An Appeal To SDA's On This Site

[oldsailor29]

Whether writing, reading, speaking, smiling, or gesturing, improving one's communication skills does not constitute hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is being or doing something which you would deny others the freedom to be or do. A person who is trained in communication skills is more likely to recognize that training in others. To deny others the use of improved communication skills is being hypocritical.

However, a line has been drawn which should not be crossed, but it has been. We should not do dramatic presentations of the gospel. "Faith For Today" did that for many years, and may still be doing it for all I know. We do skits and plays, and we allow our children to do skits and plays depicting sharing our faith and our end time messages. This should never happen. It is part of our feebleness and defect as a church. We should ask and be forgiven for those things.

[Richard Holbrook]

So you're the actor. hmmmm, interesting.

[Musicman1228]

No Richard, I am not an actor. I gave it up for Lent.

[Richard Holbrook]

Whether writing, reading, speaking, smiling, or gesturing, improving one's communication skills does not constitute hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is being or doing something which you would deny others the freedom to be or do.

Excactly

[Dr. Rich]

words have meanings and they may not be the same for everyone. Musicman simply gave you his meaning--as all lawyers in court are practing hypocrisy--and this is the good meaning. So please everyone, don't get your tail in a knot over this.

[Woody]

Quote:

"all lawyers in court are practing hypocrisy"

Such generalizations are not helpful. As far as I am concerned ... the word should be on the banned list.

[Richard Holbrook]

I say that there is only on profession more slimy than being an actor and that is a practicing attorney.

Are you calling Dr. Rich slimy?

[Musicman1228]

Oldsailor,

I happen to agree with you on this, which is what prompted my original comments. There are much better ways of training a young person (or anyone) to deliver the message of truth to the world rather than the training they would get in acting class.

Acting is one of the oldest and most subtle forms of mind control in the world. The stage acts as a subtle transition between reality and fantasy for the purpose of sucking the audience into the alternate reality of the play. Most people, and especially young people, never realize that this is happening to them. That is how most people define whether or not a movie or play was good or bad. If it did not get them to forget themselves and become fully involved in the lives of those on stage then the play was not effective therefore not good.

When I look at Doug B I can see someone that is highly trained in the art of moving people off center so that they can make a decision for Christ. It would surprise me greatly if he is not formally trained as in the thespian (acting) arts. It is my understanding that both of his parents are actors. What he has chosen to do with this skill is use it to show people what belief in Jesus Christ can do for them. My remarks about hypocrisy go to those people in the public eye that use their 'people moving' skills to get people to believe a lie as if it is the truth. Just look at Sunday morning religious TV as a prime example. I am sure Doug B believes in what he is presenting. My ONLY criticism is that I also believe that he is presenting exactly and only what the GC has told him he can present. However, I don't blame him for this, because for him to do otherwise would be counterproductive to his ministry and his livelihood. That control of content is why I could never become a paid minister for any denomination including SDA. It is by its very nature restrictive to the truth.

A trained actor can be a powerful tool for either good or evil, just look at Adam and Eve in the garden. The serpent (Satan) used his tremendous acting skills to fool Eve into believing a lie as if it were the truth. Adam, who what right there with her, became so caught up in the moment (that is what a good actor does) that he didn't put a stop to the play right then, and save us from the hassle we are all in right now.

And while acting can also be a powerful tool for good the origins of acting and its common purpose today of controlling the minds of the masses make using it for good very difficult and very dangerous-not only to the audience but also to the actor. As Adam and Eve found out first hand and actor is one of the most powerful forces for changing minds that there is. The temptation for the actor to use his art for evil is one of the most difficult temptations to resist.

So for me acting IS hypocrisy, and I have given it up so that I can find the truth and present the truth as God sees it not as I see it. As an actor it is way to easy to become so involved in the character you are playing that you forget who you really are in favor of the role, which is often more exciting than real life.

When we expose our SDA young people to the innate deceptions that are required for them to become good actors we are risking removing them from reality and truth and giving them an excuse to live in fantasy and lies. We are too close the the end of time for that to be an acceptable option for our church.

[Musicman1228]

There are a few honest lawyers; my brother who just died in a tragic accident was one, and Dr. Rich is another. Neither Don or Dr. Rich practiced law in court. The purpose of an attorney in a courtroom is to get their client acquitted regardless of their guilt or innocence. They do this by what ever means necessary, both fair and foul. In order to be successful in court a lawyer must be a good actor. Neither my brother Don or Dr. Rich have any acting skill what-so-ever. What you see is what you get. However, you might not like what you get because both have a tendency to tell it like it is. Most people have a problem with that level of honesty. The one thing that both my brother and Dr. Rich have is integrity, a rare thing in anyone today much less a lawyer.

[Musicman1228]

One final thing about acting and then I'm done; in order to be a good actor you must be a good liar. That is why I gave up acting and that is why even though Doug B may be trained in the acting arts he is not an actor. That is the distinction I have been looking for.

[Richard Holbrook]

Sorry to hear about your Brother.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Musicman

I say that there is only on profession more slimy than being an actor and that is a practicing attorney.

Are you calling Dr. Rich slimy?

[Musicman1228]

Redwood,

Why incite animosity with that statement? You must expect that will be the result. Either you believe what I said about Dr. Rich (and my brother) being men of integrity or you don't. If you don't then you are in essence saying you don't believe what I have said. Just because you may not agree with what I have said on this forum does not mean that my witness for my brother and Dr. Rich should be discounted out of hand. While you have a right think and believe anything you want (and I for one would never stop you from that) to imply that someone is slimy when you have testimony to the contrary means that you either were not listening, or just don't care who you hurt.

Your back handed comment suggesting that I think Dr. Rich is slimy tends to put you into the latter category. I hope this is not true.

(This kind of thing really annoys me because it takes civil discourse off the table.)

[Musicman1228]

Thank you Richard.

[LifeHiscost]

However, a line has been drawn which should not be crossed, but it has been. We should not do dramatic presentations of the gospel. "Faith For Today" did that for many years, and may still be doing it for all I know. We do skits and plays, and we allow our children to do skits and plays depicting sharing our faith and our end time messages. This should never happen. It is part of our feebleness and defect as a church. We should ask and be forgiven for those things.

Interesting point of view since, as a young seeker after Truth, those presentations by Faith for Today were one among others of the very important parts of a few highly instrumental means of motivation for leading me to commit my life to Jesus.

My wife and I are now looking at the old reruns, many that still bring tears to our eyes, as I see how God used these very skits to lead me to Jesus, when I didn't have spiritual knowledge enough to make the best choices.

I wonder how you accept the parables (stories) Jesus relates in order to motivate His listeners?

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Whether writing, reading, speaking, smiling, or gesturing, improving one's communication skills does not constitute hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is being or doing something which you would deny others the freedom to be or do.

Excactly

I always thought hypocrisy was secretly pretending to be someone or something you know you aren't or weren't.

"For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself."Galatians 6:3

AMP Parenthesis brackets theirs LHC

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

Regards!

[guibox]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

However, a line has been drawn which should not be crossed, but it has been. We should not do dramatic presentations of the gospel. "Faith For Today" did that for many years, and may still be doing it for all I know. We do skits and plays, and we allow our children to do skits and plays depicting sharing our faith and our end time messages. This should never happen. It is part of our feebleness and defect as a church. We should ask and be forgiven for those things.

I wonder how you accept the parables (stories) Jesus relates in order to motivate His listeners?

Regards!

Yes, no kidding LHC. oldsailor, the point of parables is valid. Why is it okay for Jesus to tell fictional stories and leave people's imaginations run wild to form their own pictures of what He is talking about, but somehow it is sinful to ACT those out in reality instead of thought??

Who exactly determined that skits and dramas in presenting the gospel is wrong and something that we need to 'be forgiven for those things'?

Come on now. Where is the biblical proof that such methods are wrong?

[oldsailor29]

I wonder how you accept the parables (stories) Jesus relates in order to motivate His listeners?

Regards!

[Richard Holbrook]

On a certain occasion, when Betterton, the celebrated actor, was dining with Dr. Sheldon, archbishop of Canterbury, the archbishop said to him, "Pray, Mr. Betterton, tell me why it is that you actors affect your audiences so powerfully by speaking of things imaginary." "My lord," replied Betterton, "with due submission to Your Grace, permit me to say that the reason is plain: It all lies in the power of enthusiasm. We on the stage speak of things imaginary as if they were real, and you in the pulpit speak of things real as if they were imaginary." {CT 255.1}

[WayneV]

What is {CT 255.1}?

[Richard Holbrook]

Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students. 1913. Mountain View, CA: Pacific Press Publishing Association,

EGW quote.

[WayneV]

Thanks

[guibox]

Dramatic presentations of the gospel are interpretations which can replace the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. People who have been indoctrinated in the gospel by skits and plays may not be able to grasp the deeper meanings contained in the parables, and may not understand the true nature of divine inspiration, and may not be able to see the deceptions promoted by them

And what deceptions might these be? If you said yourself that skits and drama are not in themselves sinful, and a skit is being used to promote truth in a visual setting, what are the 'deceptions'?

What you don't understand is that many people learn VISUALLY. They do not have strong audial processing abilities. The visual medium IS powerful. If it wasn't do you think the movie industry would be a trillion dollar industry? Some people are profoundly affected spiritually by what they see. God has made us physical and visual beings and that is part of how we learn.

I fail to understand how we can simply cut that aspect of spirituality off and stop others from being emotionally and spiritually affected in a positive light because we think truth should only be given in an audial sermon and that it is somehow sinful to use it to promote the gospel.

Oh please...

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Dramatic presentations of the gospel are interpretations which can replace the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. People who have been indoctrinated in the gospel by skits and plays may not be able to grasp the deeper meanings contained in the parables, and may not understand the true nature of divine inspiration, and may not be able to see the deceptions promoted by them

And what deceptions might these be? If you said yourself that skits and drama are not in themselves sinful, and a skit is being used to promote truth in a visual setting, what are the 'deceptions'?

What you don't understand is that many people learn VISUALLY. They do not have strong audial processing abilities. The visual medium IS powerful. If it wasn't do you think the movie industry would be a trillion dollar industry? Some people are profoundly affected spiritually by what they see. God has made us physical and visual beings and that is part of how we learn.

I fail to understand how we can simply cut that aspect of spirituality off and stop others from being emotionally and spiritually affected in a positive light because we think truth should only be given in an audial sermon and that it is somehow sinful to use it to promote the gospel.

Oh please...

I guess your post proves my point. It is difficult for some people to see how a powerful visual medium can be used to promote incorrect interpretations.

[Stewart (SDA)]

...

Dramatic presentations of the gospel are interpretations which can replace the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. People who have been indoctrinated in the gospel by skits and plays may not be able to grasp the deeper meanings contained in the parables, and may not understand the true nature of divine inspiration, and may not be able to see the deceptions promoted by them.

However, it seems I was wrong about presentations of plays and skits themselves being sinful, and I apologize to all concerned and in particular those associated with "Faith For Today." But even with the best of intentions, a play production can be a negative influence for good, if the interpretation thus presented is wrong.

Skits and theatricals in church is a subject that I feel quite strongly about. There are quite a number of thoughts in the Spirit of Prophecy on this. The following may be of interest for some:

"I have a message for those in charge of our work. Do not encourage the men who are to engage in this work to think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred message in a theatrical style.

Not one jot or tittle of anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything connected with the giving of the message for this time bear the divine impress. Let nothing of a theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the sacredness of the work."

(Evangelism p.137)

__________

Stewart.