When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

When you confess your sins, where do they go Robert?

They don't go anywhere....That's an absurd question.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 NKJV

"He will again have compassion on us, And will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins Into the depths of the sea."Micah 7:19 NKJV

Those who believe in all of what God says, have no problem answering that question.

Regards!

[Richard Holbrook]

LHC, did you see what EGW said?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Eternally condemned?

Little strong don't you think Robert?

Mark

Originally Posted By: Robert

Not at all!

Gal 1: 1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

... 11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

So yours is a gospel of condemnation then?

Mark :-)

No, but under law you're cursed....You keep up with the works trip and you'll end up with the curse because you have turned your back on the gospel!

[Robert]

How then do you reconcile the fact that we are "judged" by our works Robert?

[Robert]

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

You've misunderstood Romans 2....

Note that it doesn't matter if you are "under the law" or if you do not have the law because the law curses the sinner:

"all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law"

How many have sinned? All! Therefore all who are without law must perish....

"all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law"

How many who are under the law's jurisdiction have sinned? Again, all have sinned and...So those under law also receive condemnation.

How then can one be justified under law?

it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

IF you wish to be justified before law then you must be a doer of the law....All of it....You must live Christ's life....You must be perfect, as God is perfect.

Are you? No? Then you must die.

I for one I'm not under the law. I died in the humanity of Christ and I have accepted my death in Him. Hence I have met the justice of the law "in Christ" and the law can no longer touch me....It can't say obey and live...disobey and die. The nice thing is the legalists, folks like yourself, can't demand I fall in line also....So bug off!

[Robert]

and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The truth isn't the law....Paul is talking about obeying the gospel....That's another subject....

[Robert]

so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}

Really? So Christ's blood has sin it it? Tell me how that works?

BTW "The blood of christ" is a metaphor for His life laid down in death.....

[Robert]

Robert, From you’re post about Paul's eternally condemning an angel from God who brings a different gospel,....

Paul didn't say that....He said "if"....

If an angel did present a different gospel then God gave Paul then that angel would be a fallen angel....Think man, think!

[Robert]

your sins (the ones you have confessed) are in the Sanctuary.

You mean a record of sins? That I can buy, but sin isn't in heaven....There's a record because there's an accuser....In the judgment those who have accepted the gospel and kept the faith until the end will be vindicated "in Christ"....They will be found complete "in Him"....Those under law (legalists) will be condemned by that record....One sin will mean the curse....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

They don't go anywhere....That's an absurd question.

[/quote']

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 NKJV

"He will again have compassion on us, And will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins Into the depths of the sea."Micah 7:19 NKJV

Those who believe in all of what God says, have no problem answering that question.

Regards!

You didn't answer it....To cleanse from sin means to be presented without blemish (without sin - sinless) in the doing and dying of Christ....It's a metaphor....Watch out for those metaphors...they make make you look bad if you don't understand them....

[nuff sed]

That's like saying "Where does the dark go when you turn on the light?"

Sin is not a "thing"... Sin is an attitude.

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}

Really? So Christ's blood has sin it it? Tell me how that works?

BTW "The blood of christ" is a metaphor for His life laid down in death.....

Happy Sabbath Robert,

So you really know more about the sanctuary than EGW? And to think, I've got all those books, and cd rom and what not.

Can I start quoting you?

[skyblue888]

I must agree that the "blood" that was shed for us upon Calvary's cross represents the life of God as this statement shows: "And how much more are Christ's words (John 6:57) true of our spiritual nature. It is by receiving the life for us poured out on Calvary's cross that we can live the life of holiness. And this life we receive by recieving His word, by doing those things which He has commanded. Thus we become one with Him." D.A.660. *parenthesis supplied

For "His power, His very life, dwells in His word. As you receive the word in faith, it will give you power to obey." M.B.150.

As we rely on the merits of Jesus in order to bring His righteousness into the life, His words and commands become Spirit and life to us and we become partakers of the life of the Infinite One. It transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. And the life thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. See John 6:63; C.O.L.38; Education, 126.

As to where our sins go when we confess them, they are sent before hand to judgment and "forgiven" is written there beside every sin that has been confessed but they are not yet cancelled. In the investigative judgment if the records reveal no unconfessed or unforsaken sins, all the sins that had been sent beforehand to judgment will be blotted out and put on the scapegoat. But if the records reveal that there are unconfessed sins or unforsaken sins, all these sins will fall back on the head of the sinner and he will lose his eternal life.

This is taught in the sanctuary service.

How am i doing? Your thoughts,

sky

[Richard Holbrook]

You're doing fine sky, but what do you think of these quotes?

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}

..to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. {EW 252.2}

As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. {FLB 207.3}

[skyblue888]

You're doing fine sky, but what do you think of these quotes?

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ {FLB 206.6}

..to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly sanctuary. {EW 252.2}

As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. {FLB 207.3}

Right on Richard!

[oldsailor29]

Oldsailor and RH--Happy Sabbath! Boy, we had a lively program this morning on the issue of 'faith'. I was wishing you two could have been with us to give the listners your side or opinion. I tried to be the one for your side, but I didn't do very well. The program is always live with live call in listeners participating. Today's show was a real fun one because of the info. I got from this forum. Thanks guys!

Here is my take on how sin might have originated. I got this from the study of other religions (eastern) and from our studies in our Sabbath school class:

Satan's argument had to be very convincing to get one third of the angels to side with him--right? Then wouldn't it be a good argument to use on humans too? So how about the argument you, oldsailor, brought up—that for everything their must be an opposite? The yin and yang so to speak. The hands of Buddha held together. The foundation for eastern and new age religion.

It stems from the tree of good and evil. (do you like that pun?) As I see things (yes, I know it is not what you believe), Lucifer was sent to this earth with his angels after creation of mankind (not the same time as Adam) to watch over the humans and teach them the knowledge of God. But Lucifer taught them that he was their god and his angels were the sons of god. Lucifer had humans set up civilized nations all over the earth for who knows how long, and there came a time when the real God was not remembered as the one who created all things. This is when the war was in heaven and Lucifer was thrown down to this world. (But I may be wrong on this for Lucifer went to heaven to ask about Job after this—but it appears that Lucifer had already sinned and was called Satan at that time).

Adam was then made out of this earth and then placed in the Garden with the tree of good and evil to test him to make sure Adam would make a good witness to the rest of the world on who the God of Creation was. This is the reason why he was placed into the garden so that the evil people outside could not get in.

I want to keep this short, so I will not continue as I did in my ‘writing’ called “In The Beginning” which can be seen at www.spiritoftruthministry.net

Any thoughts?

Well Dr. Rich, I think you should have taken the other side, which doesn't require faith and grace. It's very difficult to argue a point effectively when you don't believe it.

Lucifer's argument was very convincing. He argued on the basis of what could be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and felt. His argument was what we call existentialism. No one had ever seen God create anything, so evolution was a natural argument. Lucifer argued that God had evolved ahead of everybody else, and was holding all of them back from advancing with His laws. Lucifer thus argued that God was a tyrant. This is what the snake was saying to Eve, in the garden of Eden. He told her she could be like God. Some people teach the same thing today. It is still a good convincing argument. This was Lucifer's first great deception. All of his deceptions reflect an above average IQ, I would estimate about 110.

I'm not sure my statement about the nature of all reality being a oneness of opposites holds up where good and evil are concerned. I mean, after the great controversy is over and evil is destroyed, there will remain only good, and there will be no evil. I suppose one could say that the good will be in our world, and evil will be cast into outer darkness. That way, the opposites would still exist, but just wouldn't be so close to each other.

Evil in heaven? Well of course evil can be in heaven. That is where it originated. In fact, God said that He created evil.(Isa. 45:7)

I have never heard your creation story before. I don't see the need for Lucifer and company to have organized Earth's inhabitants before Adam and Eve were created. I haven't seen any scripture which supports that story. But then you said you knew it was not my belief.

Would you like some really interesting reading? I'm going to give you a link, Michael S. Heiser, I could be wrong, but I think you might find this fellow's writings very interesting.

[BobRyan]

As to where our sins go when we confess them, they are sent before hand to judgment and "forgiven" is written there beside every sin that has been confessed but they are not yet cancelled. In the investigative judgment if the records reveal no unconfessed or unforsaken sins, all the sins that had been sent beforehand to judgment will be blotted out and put on the scapegoat. But if the records reveal that there are unconfessed sins or unforsaken sins, all these sins will fall back on the head of the sinner and he will lose his eternal life.

This is taught in the sanctuary service.

How am i doing? Your thoughts,

sky

All good - thanks for posting it.

But remember that the sanctuary is not telling us "when" you are forgiven it is instead proving that a forgiven and born-again person becomes that Matt 7 "good tree" that produced "good fruit" just as Christ said.

It is "revealing what already is".

Hence Enoch and Elijah - fully forgiven and IN HEAVEN before the Sanctuary service even begins!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Oldsailor and RH--Happy Sabbath! Boy, we had a lively program this morning on the issue of 'faith'. I was wishing you two could have been with us to give the listners your side or opinion. I tried to be the one for your side, but I didn't do very well. The program is always live with live call in listeners participating. Today's show was a real fun one because of the info. I got from this forum. Thanks guys!

[Richard Holbrook]

[Richard Holbrook]

I'm not laughing at you Dr. Rich, I know how sensative you are. But you do seem to have a flair for the outlandish.

[Dr. Rich]

LoL, no, I don't mind it a bit. I might seem sensitive, but I have learned in ten years, what we say now might not be important anymore. I do get frustrated as a mother watching her child running into the street all the time. And you already know I am very passionate for the words of Jesus. Look, I love you guys regardless of your opinions. I shake my head too at some of the things written here. Isn't that what all of this is for?

But I don't have to live with you---oh, ya, my wife treats me like you do to over much of this so I am real use to it. And my sister--Kay Kuzma--she has fits with it sometimes.

One thing I am blessed with is lots of friends, most of whom do not understand where I am coming from most of the time. But they know I am honest and would give the shirt off my back to anyone needing it. Being brought up in the same house with three sisters who are well known in the SDA community will do that to you.

[Richard Holbrook]

I grew up SDA with three sisters also. I'm the youngest.

[LifeHiscost]

LHC, did you see what EGW said?

Do you mean about removing our sins from the sanctuary? Yes, I believe the good news about casting our sins into the depth of the sea is most likely a metaphor. It is doubtful anyone can go to the bottom of the sea and stumble over our forgiven sins. However, for peace of mind, I find it very easy to accept the removal of sins from our souls, by the blood of Jesus, descriptively revealed by such metaphor. Hope you do too.

God bless!

[Robert]

So you really know more about the sanctuary than EGW? And to think, I've got all those books, and cd rom and what not.Can I start quoting you?

As to EGW:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

[Robert]

..there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. {FLB 207.3}

So the cross didn't take care of guilty and punishment for sin? What did Paul say? "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement