When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Richard Holbrook]

Even Serequel says it has to be cleansed. Cleansed from what? Sin.

[Richard Holbrook]

When you confess your sins, where do they go Robert?

[Robert]

Even Serequel says it has to be cleansed. Cleansed from what? Sin.

The blame for sin....Read it this time....And you still can't spell Jack's name right....

[Robert]

When you confess your sins, where do they go Robert?

They don't go anywhere....That's an absurd question.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Why are you so determind to remove "works" from the Gospel?

Because you are determined to add works to the gospel of Christ....

Quote:

Are we saved "in" our sins Robert?

Absolutely.

And here is the full admittance of a "false gospel".

Mark

[Twilight]

the cleansing of the sanctuary

No thanks.

Anyone that teaches what you are presenting gets absolutely zero of my time.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Because you are determined to add works to the gospel of Christ....

Quote:

Are we saved "in" our sins Robert?

Absolutely.

And here is the full admittance of a "false gospel".

Mark

First, the gospel is what Christ did 2000 years in our humanity. Add any human contribution to that and you've perverted the gospel.

Secondly, while Christian living (the fruits of the gospel) turns the believer in a new direction, we are never without iniquity. Hence Romans 3:23 & 1 John 1:8 for starters. Therefore we are never without sin and hence saved in our sins.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

the cleansing of the sanctuary

No thanks.

Anyone that teaches what you are presenting gets absolutely zero of my time.

Mark

And anyone who teaches and preaches your brand of perfectionism and scare tactics is to be denounced as a modern day Judaizer! As Paul states, "let him be eternally condemned"

Rob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No thanks.

Anyone that teaches what you are presenting gets absolutely zero of my time.

Mark

And anyone who teaches and preaches your brand of perfectionism and scare tactics is to be denounced as a modern day Judaizer! As Paul states' date=' "let him be eternally condemned"

Rob [/quote']

Eternally condemned?

Little strong don't you think Robert?

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And anyone who teaches and preaches your brand of perfectionism and scare tactics is to be denounced as a modern day Judaizer! As Paul states' date=' "let him be eternally condemned"

Rob [/quote']

Eternally condemned?

Little strong don't you think Robert?

Mark

Not at all!

Gal 1: 1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

... 11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

[Robert]

Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Those "some people" were the Judaizers. They believed in Christ, but they added the law to the salvation equation. In other words Christ has forgiven you of your past sins, now, through the grace of God you must keep the law. Hence faith + works = salvation.

Let's see what Paul said of the Judaizers:

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees [the Judaizers] stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses [the book of the law, which includes the moral law]."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

And Paul goes on to say, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. ... 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace [you're eternally condemned because you are back under the curse].

[Twilight]

Eternally condemned?

Little strong don't you think Robert?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Those "some people" were the Judaizers. They believed in Christ, but they added the law to the salvation equation. In other words Christ has forgiven you of your past sins, now, through the grace of God you must keep the law. Hence faith + works = salvation.

Let's see what Paul said of the Judaizers:

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees [the Judaizers] stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses [the book of the law, which includes the moral law]."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

And Paul goes on to say, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. ... 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace [you're eternally condemned because you are back under the curse].

How then do you reconcile the fact that we are "judged" by our works Robert?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Then we have your teaching that you will be "accepted" in your sins:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So you say that our works mean nothing and then you say that we are saved in iniquity.

Yet you accuse others of a false gospel?

Mark :-)

[BobRyan]

In Romans 2:6-16 we have a perfect explanation of the rule used to pass or fail people during the Dan 7 judgment that is preached as the "Eternal Gospel" in Rev 14:6-7. Christ summarize that process as "by their fruits you shall know them" in Matt 7.

In 2Cor 5 Paul summarized it in the form "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account for the deeds done in the body -- whether they be good or evil.

So lets take a look at that detailed explanation in Romans 2.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

[Twilight]

In Romans 2:6-16 we have a perfect explanation of the rule used to pass or fail people during the Dan 7 judgment that is preached as the "Eternal Gospel" in Rev 14:6-7. Christ summarize that process as "by their fruits you shall know them" in Matt 7.

In 2Cor 5 Paul summarized it in the form "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account for the deeds done in the body -- whether they be good or evil.

So lets take a look at that detailed explanation in Romans 2.

Originally Posted By: Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Thank you Bob, this particularly jumped out at me:

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Now I wonder how that could possibly stack up against:

"I am saved in my sins".

These two positions differ.

Which one should we listen to?

Hmmmm....

Mark

[oldsailor29]

the boat must be rowed with both paddles or it will just go in circles and never make any progress.

[BobRyan]

In the Arminian model "perseverance of the saints" is a key point of faith that does not presume OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) mind-lock such that you can not turn away. (That mind-lock is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist concept when they consider the Bible doctrine of perseverance. The 4 point Calvinists simply toss the entire Bible doctrine of perseverance (Rom 2:6-7) out the window so they can have "assurance no matter what").

But notice that to perservere in being saved - you have to first BE saved. You must first BE born again - to persevere in that condition.

You must first be the New Creation of 2Cor 5 to "persevere in it".

For the lost - that first step seems like a big deal to get to -- but for the saved it is in our "past" and it is in our "present" as we "Die Daily". As we "take up our cross DAILY and follow Him".

Thus the "good tree" continues to BE "a good tree" and so continues to produce "good fruit".

The day we cease to be the born-again new-creation "good tree" we also cease to produce "good fruit".

Thus the IJ does not change the tree from bad to good or from good to bad -- the IJ simply reports on what the tree already is.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

In the Arminian model "perseverance of the saints" is a key point of faith that does not presume OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) mind-lock such that you can not turn away. (That mind-lock is a 3 and 5 Point Calvinist concept when they consider the Bible doctrine of perseverance. The 4 point Calvinists simply toss the entire Bible doctrine of perseverance (Rom 2:6-7) out the window so they can have "assurance no matter what").

But notice that to perservere in being saved - you have to first BE saved. You must first BE born again - to persevere in that condition.

You must first be the New Creation of 2Cor 5 to "persevere in it".

For the lost - that first step seems like a big deal to get to -- but for the saved it is in our "past" and it is in our "present" as we "Die Daily". As we "take up our cross DAILY and follow Him".

Thus the "good tree" continues to BE "a good tree" and so continues to produce "good fruit".

The day we cease to be the born-again new-creation "good tree" we also cease to produce "good fruit".

Thus the IJ does not change the tree from bad to good or from good to bad -- the IJ simply reports on what the tree already is.

in Christ,

Bob

Wonderful, thank you. :-)

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

When you confess your sins, where do they go Robert?

They don't go anywhere....That's an absurd question.

If they don't go anywhere then you've still got them.

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}

..to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. {EW 252.2}

As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. {FLB 207.3}

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, From you’re post about Paul's eternally condemning an angel from God who brings a different gospel, are you saying that Paul eternally condemned the angel that Jesus sent to John to give him the gospel on being saved by works/deeds as found in Revelation?

[Dr. Rich]

RH--you posted from EGW: "As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}"

Is it then you're opinion that there is now sin in heaven because sins were transferred to the heavenly sanctuary? Didn't Lucifer/Satan get kicked out of heaven because of sin?

All this time I thought the goat of removal (scapegoat) was a symbol of Satan. Hmmm?

[Dr. Rich]

oldsailor--are you saying that there are two gospels and we should accept both? One of keeping the law (Jesus' gospel) and one of saved by grace and not of the law while being righteous by faith (Paul's gospel)?

[Richard Holbrook]

Hi Dr. Rich,

Nice to see you today. I hope your day is going well.

Before there was actual war in heaven, Satan had been sowing discord and falsehood among the Angels for some time. So yes sin did originate in heaven with Lucifer. And your sins (the ones you have confessed) are in the Sanctuary. That is the purpose of the Sanctuary.

[oldsailor29]

oldsailor--are you saying that there are two gospels and we should accept both? One of keeping the law (Jesus' gospel) and one of saved by grace and not of the law while being righteous by faith (Paul's gospel)?

LOL not really. I am saying that all reality is a oneness of opposites. It is a lot like Eli Siegel's esthetic realism.

[Dr. Rich]

Oldsailor and RH--Happy Sabbath! Boy, we had a lively program this morning on the issue of 'faith'. I was wishing you two could have been with us to give the listners your side or opinion. I tried to be the one for your side, but I didn't do very well. The program is always live with live call in listeners participating. Today's show was a real fun one because of the info. I got from this forum. Thanks guys!

Here is my take on how sin might have originated. I got this from the study of other religions (eastern) and from our studies in our Sabbath school class:

Satan's argument had to be very convincing to get one third of the angels to side with him--right? Then wouldn't it be a good argument to use on humans too? So how about the argument you, oldsailor, brought up—that for everything their must be an opposite? The yin and yang so to speak. The hands of Buddha held together. The foundation for eastern and new age religion.

It stems from the tree of good and evil. (do you like that pun?) As I see things (yes, I know it is not what you believe), Lucifer was sent to this earth with his angels after creation of mankind (not the same time as Adam) to watch over the humans and teach them the knowledge of God. But Lucifer taught them that he was their god and his angels were the sons of god. Lucifer had humans set up civilized nations all over the earth for who knows how long, and there came a time when the real God was not remembered as the one who created all things. This is when the war was in heaven and Lucifer was thrown down to this world. (But I may be wrong on this for Lucifer went to heaven to ask about Job after this—but it appears that Lucifer had already sinned and was called Satan at that time).

Adam was then made out of this earth and then placed in the Garden with the tree of good and evil to test him to make sure Adam would make a good witness to the rest of the world on who the God of Creation was. This is the reason why he was placed into the garden so that the evil people outside could not get in.

I want to keep this short, so I will not continue as I did in my ‘writing’ called “In The Beginning” which can be seen at www.spiritoftruthministry.net

Any thoughts?