When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Their robes must be spotless...

IF I must be spotless to gain heaven I'm under law again....That's legalism...who are you kidding?

Peter wasn't.

" Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless"2 Peter 3:14 NKJV

As well as;

" Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV

When God is willing to do it for all who will submit to Him, why do you find it necessary to cloud the issue with all this smokescreen of legalism, when you could just take Him at His Word and find security in His promises.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11

We don't have to keep repeating the same sins over and over. If we choose to do this we will grieve the Holy Spirit.

The work of sactification may take a lifetime, but it is a work that we have to allow God to do in us never the less.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 24

And the Holy Spirit is willing to give those promises to any who believe in Jesus. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.

Blessings!

[Twilight]

I had a little talk with God and He told me I was perfect.

Really?

He didn't tell you that you were a sinner saved by grace?

That any perfection you may claim is imparted and imputed to you because of the blood of Jesus?

[LifeHiscost]

What truth is it that we must know to be saved?

"...through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.'"

Acts 15:11 YLT

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Native Americans were more in tune with what God wanted from people than those Europeans who came over to North America and tried to "civilize" the "savages".... their respect for the Great Spirit coincided more with God's love and honor than the European ideology.

I think there will be a lot of people in heaven who haven't heard of the 10 commandments. Only God knows what is in someone's heart, and IF it is in one's heart to obey God, even though they haven't heard the scriptures, I think God will honor that. Nature declares the glory of God. IMHO.

I'm not sure I understand all that is entailed in,

"And Jesus said, `Father, forgive them, for they have not known what they do"Luke 23:34 YLT

Especially when at God's command, whole nations were dispossessed of the property they occupied.

I wonder if we will be judged as a "Christian nation" when we, as those who received the legacy of our forbears, walk on the bones of those who died at the hands of "Christian

conquerors".

And then there's always the prosperity of the nation that came from slave labor.

Seems to me we're going to be saved by our individual trust, one by one, in a loving and merciful Saviour, not by good group therapy.

My understanding of the Scripture leads me to believe we will be saved one by one. Not in groups.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Law keeping without love is missing the point, and missing God's power to work in the life. To keep the law without a heart conversion is a type of self-made imitation of conversion.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing....And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

1 Cor 13:1-3,13 NKJV

Blessings!

[Dr. Rich]

Gail wrote: "Law keeping without love is missing the point, and missing God's power to work in the life. To keep the law without a heart conversion is a type of self-made imitation of conversion."

Gail--and others, have you not ever read the ten commandments? It is all about love! (Ex. 20:6) What I read here on this thread blows me away--people thinking that someone can keep the ten commandments without loving God or his fellow man! Sorry, but there should not be any question or issue on this. If one actually keeps all ten commandments, then they will also be loving God and man.

[Richard Holbrook]

If one actually keeps all ten commandments, then they will also be loving God and man.

Finally something we agree on. Do you love me Dr. Rich?

[Dr. Rich]

LOL--Ubetcha! That is why I am so passionate in trying to get people to read and obey the words of Jesus! I want as many people as we can get to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Musicman1228]

Original by rudywoofs:

I think there will be a lot of people in heaven who haven't heard of the 10 commandments. Only God knows what is in someone's heart, and IF it is in one's heart to obey God, even though they haven't heard the scriptures, I think God will honor that.

He will up to a point, and that final point is the Great Tribulation. After the Censer is cast down and the first of the 7 trumpets sounds everyone that is alive on earth will be required to make a decision for or against the Covenant of God which is the 10 Commandments. By acknowledging and keeping the Law/Covenant and knowing the truth of that one is then sealed into the Kingdom of Heaven with the seal of the Living God. By remaining lawless and not acknowledging and keeping the Law/Covenant one is sealed with the Mark of the Beast. This mark is the mark of lawlessness.

There will be many who died before the Great Trib who did not understand the significance of or had the opportunity to learn about the Covenant who will wake up to eternal life and have to learn what it was they missed while on earth. God does not condemn anyone to eternal death who was not given the full opportunity to know and understand the truth. On the other hand if you are in the Kingdom of Heaven and live to reach the decision point, which for the Kingdom of Heaven happens before the Great Trib begins, and you fail to learn the truth because you reject the opportunity you will be lost forever. This group is represented by the 5 foolish bridesmaids in Matt.25:1-13 who are left outside the marriage feast where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Richard Holbrook]

LOL--Ubetcha! That is why I am so passionate in trying to get people to read and obey the words of Jesus! I want as many people as we can get to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I do read and obey the words of Jesus.

[Gail]

Gail wrote: "Law keeping without love is missing the point, and missing God's power to work in the life. To keep the law without a heart conversion is a type of self-made imitation of conversion."

Gail--and others, have you not ever read the ten commandments? It is all about love! (Ex. 20:6) What I read here on this thread blows me away--people thinking that someone can keep the ten commandments without loving God or his fellow man! Sorry, but there should not be any question or issue on this. If one actually keeps all ten commandments, then they will also be loving God and man.

Not necessarily. That was the rich young ruler's stumblingblock.

[Richard Holbrook]

Good point Gail

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If one actually keeps all ten commandments, then they will also be loving God and man.

Not necessarily. That was the rich young ruler's stumblingblock.

Perhaps there is more than one facet to viewing the gift of love, as revealed in the Scriptures.

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Matt 25:37-40 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

We need to be born again.

"Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'"John 3:3 YLT

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

You don't think Buddha or Gandhi will be in heaven? There are many Buddhist who are more selfless than many Christians. What matters to God is what is in the heart.

Despite what many might think being selfless is, when we are, that of itself does not give us entrance into the kingdom. Otherwise we would be able to say with anyone else, 'I'm a good person. God won't keep a good person out of the kingdom'?

It's a subtle form of salvation by works.

There is only one way into the kingdom. If a person is doing something worthwhile for a God he recognizes he hasn't met yet, who are we to say that the Creator of the Universe wouldn't introduce Himself when they finally met , face to face?

However, if a person is worshiping Buddha as God, the Bible clearly indicates there is none other name, given among men, whereby we must be saved. The way I read and understand that, Buddha just doesn't fill the bill.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”" Acts 4:12 NKJV

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

BTW, EGW disagrees with you: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Now look at Christ....He was educated, but all He did was without Himself in mind....Sure, by taking on our humanity, He had to eat and get out of the rain, but besides these basic necessities all He did was for others. That's where you and I are falling short, but yet you insist that believers are fulling keeping the law as Christ did. I say baloney.

Well, let's see now, that mansion Jesus has gone to prepare for me, who shall I give that to? And the crown I received from Jesus, who would be thinking of self enough to accept it if I gave it to them? And would they be honest if the stars in the crown that reflect the people I was instrumental in leading to Jesus, were on their head?

And all those things Jesus has promised to the members of the seven churches who overcome. Who will we find willing to accept them when all are too selfless to accept anything from anyone, including the things Jesus and the Father give for being faithful?

And I wonder if the prayer we were told to pray, about not leading us into temptation, is answered when Jesus tempts us with things He's willing to give us for being faithful, but being totally selfless we are unable to accept?

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If the agape love that I have for myself is evil, why then would Christ ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love/

You are massively confused....Gerry, this is rather simple....We can skip all this and go directly to someone who lived the law -- Jesus Christ.

Now look to His selfless life....That's agape. Are you living His life? If not, why? Answer: Self-love

Now that's certainly an adroit sidestep.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself, which if I understand you correctly means I am to take that natural love for myself that I was born with and direct it to my neighbor. But you say that kind of love for self is evil, did you not? That's why I bring up the question, if my natural love for self is evil, why would Jesus ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love?

Gerry, It makes perfect logic. However, one who dismisses half of God's Word will not be able to understand the logic until all the Word is accepted. Slicing and dicing leave the Holy Spirit with no coherent way of communicating the language of Life.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

We are talking about the commandment that says: Love your neighbor as yourself, which if I understand you correctly means I am to take that natural love for myself that I was born with and direct it to my neighbor. But you say that kind of love for self is evil, did you not? That's why I bring up the question, if my natural love for self is evil, why would Jesus ask me to love my neighbor with an evil love?

Makes perfect sense to me. "as" means the same as, not instead of.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Quote:

Their robes must be spotless...

IF I must be spotless to gain heaven I'm under law again....That's legalism...who are you kidding?

" Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV

When God is willing to do it for all who will submit to Him, why do you find it necessary to cloud the issue with all this smokescreen of legalism, when you could just take Him at His Word and find security in His promises.

This is laughable! You legalists are always looking to the future for perfection...your salvation! It's always the future, not now. Well, what if you died now? Oh vain man, you are perfect "in Christ" now!

The 144,000 will experience "the faith of Jesus", which is different than "faith in Jesus". The last generation, I believe, will experience "agape" to its fullest. The problem with EGW's statement is she says, "their robes MUST be spotless"! She's making perfection a means of salvation. That's legalism, but she grew as she aged.

The thing is this - even though the last generation of believers reflect God's selfless love, this doesn't mean they are saved by these fruits.....We are always saved by JBF....Works do not add one iota to our position "in Christ". But folks like you keep acting as if they do....Well, that's why I use the word legalist for folks like yourself. Deal with it.

And, BTW, here's perfection:

Col 1:21 He [God] has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Phil 3:9 ....concerning the righteousness which is in the law, (I, Paul, was) blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as dung, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained [perfection], or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

[LifeHiscost]

Maybe someone should have told Jesus He couldn't see past the cross.

Jesus was dying the death that all who refuse to accept His plan of salvation will suffer, the second death, without hope or redemption. He was taking the penalty for all sins that had been committed. Any who accept that sacrifice for them, need never face the same penalty.

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"Psalm 22:1 KJV

" And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"Matthew 27:46

KJV

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You are massively confused....Gerry, this is rather simple....We can skip all this and go directly to someone who lived the law -- Jesus Christ.

Now look to His selfless life....That's agape. Are you living His life? If not, why? Answer: Self-love

Now that's certainly an adroit sidestep.

Regards!

No, to understand "agape" one needs to look to Christ's life....The legalist always look to the law (words written on stone).....Look at Christ's selfless life then there will be less legalism & self-righteous in your own life.

The problem with our love is that it's bent towards self....Take that self-love and project it to your neighbor instead. That's what Jesus is telling us....That's perfection....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

" Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit' date=' soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV

When God is willing to do it for all who will submit to Him, why do you find it necessary to cloud the issue with all this smokescreen of legalism, when you could just take Him at His Word and find security in His promises. [/quote']

This is laughable! You legalists are always looking to the future for perfection...your salvation! It's always the future, not now. Well, what if you died now? Oh vain man, you are perfect "in Christ" now!

The 144,000 will experience "the faith of Jesus", which is different than "faith in Jesus". The last generation, I believe, will experience "agape" to its fullest. The problem with EGW's statement is she says, "their robes MUST be spotless"! She's making perfection a means of salvation. That's legalism, but she grew as she aged.

The thing is this - even though the last generation of believers reflect God's selfless love, this doesn't mean they are saved by these fruits.....We are always saved by JBF....Works do not add one iota to our position "in Christ". But folks like you keep acting as if they do....Well, that's why I use the word legalist for folks like yourself. Deal with it.

And, BTW, here's perfection:

Col 1:21 He [God] has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Phil 3:9 ....concerning the righteousness which is in the law, (I, Paul, was) blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as dung, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained [perfection], or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Why are you so determind to remove "works" from the Gospel?

Are we saved "in" our sins Robert?

You are correct in stating that works do not contribute to our "acceptance" with God, only the "Merits of Christ" will give us that acceptance.

But when we by faith lay hold of His merits the following happens:

1. Holy Spirit is given.

2. Clothed in the robe of righteousness.

3. New heart is give that is inclined to love God through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

4. Love for God results in desire for obedience.

5. The power of the "word" rewrites our hearts and desires through the ministration of the Holy Spirit (Gods love is shed abroad in our hearts).

6. Obedience results.

7. Obedience produces works which "Glorify God".

When we understand that the purpose of our works is to "glorify God", then we will not be seeking to be justified by it, but will seek to show our love to God, through our works.

It is for this "work" that we are rewarded.

Imagine that, rewarded for that which Christ gives us totally...

Mark :-)

[Richard Holbrook]

The problem with EGW's statement is she says, "their robes MUST be spotless"! She's making perfection a means of salvation. That's legalism,

Let me get this straight. Now you're calling Ellen White a legalist too?