When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[John317]

John: I was responding to your statement about Paul quoting from "NT" scripture in 1 Timothy. You said that it showed that "NT" literature was in use in Paul's time, or did I misunderstand.

I would be interested to know which books not in the New Testament you believe are inspired or should have been included, if any. For instance, do you accept any of the Gnostic writings or perhaps the Didache as from God?

[Robert]

Pure, unadulterated heresy!!! This is the doctrine of devils....

Huh, left the "un" out....

[Gerr]

Quote:

And how is this change manifested? How do we know there has been a change?

Please don't tell me from looking to the law...because if you are honest the more you understand the law the less you look righteous....The greater your distance from God the greater your sense of your own righteousness.....

Ah, you talk about a little change. You talk a lot about agape. You acknowledge some fruit in the believer. But when you are asked what is the proof of this change? this agape? How do you KNOW we KNOW Him? How do we KNOW we are "IN HIM?" You suddenly clam up and divert the discussion to something else because you don't like the answer.

The Apostle John is very clear and explicit about the litmus test. And here it is:

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-5 ESV.

"If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him." 1 Jn 2:29 ESV

There is a paradox in the Christian life: The closer you come to Christ, the more you see your imperfections even though the believer is becoming more obedient.

-

[Richard Holbrook]

2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Cr 2:12 Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,

How is Paul's gospel any different than the gospel of Christ? I tend to agree with Robert on this. Heresy!! doctrine of devils.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Richard Holbrook]

different topic

[Richard Holbrook]

Gerry, he was refuting the gospel of musicman and Dr. Rich, etc.

[BobRyan]

You have apparently accepted the Papal system's version of how we got our NT. We don't owe the Catholic Church and the councils a debt of gratitude for the NT books.

The books in the NT were accepted by Christians before the time of Constantine.

Amen!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

Read the history. There were many "Christian" scriptures, among these were, Gnostic gospels, Messianic gospels, Coptic gospels, Acts of John, Acts of Paul, Acts of Peter, Acts of Pilate, Acts of Thecla, Acts of Thomas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, 3 Corinthians, Correspondence of Paul and Seneca, The Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, Letter to the Laodiceans, Letter of Peter to James and its Reception, Letter of Ptolemy to Flora, The Preaching of Peter, Pseudo-Clementine Literature, Pseudo-Titus, Treatise on the Resurrection, Apocalypse of Paul, Apocalypse of Peter, Epistle of the Apostles, Gospel according to the Hebrews, Gospel of the Ebionites, to name a few!

There was always a big difference between the authority of the books that made up the NT and the books you name above. Believers didn't accept the above books in the church as a whole, in the way the churches accepted the books of the NT.

It didn't require a council to tell Christians what books were inspired and which were not inspired. As I said, the councils merely gave their approval to beliefs that the churches already had regarding the various books.

See a comparison:

http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml

Thank you for posting that.

However I have noticed that with "some people" -- EVERY TOPIC (yes even this topic on character and living without sinning) is a "so what do you think the Bible is" topic.

That gets old after a while.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-5 ESV.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "When you study the writings of Paul, are you telling us that you do not hear the voice of God, by the Holy Spirit, convicting you and speaking to your minds and hearts?"

"And if you don't hear God speaking to you in those books, who do you hear when you study the Epistles of Paul, Peter, the books of James, Hebrews, Acts, Luke?"

John, I for one can honestly tell you that I have NEVER heard the voice of God. This is not saying that I have not felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. I want you to try something--go to blogtalkradio.com and listen to some of the new age programs. There they will have you listen to their music and tell you to relax and listen fo the voice of God. You will hear all sorts of people tell you what they are hearing and many probably really believe the voice they are hearing is Jesus or God the Father.

Once, I heard someone repeat the words of what was supposed to be Jesus talking to her. They were sweet and creamy and at the time I thought how easy a thing for Satan or the demons to do with people who THINK they are having a relationship with Jesus!

Therefore, when I read or hear of reports of people 'hearing the voice of God' I am very suspicious for many people have killed others because they said they heard God tell them to do it.

And--as for reading the words from Paul, Luke, Hebrews James 1 and 2nd Peter--what I am finding since knowing what Jesus said and taught--are many conflicts and contradictions. As for me, I choose to follow the words of Jesus. So why is it that you have a problem with this? I have attempted to have people prove their belief from only the words of Jesus and most of you refuse to do that. That is your choice.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "The problem is that because you perceive contradictions, you take it upon yourselves to try to persuade others in the church to reject the Apostle Paul."

Please let me correct you John--No, WE do NOT try to persuade ANYONE--not in any church--to reject Paul. You have twisted this whole issue into a war within the church. Here is what WE do: We present the same words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses to be the test for what Jesus said would bring unity to our church. Jesus said there can only be one house that will stand and that is His words! Now-if you feel threatened by this, then that is your choice.

As for believing what Jesus said was true?--IF salvation can't be found in the words of Jesus and the Old Testament then we should all give up and do evil. And Gerry presented us with the real test: "The Apostle John is very clear and explicit about the litmus test. And here it is:

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-5 ESV.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-5 ESV.

As I've stated before the context isn't about the law. Re-read it....

I re-read it. It still says the same. It is about the commandments - the law.

Quote:

Quote:

The closer you come to Christ, the more you see your imperfections even though the believer is becoming more obedient.

-

Ah, but that's falling short....Either I'm fully living Christ's life or I'm not....The first is obedience, the 2nd is falling short....

So, if I am to measure myself by the law I will never have assurance....Isn't that what the legalists ultimately want? Then they can glory in their in themselves....

Your assurance is NEVER in the law. Your assurance is in Christ. Your assurance is never in how successful you are in keeping the law. Rather, are you obeying from the heart? Out of love? You may "fall short", but - "When it is in the heart to obey God, and effort is put forth toward that end....." you know the rest.

[Richard Holbrook]

HEY GERRY! How are you?

[John317]

**BUMP**

Dr Rich, Musicman and others.

I want to make this very plain and very clear.

Should folks want to challenge some adventist thought and adventist thinking that is fine, but it will be done here in a private forum with those interested may join,

This is not a place for those coming home, and having to constantly defend defend defend, that gets old have the first day or two.

We have not invested thousands of dollars into advertising and hosting to have this be a punching bag.

When that happens people just leave, they get tired of it and just go elsewhere.

If you want more of a public message board, I would be happy to host a blog for you, for the cost I have... about $3-4 per month..

Thoughts?

[John317]

John wrote: "When you study the writings of Paul, are you telling us that you do not hear the voice of God, by the Holy Spirit, convicting you and speaking to your minds and hearts?"

"And if you don't hear God speaking to you in those books, who do you hear when you study the Epistles of Paul, Peter, the books of James, Hebrews, Acts, Luke?"

John, I for one can honestly tell you that I have NEVER heard the voice of God.

The voice of God=voice of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit=God. The Scriptures are the word of God. He speaks to us through the word. He doesn't speak to us contrary to His word. For instance, God will never tell us to preach a gospel contrary to what He has already revealed through His servants the prophets.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

As I've stated before the context isn't about the law. Re-read it....[/quote']

I re-read it. It still says the same. It is about the commandments - the law.

Context:

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Okay, let's see what His commands are:

4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command [singular] but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

While loving your brother is in harmony with the law Jesus isn't speaking of the whole law.

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "He doesn't speak to us contrary to His word. For instance, God will never tell us to preach a gospel contrary to what He has already revealed through His servants the prophets."

Where is His Word found? If God will never tell us to preach a gospel contrary to what He has already given us then why did Paul say:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.   (9) As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:8-9.

Is this the gospel that you are speaking of, John? Because here Paul says that there are two gospels, one the he is preaching and another that his converts are listening too. He tells them that even if an angel from Heaven comes to them and preaches a gospel other than the one he has told them that angel is to be accursed. Accursed? How can an angel from heaven preach a gospel other than the true gospel?

So how do you tell which gospel is the correct one? Is there a standard against which you can measure any gospel to find out if it is true? And if there isn't a standard then how can God judge as to who is on His side and who is not. Oh, I forgot; there are some who believe that God does not judge anyone and does not care whether they are of His kingdom; He is going to save everyone because He loves them.

[Dr. Rich]

So tell me John, just how do you tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit? And while you are thinking about this, just remember that Satan is not called the great deceiver because he is not good at it.

From what I have learned, the Holy Spirit will NOT share a 'body' with the evil spirit. That is why the test that Gerry presented is so important. How many people in this world actually keep all of the Ten Commandments today? I would guess not many. When people say that keeping the ten commandments will not get you to heaven they forget the first three commandments--and IF you keep them, then you will have only one God and truly worship Him and obey Him--meaning you will have complete trust in Him.

As for my thoughts on what you wrote John (or Stan), I should have realized that there was some type of commercialism to this forum. I see the same thing happening to the SDA Church. It is all about numbers so they can make more money. They attempt to have their church programs be pleasant and entertaining so more people will attend. Yes, I read the article in the 'Review' about how to make your church grow--give the people what they want to hear-kind of like a bar. Isn't this what the false prophets did in the Old Testament? (Sad!) Watch out! The STORM is coming!

As for me, I don't believe that being a bondservant should involve any commercial activity at all. Isn't that why Jesus cleaned up His Father's house just before Passover--twice? If one can't defend their belief in an honest way, then perhaps their foundation for their house (belief) might not be the solid rock of the words of Jesus

[John317]

John317 said, "He doesn't speak to us contrary to His word. For instance, God will never tell us to preach a gospel contrary to what He has already revealed through His servants the prophets."

Where is His Word found? If God will never tell us to preach a gospel contrary to what He has already given us then why did Paul say:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.   (9) As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:8-9.

Is this the gospel that you are speaking of, John? Because here Paul says that there are two gospels, one the he is preaching and another that his converts are listening too.

An unfallen angel who is from heaven won't give a different gospel but we know that Satan and the fallen angels as well as people who work for Satan do give a different gospel, and they try to persuade people to pervert and doubt the truth of the Bible.

Paul is not saying there are two distinct gospels that are equally valid. Paul's language shows that he is contrasting the gospel with a different "gospel,"-- a so-called "gospel" that contradicted the gospel that Paul preached.

So Paul is talking about a gospel of a different kind [Gk. "hetero"]. It's a false gospel. It's not the same gospel that Paul was preaching. It is different and contrary to the one true gospel.

In v. 6, Paul speaks of

"a different [even an opposition] gospel." See Amplified Bible.

"7 Not that there is [or could be] any other [genuine Gospel], but [a message].... with a different kind of teaching ....

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be anathema...

9 As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be anathema."

So you can see that Paul is not saying there are two equally valid gospels. His language makes it plane that he's contrasting the one true gospel with a different message that is a false gospel.

Quote:

He tells them that even if an angel from Heaven comes to them and preaches a gospel other than the one he has told them that angel is to be accursed. Accursed? How can an angel from heaven preach a gospel other than the true gospel?

It means that if people come and preach a gospel that is contrary to the gospel in the Bible-- as, for instance, when someone tells us that Paul taught lies-- we may know that their message does not come from God.

Did Satan teach Eve the truth at the tree? Obviously not. He was an angel from heaven but a fallen one. Naturally he didn't tell Eve he was fallen. He tried to make Eve believe that God lied. The Holy Spirit is warning us in passages such as Galatians 1 that we are not to listen to those who bring a message which contradicts the previous messages sent from God.

[Tom Wetmore]

After 30 forum pages it definitely bears repeating again:

I think we drifted a bit far from what EGW was talking about in the quote from COL.

Gail, the answer to your question is right close by that oft quoted but frequently misconstrued sentence.

That quote appears at the end of the chapter, which means that one should carefully read that whole chapter to get an idea from the immediate context exactly what a perfect reproduction of Christ's character would be like. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

The chapter is talking about the parable of the sower. EGW spends a majority of her words in that chapter setting up the process of growth of the plant to maturity. She correctly points out Who makes it happen and the extent of the contribution of the sower and the seed to the final result.

The harvest happens when the reaper can see the ripe fruit. It is based on this ripe fruit ready for harvest metaphor that EGW makes the quote in question. But it is in the immediately preceding two short paragraphs that she clearly states exactly what that perfectly reproduced character of Christ is and what that ripe fruit of His character really looks like.

Here are the two paragraphs:

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. - COL 68-69.

Let's not make it any more complicated than she meant it to be. Jesus said it ever so simply - "People will know that you are my followers by your love for one another." The sweet smell of ripe fruit is hard to hide.

Tom

[Robert]

He tells them that even if an angel from Heaven comes to them and preaches a gospel other than the one he has told them that angel is to be accursed. Accursed? How can an angel from heaven preach a gospel other than the true gospel?

Where's Lucifer from? All false, legalistic gospels come from him....Case closed

[Robert]

Paul says that there are two gospels, one the he is preaching and another that his converts are listening too.

The popular one that the Galatians were listening to is the one popular today: You must help God so that He can save you!

Instead, the true gospel tells us that "in Christ" we stand perfect now and in the judgment....The false gospel focuses the law and adherence to it. It is a system of salvation based in pride & iniquity. In fact EGW states that all pagan religions are based on the idea that mankind can save himself through his own good works....

[Robert]

It means that if people come and preach a gospel that is contrary to the gospel in the Bible-- as, for instance, when someone tells us that Paul taught lies-- we may know that their message does not come from God.

John is being nice, Musicman1228, but this is directed to you....I agree with John....

[Richard Holbrook]

This is to Musicman and Dr. Rich: (and whoever else wants to read it)

I went to your website and read about the 144,000 and about Jesus being crucified on wednesday and being resurrected on the sabbath, and some other stuff. I didn't read the whole website, but I read enough.

First of all, anytime somebody has to throw out Ellen G. White and most of the New Testament in order to back up what they believe, I normally don't give them a second glance. I know at that point already that what they have is not from God. The reason I kept reading as long as I did, I guess was out of curiosity. That and you call yourselves Adventists.

If you don't believe that God was able to preserve his word down through the ages, and keep herecy out of it, then what makes you believe they got the words of Jesus right? After all if Satan was allowed to tamper with the word of God to the extent you say, don't you think he would go after the words of Christ even more?

You say on your website that righteousness is not a gift. You say it's something you learn.

If that is true and it's not a gift then it is your own righteousness.

If it's something you have to learn, then what about the thief on the cross? He didn't have time to learn anything. I guess Jesus' Righteousness will have to do for him, no?

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matt. 6:33

He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Ps 24:5

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isa 64:6

And yes I will quote Paul even though you think it's of the devil, because I have not thrown him out as you have. He taught the gospel of Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2Pet 1:1

You said we are not saved by his blood or his death. If that is true then why did he have to die in the first place?

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt 26:28

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jn 6:53,54

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

So much of what I read was just speculation and innuendo, that I am surprised you have allowed yourselves to become so heavily invested in this. But because you have it is going to be hard to turn back now.

I submit to you that if you don't turn back, and stop trying to teach this error to others as the truth, you are going to lose your very souls. You are following the teachings of one man, (Rick Sterling) who has done away with large portions of scripture and Ellen White. Do you not find this strange and extreme?

She saw this coming though and predicted it. So I know that time is short.

I can back up what I believe with the Bible alone, but I would never presume that I could throw parts of it out the window because it dosn't go along with what I'm trying to make fit. If the Bible dosn't coincide with your beliefs or vise versa, that right there tells you something is wrong.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim 3:16

[Dr. Rich]

Rich4Truth wrote: “First of all, anytime somebody has to throw out Ellen G. White and most of the New Testament in order to back up what they believe, I normally don't give them a second glance.”

It is clear from your diatribe that you have NOT even taken a second glance much less taken the time to actually study what is written on the website you claim you ‘glanced’ at. If you treat the bible the same way, shame on you. Almost everything that this Sabbath School class has learned came from in-depth study—something that obviously you refuse to do. Surface swimmers never get to see the whole picture.

You also wrote “If it's something you have to learn, then what about the thief on the cross? He didn't have time to learn anything. I guess Jesus' Righteousness will have to do for him, no?”

The story about the thief on the cross can only be found in Luke. However, even IF this story is true, you didn’t read enough to understand the difference between ‘justification’ and ‘sanctification’. You would have seen that when a person repents honestly, that they are then justified – but they must keep seeking the truth and giving up the lies that they have learned. If one dies during their search for truth-grace is what saves them. Here is the thing: 1) There is a major difference between those who die and failing to learn the whole truth (which no one has so far) from those who are alive during the time of trouble where they will have a chance to make a choice for truth. 2) IF this person who has repented turns around and stops searching for the truth feeling they are safe where they are, then they have a good chance of being lost during the time of trouble. (Of course you didn’t ‘glance’ enough to pick this up.)

You also wrote verses from Paul where he said we are saved by grace and not by works. If that is true, they why are you a SDA? Why profess to keeping any of the ten commandments? You can’t have your cake and eat it too!

Then you wrote a verse from 2Peter 1:1 and actually believe that Peter the disciple wrote this? If you would have taken more then just a ‘glance’ you would have found the evidence supporting the fact that Peter could NOT have written this.

And, why did Jesus have to die? You certainly didn’t read enough to find the answer to this either, did you? It’s simple—you and I would not have been here IF Adam had been killed on the day he ate of the tree of learning good and evil. His death was to pay the PENALTY for ONLY Adam and those of us that accept what He did because if we refuse to accept this then when we try to pay our own penalty it just wouldn’t work—it would be the 2nd death. Jesus’ death was exactly what the death of the Passover Lamb was all about—it saved ONLY those who obey what He commanded His bondservants to do. Adam’s death did not pay any penalty for it was not the second death. Adam was created mortal and would have died even IF he had never eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil—except for the fact that he still had access to the tree of life.

And then you wrote “So much of what I read was just speculation and innuendo, that I am surprised you have allowed yourselves to become so heavily invested in this. But because you have it is going to be hard to turn back now.”

You accuse me of participating in speculation and innuendo. Yes, I will admit that some of what you will read is speculation, but when that is done I also tell you it is theory or speculation. As for the rest—please be my guest and show me or prove to me what you wrote, for the most part it slanders what is the real truth—not the trooth you have allowed yourself to build your house on. As what I have done every time someone says the stuff you alleged, show me and prove it by using the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses! If you can do that—then I will gladly change. Can you say the same? IF not, then you can’t say that Paul’s gospel is the same as Jesus’ gospel.