How evolutionism destroys SDA theology

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Your second-last para is just inaccurate, Michael: there are *plenty* of 'evolutionary dead-end' species, in the sense that they don't have modern descendants.

You completely missed the point. The modern descendents should have generated millions upon millions of dead-end, unfunctional, disfigured fossils but there is a marked absence of such evidence.

Michael

True enough -- unless you like that "one lucky shot after another just-so lucky shot" myth.

The plasticity required in the genome for amoeba-to-man evolutionism myths about origins "to be true" just isn't there!

A huge problem when telling stories about something evolving into another species - "stories easy enough to make up ... but they are not science" as Colin Patterson would say.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

But even worse - regardless of whether you find evolutionism to fit your bias or not -- the OP statements stand confirmed - the doctrines of evolutionism destroy key doctrines -- starting with FB #1 as noted in the OP.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

That's right Bob.

[BobRyan]

Now see! Who says we cannot find harmonious agreement and unity on this topic?!!

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Michaeneu

I often here this response to substantive issues and that’s OK if one doesn’t mind standing with the scornful' date=' because that is exactly what evolutionist do concerning the 7 day Creation. Then again how can one who is truly saved allow Christ to be called a liar because even he declared that His Father made the first male and female, which rebukes evolution?

“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female…” Matt. 19:4

Michael

[/quote']Perhaps then you can give us a straight answer to the question.

It would really help if you really asked a specific question, Redwood. I thought you were just being snippy. What really doesn’t matter to you on this thread? Was it the 27 fundamental beliefs? Was it the truth about the creation? Did God create us? Did we come from lover animals and the primordial ooze before that? Or does the truth about anything really matter on this tread altogether? Your question was vague and so that is how I responded.

Michael

[BobRyan]

one cannot help but notice the enthusiasm and importance that Ellen White assigns to this topic.

Quote:

3 Spiritual Gifts pg 90

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter05149.htm

Chapter IX. - Disguised Infidelity

I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created." God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}

When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {3SG 90.2}

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth. {3SG 91.2}

I have been shown that without Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many respects from the present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent to conjecture beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found in the sacred Scriptures. But when men leave the word of God in regard to the history of creation, and seek to account for God's creative works upon natural principles, they are upon a boundless ocean of uncertainty. Just how God accomplished the work of creation in six literal days he has never revealed to mortals. His creative works are just as incomprehensible as his existence. {3SG 93.1}

To ALSO see that in 1 Spirit of Prophecy p 89

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter04907.htm

[skyblue888]

How can anyone suggest that this issue has nothing to do with our salvation when redemption is creation all over again? "Created in Christ Jesus unto good works..."

sky

[Twilight]

How can anyone suggest that this issue has nothing to do with our salvation when redemption is creation all over again? "Created in Christ Jesus unto good works..."

sky

Agreed.

[Guest]

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2Cr 5:17

[BobRyan]

For our evolution leaning friends was that 3SG 90-93 quote from the previous page of this thread "true" or "false"?

Did that 3SG 90-93 quote affirm or contradict the Opening Post??

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Hard for EGW to confirm the opening post, since the Fundamentals hadn't been formulated when she wrote (let alone the post).

[olger]

I often here this response to substantive issues and that’s OK if one doesn’t mind standing with the scornful, because that is exactly what evolutionist do concerning the 7 day Creation. Then again how can one who is truly saved allow Christ to be called a liar because even he declared that His Father made the first male and female, which rebukes evolution?

“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female…” Matt. 19:4

Michael

You nailed it Michael.

`ol Ger

[BobRyan]

For our evolution leaning friends was that 3SG 90-93 quote from the previous page of this thread "true" or "false"?

Did that 3SG 90-93 quote affirm or contradict the Opening Post??

[skyblue888]

Bob, are you familiar with the following:

In the Century Magazine of many years ago, there was a very interesting description of the production of voice-figures. The article was entitled “Visible Sounds.” A simple device was used to test the intensities of vocal sounds. It was an elastic membrane stretched over the mouth of a receiver into which receiver the voice was introduced by means of a wide-mouthed tube. On this membrane a fine powder was sprinkled. It was found that upon singing into the tube the powder was gently agitated by the vibrations of the membrane, which vibrations corresponded to those of the voice, differing according to the pitch and intensity of the sound.

This, of course, is what might be expected. But the wonder was that in every instance the agitation produced the shape of some plant or flower, or even of some of the lower forms of animal life! Something similar to this may be seen when one breathes upon the window pane in frosty weather.

It was found that when the powder was dry, it would not retain the form after the vibration of the voice ceased. So the expedient was adopted of slightly moistering it, when the various shapes could be retained and photographed.

This shows that the breath, as it comes from the lungs has the shape of living things, and to the singer suggested a thought which she thus expressed:

“Closing now my brief sketch of these voice-figures, as I have observed them, using my own voice as the instrument of investigation, question after question has presented itself to me, until I have continually felt myself standing before mystery, in great part hidden, although some glimpses seem revealed. And I must say, besides, that as day by day I have gone on singing into shape these peculiar forms, and, stepping out of doors, have seen their parallels living in the flowers, ferns, and trees around me, and, again, as I have watched the little heaps in the formation of the floral figures gather themselves up, and then shoot out their petals, just as a flower springs from the swollen bud, the hope has come to me that these humble experiments may afford some suggestions in regard to nature's production of her own beautiful forms, and may thereby aid, in some degree, the revelation of yet another link in the great chain of the organized universe that, we are told in Holy Writ, took its shape at the voice of God!” Century Magazine of May 1891.

This was taken from The Gospel in Creation by E.J. Waggoner.

[skyblue888]

“Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” Romans 10:17.

As faith comes by hearing the word of God, it is plain that the word of God, in order to inculcate faith, must teach that the word has in itself power to accomplish what is said in that word!

And such is precisely the truth of the matter; the word of God does teach just this, and nothing else, so that it is truly “the word of faith which we preach.” Romans 10:8. The psalmist says, “All Thy commandments are full of faith.” Psalm 119:86.

The greater part of the very first chapter of the Bible is instruction in faith. That chapter has in itself no fewer than six distinct statements that definitely inculcate faith. The inculcation of faith is the teaching that the word of God itself accomplishes the thing which is spoken in that word.

The very first verse of the Bible says: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” How did He create them? “By the word of the Lord were the heavens made: and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.” Psalm 33:6.

“For He spake, and it was; He commanded and it stood fast.” Psalm 33:9. Before He spoke, it was not: after He spoke, “it was.” Only by the speaking, it was. What caused it to be? The word only!

Darkness was upon all the face of the deep. God wished light to be there; but how could there be light where all was darkness? He spoke: “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” Where did the light come from? The word which was spoken, itself produced the light!

There was no firmament, atmosphere. God wished that there should be a firmament. How could it be produced? “God said, Let there be a firmament... and it was so.” What caused the firmament to be? The word only. He spoke, and it was so. The word spoken, itself caused the thing to exist.

God next desired that there should be a dry land. How could this be? Again He spoke: “God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together in one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so.” Then there was no vegetation. Whence should this come? Again He spoke: “And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit-tree yielding fruit after his kind: and it was so.”

Again He spoke: “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven... and it was so.” Again He spoke: “And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures,... and it was so.”

Thus it was that “by the word of the Lord” all things were created. He spoke THE WORD ONLY, and it was so!

Thus it was in creation. And thus it is in redemption: He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He stilled the storm, He cleansed the lepers, He raised the dead, He forgave sins, all by His word. In all this, also, “He spoke, and it was.”

And He is the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever. Always He is the Creator. And always He does all things by His word only because it is the very characteristic of His word, that it is possessed of the divine power by which it accomplishes the thing which is spoken. See Isaiah 55:11.

“The teaching of faith is the teaching that such is the nature of the word of God; the teaching of people to exercise faith is the teaching them to expect the word of God to do what it says, and to depend upon it to do the thing which is by it spoken. And the cultivating of faith is by practice to cause to grow confidence in the power of the word of God itself to do what in that word is said, and dependence upon that word only to accomplish what the word says! ” A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith.

This knowledge is more essential than any other knowledge that can be acquired!

Is this not what it means to receive the Scriptures as the Word of God to us, not written merely, but spoken?

sky

[Guest]

Wow, that's deep.

[Guest]

Faith is the expecting the word of God itself to do what the word says and depending upon that word itself to do what the word says.

When this is clearly discerned, it is perfectly easy to see how it is that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Since the word of God is imbued with creative power and so is able to produce in very substance the thing which that word speaks and since faith is the expectation that the word itself will do what the word says and depending on the word only to do what that word says, it is plain enough that faith is the substance of things hoped for.

Since the word of God is in itself creative and so is able to produce and cause to appear what otherwise would never exist nor be seen, and since faith is the expecting the word of God only to do just that thing and depending upon "the word only" to do it, it is plain enough that faith is "the evidence of things not seen."

Thus it is that "through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

He who exercises faith knows that the word of God is creative and that so it is able to produce the thing spoken. Therefore, he can understand, not guess, that the worlds were produced, were caused to exist, by the word of God.

He who exercises faith can understand that though before the word of God was spoken, neither the things which are now seen nor the substances of which those things are composed, anywhere appeared, simply because they did not exist; yet when that word was spoken, the worlds were, simply because that word itself caused them to exist.

This is the difference between the word of God and the word of man. man may speak, but there is no power in his words to perform the thing spoken. If the thing is to be accomplished which he has spoken, the man must do something in addition to speaking the word--he must make good his word.

Not so the word of God.

When God speaks, the thing is. And it is, simply because He has spoken. It accomplishes that which He was pleased to speak. It is not necessary that the Lord, as man, must do something in addition to the word spoken. He needs not to make His word good; it is good. He speaks "the word only," and the things is accomplished.

And so it is written: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God, which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe"--in you that exercise faith. 1 Thess. 2:13.

A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith.

[BobRyan]

Amen and amen!

[BobRyan]

“

Thus it was in creation. And thus it is in redemption: He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He stilled the storm, He cleansed the lepers, He raised the dead, He forgave sins, all by His word. In all this, also, “He spoke, and it was.”

And He is the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever. Always He is the Creator. And always He does all things by His word only because it is the very characteristic of His word, that it is possessed of the divine power by which it accomplishes the thing which is spoken. See Isaiah 55:11.

“The teaching of faith is the teaching that such is the nature of the word of God; the teaching of people to exercise faith is the teaching them to expect the word of God to do what it says, and to depend upon it to do the thing which is by it spoken. And the cultivating of faith is by practice to cause to grow confidence in the power of the word of God itself to do what in that word is said, and dependence upon that word only to accomplish what the word says! ” A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith.

This knowledge is more essential than any other knowledge that can be acquired!

Is this not what it means to receive the Scriptures as the Word of God to us, not written merely, but spoken?

sky

Isaiah 45 and 46 are what I call the "Sabbath chapters" because they teach us the lesson we are to be focused on "every Sabbath" -- the connection between the things in creation that God spoke into existence and the things God speaks to us in salvation as our Savior.

It is God that makes the connection between those two aspects - His trustworthy account of His creative work in making all that we see around us -- and His invisible act of providing atonement and forgiveness of sins.

He asks us to see the visible work of God (creating all that we see) and then apply that to trust him in the invisible work (new birth, forgiveness of sins, atonement).

If we can not even trust the visible work of God -- how weak then is our ability to benefit from that teaching in Isaiah!!

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

“

Thus it was in creation. And thus it is in redemption: He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He stilled the storm, He cleansed the lepers, He raised the dead, He forgave sins, all by His word. In all this, also, “He spoke, and it was.”

And He is the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever. Always He is the Creator. And always He does all things by His word only because it is the very characteristic of His word, that it is possessed of the divine power by which it accomplishes the thing which is spoken. See Isaiah 55:11.

“The teaching of faith is the teaching that such is the nature of the word of God; the teaching of people to exercise faith is the teaching them to expect the word of God to do what it says, and to depend upon it to do the thing which is by it spoken. And the cultivating of faith is by practice to cause to grow confidence in the power of the word of God itself to do what in that word is said, and dependence upon that word only to accomplish what the word says! ” A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith.

This knowledge is more essential than any other knowledge that can be acquired!

Is this not what it means to receive the Scriptures as the Word of God to us, not written merely, but spoken?

sky

Isaiah 45 and 46 are what I call the "Sabbath chapters" because they teach us the lesson we are to be focused on "every Sabbath" -- the connection between the things in creation that God spoke into existence and the things God speaks to us in salvation as our Savior.

It is God that makes the connection between those two aspects - His trustworthy account of His creative work in making all that we see around us -- and His invisible act of providing atonement and forgiveness of sins.

He asks us to see the visible work of God (creating all that we see) and then apply that to trust him in the invisible work (new birth, forgiveness of sins, atonement).

If we can not even trust the visible work of God -- how weak then is our ability to benefit from that teaching in Isaiah!!

in Christ,

Bob

This is exactly the point.

If we do not have faith that God created as He said He created, then how can we have faith He will re-create us...

Mark

[olger]

"One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view, was ... it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. ...so for the last few weeks I've tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, 'I do know one thing -- it ought not to be taught in high school'." Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November, 1981

olger

[Twilight]

"One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view, was ... it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it. That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so long. ...so for the last few weeks I've tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of people. Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, 'I do know one thing -- it ought not to be taught in high school'." Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November, 1981

olger

An honest man...

It is these types of honest questions I wish all defenders of evolutionary theory would engage in.

But sadly for many, their main focus seems to be defense of the theory, rather than openness to it being challenged.

Mark

[olger]

We exalt the Father greatly by yielding to His revealed Word. He in turn will honor those who honor Him (1 Samuel 2:30).

amen,

G

[Lutz13]

An interesting verse that we should all keep in mind. "But He answered and said, 'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind, and if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch'"(Matthew 15:13-14) Every idea that doesn't come from God will be uprooted from the hearts of Gods people. It shall be exposed. There will be people that will refuse and we are to just leave them alone.

[Bravus]

Yep. Whose job is it? Not humans'...