Does our salvation allow us to do what the Word says God created

us for?

Regards!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And if you are not obeying all the moral law (spirit included) you must not be righteous by faith. Wow! You've turned RBF into works....

"For we are His workmanship' date=' created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."Ephesians 2:10 NKJV Emphasis mine LHC

Does our salvation allow us to do what the Word says God created

us for? Regards! [/quote']

Your quote of Eph say nothing of fulfilling the law as Christ did....It says "good works"....

[LifeHiscost]

It is not as if all the evidence points in one direction and that the case is closed. On the contrary.

See L. T. Johnson, The Writings of the New Testament: An Interpretation (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1986), pp. 381-389.

A.T. Robinson, a highly respected "liberal" theologian who wrote books on the dating of texts believed 2 Timothy was written by Paul in A.D. 58. See:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/r/robinson-john_a-t.html

Let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

Your last thought is so important, for it gives all, the right and freedom to choose their own future. If it is found better to drop the commandments, God gives counsel in His Word, where it leads. He also tells where the keeping of them leads. No one is forced to keep them.

Our Father also gives power to those of His children who choose to follow His Way, in order to fulfill what He asks of them. For an omnipotent God, Who showed us His love by the giving of His Son that we might have eternal life, it is illogical to assume He would then refuse to give power to fulfill what He knows is necessary, for those who accept His instructions.

"...looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Hebrews 12:2 NKJV

"Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work."

John 4:34 NKJV

" Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."Galatians 6:2 NKJV

"...being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"Philippians 1:6 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

For some people the definition of Legalism is "obeying God in some area I don't care to obey Him in". It will often show up in the form of an offended tossing out of the term "legalism" no matter what the discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

I found myself chuckling over that conclusion, and then caught myself, recognizing it could only be humorous if the reality weren't so pathetic.

I honestly believe, though, some may in the near future realize there are many conclusions being drawn from the Bible that are erroneous as a result of using a limited amount of the texts that God meant to be perpetually useful, while eliminating others that ask for sacrifice.

These texts were written when both the first covenant and the second covenant was the context for their practice.

"But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”Matthew 4:4 Deuteronomy 8:3 NKJV

"“Gather My saints together to Me,Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.”"

Psalm 50:5 NKJV

Blessings!

[Musicman1228]

LHC said, "These texts were written when both the first covenant and the second covenant was the context for their practice."

I don't want to hijack this string but I do want to find out more about your concept of what the differences are between the first and second covenant. How do we go about doing that?

[LifeHiscost]

Bob,

What exactly did Jesus mean when he said that He had come to "fulfill" the law?

What exactly does it mean to have God's law written on the heart?

Go deeper, man...

Tom

There were three outstanding meanings given to the word "fulfill"

taken from Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary, and it really does give evidence that one has to use discerning choice to come to the best logical conclusion.

1. To put into affect 2. to bring to an end. 3. To convert into reality.

Logically I can see that to refrain from murdering would be the best way to put that command into affect. It seems illogical to bring that command to an end, unless I believe it is doing God service to kill people.

And if I'm converted to worship Jesus, reality is revealed in that commandment when the law is written on my heart, as point three suggests.

"...yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."John 16:2 NKJV

Just read and apply to each commandment, and just remember, it is "Christ in you" that accomplishes the reality.

"...of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Colossians 1:25-28 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

LHC said, "These texts were written when both the first covenant and the second covenant was the context for their practice."

I don't want to hijack this string but I do want to find out more about your concept of what the differences are between the first and second covenant. How do we go about doing that?

Pressed for time right now but, God willing, will make effort to get back later. I know there are some who will be able to zero in on the essence of the real difference between the 1st and 2nd

and what it means to us in practical everyday living.

In the meantime, here's hoping God grants you a fulfilling day.

Blessings!

[Woody]

I had a little talk with God and He told me I was perfect.