How evolutionism destroys SDA theology

[Twilight]

An interesting verse that we should all keep in mind. "But He answered and said, 'Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind, and if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch'"(Matthew 15:13-14) Every idea that doesn't come from God will be uprooted from the hearts of Gods people. It shall be exposed. There will be people that will refuse and we are to just leave them alone.

Indeed :-)

But there are times to challenge false teaching by presenting the truth in love (may the Lord give me the heart I need).

It is one thing for someone to "hold" a private opinion that is error, but when they try to "teach" that, then that is the enemy engaging in active warfare.

So when the enemy lifts up his standard.

The children of God have to lift up Jesus' standard.

I am fully convicted that evolutionary thought is a tool of the enemy.

Why?

Inspiration states it so.

It is one thing for a man to keep a tool in his toolbox, it is another thing when he puts it to work.

Mark :-)

[Lutz13]

Yep. Whose job is it? Not humans'...

Well, I 'personally' believe that God inspires some men to expose error. The reformation comes to mind. Though it is true that there are men who take it on their own to try and expose the enemy. Which is usually done out of spite instead of love. Which I will admit, it is one of my own struggles.

[Lutz13]

But there are times to challenge false teaching by presenting the truth in love (may the Lord give me the heart I need).

[Guest]

I agree, and that is a job that God gives to men who can do so in love. I wish to have that kind of heart as well. With all this new truth I have been absorbing. It may not be all that long!

I am happy for you Lutz, that you have found this new spiritual food. I too am reading and studying about the 1888 message, "Righteousness by Faith". I believe it is meat in due season, and I am just as excited as you are. Praise God for looking out for our spiritual needs.

[BobRyan]

We exalt the Father greatly by yielding to His revealed Word. He in turn will honor those who honor Him (1 Samuel 2:30).

amen,

G

Amen my friend -- good point.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Yep. Whose job is it? Not humans'...

Well, I 'personally' believe that God inspires some men to expose error. The reformation comes to mind. Though it is true that there are men who take it on their own to try and expose the enemy. Which is usually done out of spite instead of love. Which I will admit, it is one of my own struggles.

"The best way to deal with error is to present truth." D.A.498.

[Bravus]

Quote:

"The best way to deal with error is to present truth." D.A.498.

Great point. So we can expect a *lot* more threads extolling creationism, and a lot less attacking evolution?

[BobRyan]

I am wondering if Ellen White is upholding the Bible view of Creation while also condemning evolutionism in 3SG 90-91 --- what say those who read this thread?

1. What do you find in her statements in 3SG 90-91?

2. Does it help define just how evolution undermines SDA doctrine?

(Not saying we have any evolutionists at all here -- just asking the question about the topic and how Ellen White addressed it)

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

I am wondering if Ellen White is upholding the Bible view of Creation while also condemning evolutionism in 3SG 90-91 --- what say those who read this thread?

1. What do you find in her statements in 3SG 90-91?

2. Does it help define just how evolution undermines SDA doctrine?

(Not saying we have any evolutionists at all here -- just asking the question about the topic and how Ellen White addressed it)

in Christ,

Bob

Could you post it Bob?

Mark

[BobRyan]

Good idea -- I think it would be helpful to post and then to look at it - paragraph by paragraph.

So here is the post

============================

3 Spiritual Gifts 90

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter05149.htm

Chapter IX. - Disguised Infidelity

I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created." God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}

When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {3SG 90.2}

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth. {3SG 91.2}

=====================

I believe a careful review of the facts listed here will be very helpful.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

One more paragraph from that same chapter may be helpful as well ...

Quote:

I have been shown that without Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many respects from the present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these things have been in the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent to conjecture beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found in the sacred Scriptures. But when men leave the word of God in regard to the history of creation, and seek to account for God's creative works upon natural principles, they are upon a boundless ocean of uncertainty. Just how God accomplished the work of creation in six literal days he has never revealed to mortals. His creative works are just as incomprehensible as his existence. {3SG 93.1}

[Twilight]

Good idea -- I think it would be helpful to post and then to look at it - paragraph by paragraph.

So here is the post

============================

3 Spiritual Gifts 90

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter05149.htm

Chapter IX. - Disguised Infidelity

I was then carried back to the creation and was shown that the first week, in which God performed the work of creation in six days and rested on the seventh day, was just like every other week. The great God in his days of creation and day of rest, measured off the first cycle as a sample for successive weeks till the close of time. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created." God gives us the productions of his work at the close of each literal day. Each day was accounted of him a generation, because every day he generated or produced some new portion of his work. On the seventh day of the first week God rested from his work, and then blessed the day of his rest, and set it apart for the use of man. The weekly cycle of seven literal days, six for labor, and the seventh for rest, which has been preserved and brought down through Bible history, originated in the great facts of the first seven days. {3SG 90.1}

When God spake his law with an audible voice from Sinai, he introduced the Sabbath by saying, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." He then declares definitely what shall be done on the six days, and what shall not be done on the seventh. He then, in giving the reason for thus observing the week, points them back to his example on the first seven days of time. "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." This reason appears beautiful and forcible when we understand the record of creation to mean literal days. The first six days of each week are given to man in which to labor, because God employed the same period of the first week in the work of creation. The seventh day God has reserved as a day of rest, in commemoration of his rest during the same period of time after he had performed the work of creation in six days. {3SG 90.2}

But the infidel supposition, that the events of the first week required seven vast, indefinite periods for their accomplishment, strikes directly at the foundation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. It makes indefinite and obscure that which God has made very plain. It is the worst kind of infidelity; for with many who profess to believe the record of creation, it is infidelity in disguise. It charges God with commanding men to observe the week of seven literal days in commemoration of seven indefinite periods, which is unlike his dealings with mortals, and is an impeachment of his wisdom. {3SG 91.1}

Infidel geologists claim that the world is very much older than the Bible record makes it. They reject the Bible record, because of those things which are to them evidences from the earth itself, that the world has existed tens of thousands of years. And many who profess to believe the Bible record are at a loss to account for wonderful things which are found in the earth, with the view that creation week was only seven literal days, and that the world is now only about six thousand years old. These, to free themselves of difficulties thrown in their way by infidel geologists, adopt the view that the six days of creation were six vast, indefinite periods, and the day of God's rest was another indefinite period; making senseless the fourth commandment of God's holy law. Some eagerly receive this position, for it destroys the force of the fourth commandment, and they feel a freedom from its claims upon them. They have limited ideas of the size of men, animals and trees before the flood, and of the great changes which then took place in the earth. {3SG 91.2}

=====================

I believe a careful review of the facts listed here will be very helpful.

in Christ,

Bob

I would say this was addressing the teachings of theistic evolutionists. Those that hold the view the 7 days are periods, rather than specific days.

Quite clearly.

[jasd]

>>A huge problem when telling stories about something evolving into another species...<<

I think I’m evolving into czar jasd; would that be, like, another species?

>>one cannot help but notice the enthusiasm and importance that Ellen White assigns to this topic.<<

So, there exists for some – Canon and deutero canon...

>>men leave the word of God in regard to the history of creation,<<

complete with its own red letters!

Okaayyy... I suppose it might be comforting – for anyone having difficulty reconciling the word of Gd,

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

I believe a careful review of the facts listed here

Sometimes the metrics between opinion and fact – are difficult to apprehend.

>>I would say this was addressing the teachings of theistic evolutionists.<<

Indeed, and with a conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge...

Don’t get me wrong – faith is good.

>>Those that hold the view the 7 days are periods, rather than specific days.<<

How about six literal days of creation – with periods in between?

>>Quite clearly.<<

One presumes...

[Guest]

Nah, it only took God six days, with no spaces in between. He didn't rest until it was finished, and he saw that it was good.

[The Searcher]

As a scientist, I have a problem with Evolution in any form. Let us look at the record.

If the Sun and Moon were not created until the fourth day, then how do we have water on the face of the earth prior to and during the early stages of creation week. The temperature of space is approximately 2.7 degrees kelvin. Yet the Bible declares that there was darkness over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters. On the second day, the dry land comes forth out of the waters. Liquid water's existence would require a miraculous intervention on the part of God. The Bible declares that the earth was formless and void suggesting chaos not order. Also a declaration of the miraculous about to be performed: Bringing order from chaos. Yet, it is only miraculous because we do not have the power to so manipulate the laws of nature. But with God, all is possible because it is in His being. He is the transcendent God who exists outside of created matter. He made the laws which govern nature, and He created the table of atomic elements. What is miraculous to us is a normal function of our God.

Most of those who believe in some form of Theistic Evolution suggest Genesis 1 & 2 indicate a pre-creation world in which the history seen in the present rocks are due to a evolutionary process recorded as pre-creation life. They suggest God destroyed that world and created a new one from the chaos. Others believe that a pre-world existed from which God created the present inhabited planet over vast periods of time using death and dying and catastrophe as His instruments in order to create and evolve life.

In both cases, there is a problem with death and catastrophe because 1 Corinthians clearly indicates that death did not enter this world until man sinned. Death is the sting of sin. By man came death; by man came life. Through Adam we all die; through Christ, the second Adam, we live. For evolution to exist prior to Adam's fall makes God a liar concerning the cause for death in this present world and the requirement for the cross.

And for those who believe in a pre-creation world covered in water, there is this declaration in the New Testament, "that which is seen was made from that which was unseen." I would suggest that we misunderstand Genesis 1.1, 2. Do not think of these as statements declaring the nature of matter prior to the creation week. Rather, they are the Hebrew way of explaining the non-existence which existed before God created. The deep refers to the darkness which exists below the photic zone of the ocean. Nothing could be seen or discerned below this depth; it was a mystery. Thus Moses compared the darkness of space to the non-photic zone of the deep recesses of the ocean. This the Hebrew mind could grasp. And the Spirit moving across the face of the waters is a way of saying that the Spirit moved across the face of this impenetrable darkness. A darkness which had no form and was void, empty of all matter. It was chaos to the Hebrew mind because nothing existed in this realm.

Evolution, in whatever form it takes, explains nothing and creates massive problems with some of the most fundamental doctrines of sin and death and does a dishonor to justification and sanctification and ultimately denies the necessity for Christ's death. It is heresy for any true Christian to accept any form of evolution in the development of life. The universe and all which exists therein is not the result of the stochastic processes which govern our current existence. Rather, God spoke and it came to be. That which is the result of God's essence came to be because the Word spoke. But man He formed with His own hands from the dust and breathed into His nostrils the breath which began life. Thus, we are created in the image of God purposely formed from dust with His own hands not spoken into life.

If God can create a living, breathing snake from a dead, dry staff of wood in an instant, then why would He need thousands or millions or billions of years to create life using death and destruction as His instruments for change? Those, who know their biochemistry, know that a plant is cellularly different from animal life. And a dead tree cannot contain life. Yet when God had Moses drop his staff upon the ground, He was demostrating something very profound to all those present regarding His being. He, who could create living, breathing life in an instant of time, does not require anything but His word to bring forth life. It was a declaration to Pharoah that he was being confronted by the self-existing God who made both the heavens and the earth. The one who had the life of Pharoah in His hand. It is also a refutation of the claim that God would require large expanses of time and death and dying in order to form this earth and all which exists within it.

I would suggest that a true follower of God accepts the Bible as it reads. God hung the world on nothing; He created the world from nothing, and He will bring an end to sin, and death, and sorrow. He who can bring forth a living snake from a dry piece of wood is able to change us in a moment from mortal to immortal; He will bring forth the dead, from the dust to which they returned upon death, into the form required for the resurrection unto life eternal or the form required for the resurrection of justice at the end of the thousand years.

The Bible is historically accurate and can be trusted to give to us the true nature of existence in this world, the cause for life and the cause for sin. He who did not spare His own son but gave Him up, how will He not with Christ give us all. He hides nothing from us in order that we might understand His love for each and everyone of us. And nothing says more about Him than the creation event and the life, death, and resurrection of His son. He has given to us the full truth of our existence. Evolution, in all forms, was designed to hide from us the true nature of our existence and the nature and essence of our God. It was designed to keep us in sin, and to die in despair.

Sincerely,

The Seafarer

[Twilight]

As a scientist, I have a problem with Evolution in any form. Let us look at the record.

If the Sun and Moon were not created until the fourth day, then how do we have water on the face of the earth prior to and during the early stages of creation week. The temperature of space is approximately 2.7 degrees kelvin. Yet the Bible declares that there was darkness over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters. On the second day, the dry land comes forth out of the waters. Liquid water's existence would require a miraculous intervention on the part of God. The Bible declares that the earth was formless and void suggesting chaos not order. Also a declaration of the miraculous about to be performed: Bringing order from chaos. Yet, it is only miraculous because we do not have the power to so manipulate the laws of nature. But with God, all is possible because it is in His being. He is the transcendent God who exists outside of created matter. He made the laws which govern nature, and He created the table of atomic elements. What is miraculous to us is a normal function of our God.

Most of those who believe in some form of Theistic Evolution suggest Genesis 1 & 2 indicate a pre-creation world in which the history seen in the present rocks are due to a evolutionary process recorded as pre-creation life. They suggest God destroyed that world and created a new one from the chaos. Others believe that a pre-world existed from which God created the present inhabited planet over vast periods of time using death and dying and catastrophe as His instruments in order to create and evolve life.

In both cases, there is a problem with death and catastrophe because 1 Corinthians clearly indicates that death did not enter this world until man sinned. Death is the sting of sin. By man came death; by man came life. Through Adam we all die; through Christ, the second Adam, we live. For evolution to exist prior to Adam's fall makes God a liar concerning the cause for death in this present world and the requirement for the cross.

And for those who believe in a pre-creation world covered in water, there is this declaration in the New Testament, "that which is seen was made from that which was unseen." I would suggest that we misunderstand Genesis 1.1, 2. Do not think of these as statements declaring the nature of matter prior to the creation week. Rather, they are the Hebrew way of explaining the non-existence which existed before God created. The deep refers to the darkness which exists below the photic zone of the ocean. Nothing could be seen or discerned below this depth; it was a mystery. Thus Moses compared the darkness of space to the non-photic zone of the deep recesses of the ocean. This the Hebrew mind could grasp. And the Spirit moving across the face of the waters is a way of saying that the Spirit moved across the face of this impenetrable darkness. A darkness which had no form and was void, empty of all matter. It was chaos to the Hebrew mind because nothing existed in this realm.

Evolution, in whatever form it takes, explains nothing and creates massive problems with some of the most fundamental doctrines of sin and death and does a dishonor to justification and sanctification and ultimately denies the necessity for Christ's death. It is heresy for any true Christian to accept any form of evolution in the development of life. The universe and all which exists therein is not the result of the stochastic processes which govern our current existence. Rather, God spoke and it came to be. That which is the result of God's essence came to be because the Word spoke. But man He formed with His own hands from the dust and breathed into His nostrils the breath which began life. Thus, we are created in the image of God purposely formed from dust with His own hands not spoken into life.

If God can create a living, breathing snake from a dead, dry staff of wood in an instant, then why would He need thousands or millions or billions of years to create life using death and destruction as His instruments for change? Those, who know their biochemistry, know that a plant is cellularly different from animal life. And a dead tree cannot contain life. Yet when God had Moses drop his staff upon the ground, He was demostrating something very profound to all those present regarding His being. He, who could create living, breathing life in an instant of time, does not require anything but His word to bring forth life. It was a declaration to Pharoah that he was being confronted by the self-existing God who made both the heavens and the earth. The one who had the life of Pharoah in His hand. It is also a refutation of the claim that God would require large expanses of time and death and dying in order to form this earth and all which exists within it.

I would suggest that a true follower of God accepts the Bible as it reads. God hung the world on nothing; He created the world from nothing, and He will bring an end to sin, and death, and sorrow. He who can bring forth a living snake from a dry piece of wood is able to change us in a moment from mortal to immortal; He will bring forth the dead, from the dust to which they returned upon death, into the form required for the resurrection unto life eternal or the form required for the resurrection of justice at the end of the thousand years.

The Bible is historically accurate and can be trusted to give to us the true nature of existence in this world, the cause for life and the cause for sin. He who did not spare His own son but gave Him up, how will He not with Christ give us all. He hides nothing from us in order that we might understand His love for each and everyone of us. And nothing says more about Him than the creation event and the life, death, and resurrection of His son. He has given to us the full truth of our existence. Evolution, in all forms, was designed to hide from us the true nature of our existence and the nature and essence of our God. It was designed to keep us in sin, and to die in despair.

Sincerely,

The Seafarer

Some good points. :-)

Mark

[BobRyan]

As a scientist, I have a problem with Evolution in any form. Let us look at the record.

If the Sun and Moon were not created until the fourth day, then how do we have water on the face of the earth prior to and during the early stages of creation week. The temperature of space is approximately 2.7 degrees kelvin. Yet the Bible declares that there was darkness over the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters. On the second day, the dry land comes forth out of the waters. Liquid water's existence would require a miraculous intervention on the part of God. The Bible declares that the earth was formless and void suggesting chaos not order. Also a declaration of the miraculous about to be performed: Bringing order from chaos. Yet, it is only miraculous because we do not have the power to so manipulate the laws of nature. But with God, all is possible because it is in His being. He is the transcendent God who exists outside of created matter. He made the laws which govern nature, and He created the table of atomic elements. What is miraculous to us is a normal function of our God.

[The Searcher]

I would like to speak to another point. If there is no sun until the fourth day, and space's temperature is about 2.7 degrees kelvin, then how do you have life?

For those who have never studied Thermodynamics, I will give a quicky short-course. Thermodynamics is the study of the usage of energy and its by product, heat, through the various natural processes which allow work to be performed. When a plant turns its flower to the sun, energy is expended. When a car moves down the highway energy is used to cause the motion and heat is given off as a byproduct. But what is thermodynamics? It is simply the motion of components within matter from the smallest atom to the scale of the universe.

All matter has continual atomic motion. This motion is measured as an average; an average which we call temperature. Temperature is the average of all the motions within the matter being measured. The temperature is usually given in Celsius or Fahrenheit, but, for the purpose of science, it is measured in degrees Kelvin. As most know, Celsius is based upon a scale of 0 to 100 where zero is the freezing point and one hundred is the boiling point of pure water at atmospheric pressure. But in Kelvin, O degrees represents the point where all atomic motion ceases which is -273.16 degrees Celsius. The temperature of space is 2.7 degrees Kelvin or approximately -271 degrees Celsius. There is little molecular activity at these temperatures.

Molecular activity or energy is required for chemical interactions to occur. If there is little or no molecular motion, interactions do not occur. Pressure, volume, density, and temperature determine the amount of interaction which occurs. High pressure, low volume, high temperatures and high densities mean good interactions can occur. For life to exist, as we know it, there are optimum pressures and volumes and densities and temperatures. And this the current environment supplies.

This is important because life requires atomic motion in order for the chemical reactions to occur for life to continue. If the temperature drops below certain levels, the molecules which sustain life cease to properly interact because the molecular energy required, therefore the molecular kinetic motion, is too low for proper molecular interaction. Or if the temperature becomes too high, then the molecular kinetic energy is too high for proper interaction. There is a range between which all life sustaining molecular motion, molecular kinetic energy, must remain in order for life to continue. Without the Sun, there is only the temperature of space, and this is too low for atoms and molecules to properly interact for any form of life, not only ours but any other.

The Theistic evolutionist, who believes in life prior to the Creation event of Genesis 1 & 2, must explain how matter could come together to form life without some miraculous intervention by God. Without the Sun, God would have to supply the energy for life to exist, otherwise, there would be none. The pre-creationist has not stepped away from the supernatural, rather, he has multiplied the miraculous many-fold more than that required by the simple acts of Creation week. Billions of years of God supplying energy at the proper level for dinosaurs to exist and live. Without light for the plants which are the foundation of the food supply, there must be energy input. And these plants must operate without photo-genesis. For the day-equals-unconstrained-time theists, he must explain how fluid water can exist at temperatures where helium is a liquid and approaching a solid state and this for long periods of time. Neither can accept the sequence of events in Genesis 1 & 2 because thermodynamically, it is impossible to have any liquids except as God inputs energy to maintain a fluid state or to maintain life itself.

Thermodynamics indicate that life has a temperature range where atomic or molecular activity can operate, above or below this range requires the miraculous. There must be a proto-sun source of energy. Theistic evolutionists must derive a source of energy if all which is described in the Biblical account can be accepted. Without it there can be no life. They must have a greater faith and more miracles than that required to accept the events as given in the Bible. They must explain how the earth obtained the energy required to create or sustain life. But, for those who believe in the literal account of Genesis 1 & 2, it becomes a simple matter. God spoke and it came to be, in the right order and at the right time. Each event was designed to achieve perfection.

If we begin with one of the postulates of astronomy and astrophysics: Space is black, then we could possibly derive a theory of the creation week. Where there is light, there is heat and energy according to the theory of black-box radiation.

As I stated earlier, Moses described the dark impenetrable recesses of space as the deep where no matter existed. It was cold and hostile to life. It was also black and devoid of coherent matter. Then God said, "let there be light." Light represented the coalescing of matter to form the sphere which came to be earth. As the matter came together, heat and energy and light were given off as the matter gravitationally partitioned itself into the layers which would form the ball of the earth. Iron and nickel annealed and became the inner and outer cores of the earth; the siliceous materials became the semi-ductile mantle, and the outer regions became the more solidified lithosphere. Over all of this formed the fluid of water and fluids or gases which would become air. Thus the light on the first day was the creation and the gravitational separation of elements into the ball which would become the earth. The heat and energy generated would keep water fluid and the atmosphere gaseous until the sun was created on the fourth day.

Then God spoke, and the land became elevationally differentiated allowing the water to recede from the elevated land surfaces and settling into the lowered basins. The shallow seas and lakes were formed at this time.

Each day took time as God oversaw the details of the process. Everything had to be perfect for life to exist in a perfect environment.

Then the third day, God placed a water canopy over the earth below which the atmosphere was captured and insulated from the coldness of space. This canopy was a safeguard against the lethal elements of space and the products of the hydrogen fusion reactions of the Sun. Only then was the earth ready for the Sun and life.

On the fourth day, He created the sun and the moon. The sun to rule the day and supply the required energy for life, and the moon to rule the night and to maintain earth's rotational stability.

Now the planet was ready for life. He then created the plants and the life which existed in the air and the life of the sea. Again taking time to make sure every detail was perfect.

Then He created the animals and all which would exist upon the land. Finally, He took the dust of the earth mixing it with water, and He formed the organs, and the bones, and the muscles and the ligaments and the skin and the hair into an image of Himself. He took time over each detail. Then, after admiring His work, He breathed into that image the breathe of life, and man came to be an entire being: A living Soul.

Then He took the man and placed him in the garden and introduced him to the animal life. But man knew he was alone, and God wanted him to recognize that he was not complete. Then God took a bone from the man and made for him a perfect complement. And God put all His creative skill into this new being for He wanted man to appreciate the beauty which God would give to man in the creation of the woman. She was perfect in every detail; a true complement to man. Then He showed them the garden.

Then God stepped back and admired the work of His hands, the creation of His mind, the solar system which He had made to protect life upon the planet of earth, and He was satisfied. It was the best; there was not one flaw in all which He had made. Therefore, He ceased from His labors and blessed the cessation of His work and made the Sabbath. And on the Sabbath day, He spent the whole day with Adam and Eve showing them all which He had made, and He was happy.

God saw everything He created, and He was satisfied.

Sincerely,

the seafarer

[SivartM]

But plants were created on the third day... before the sun was made.

[The Searcher]

And you are correct. I was working from memory and I couldn't remember the exact sequence. Thank you for correcting me.

They were created to handle darkness, but not deep cold. And their DNA still needed the protection of the water canopy. If the earth's temperature had gone too low, the plants would have died. The canopy helped to mediate the temperature for the plants. The earth's mantle was also generating heat through radioactivity. And the water circulation was designed in such a fashion that the heat was exchanged through the lithosphere into the water and carried to the surface through the water circulatory transport. Water has great heat capacity and excellent heat transmission. Also plants can endure a deeper cold than other life forms. So the plants were able to handle a short term wait for the sun's energy.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[BobRyan]

While it is true that plants only had to live for 18 hours or so before having the light of the sun - it is not apparent that they had no light.

1. Because on day 1 God creates light for the earth in such a way that there is "evening and morning". Thus there is a light side and a dark side and a rotating planet "resulting" from day 1 creation activity.

2. That same light/dark sequence is available for both day 2 and day 3.

3. The temperature is also appropriate because even on day one - we have liquid water.

4. The green house gases are one of the elements that ensure a "warm planet" - and so the atmosphere must have been "fully charged" to the right level of balance on day 2.

5. The fact that God creates the sun on day 4 instead of Day 2 - with Plants on day 3 -- is a clear "in your face" element in the story when it comes to evolutionism such that naturalism cannot be inserted into the "account".

in Christ,

Bob

[The Searcher]

I agree that all is possible with God, and the creation event is miraculous because, in our own power, we could not do it. Yet, for God, it is a normal function. But there is a problem with other Scripture. For instance, the writer of Hebrews declares, "That which is seen was created from that which is unseen." The implication being that the earth was created from nothing viewable. I interpret that to mean that the earth was created ex-nihilo. For those who accept the statements by EGW I would add she states that in the creation of this world, "God was not indebted to pre-existing matter." This is a statement of the Hebrews 11 declaration.

Secondly, for water to exist, it must do so according to the laws of nature as established by God Himself. In our universe, water changes from a liquid to a solid at about 273.15 degrees Kelvin (about 0 degrees Celsius or 32 degrees Fahrenheit). But if space is approximately 2.7 degrees Kelvin, absent the sun, then there should have been ice and not water before God began creation. If there is water, than God had maintained this miraculously for however long the earth was in existence prior to this event. For those who believe there was water prior to God's creation, must also believe that there was a planet on which the water was retained. This is a problem and those who believe such need to explain their understanding of Hebrews 11. And for those who accept EGW on the status of the earth prior to the creation event have an even greater problem.

For a literal day and night to be, the light on day one would have to be a point source since our days and nights are a function of the rotation of the Earth with the Sun being the current point source. Whereas, I suspect that the evening and morning designators of the creation account represent a finite 24 hour period not necessarily requiring that a point source be present to define that period of time. We see this clearly in Daniel 8.14 where the 2300 days are defined as evenings/mornings (Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings mornings then will a holy be restored (Hebrew Masoretic Text)). These are not literal days, rather, they represent a prophetic year (a day for a year). Defining an interval of 24 hours as evening and morning does not require that a point source of light was present, only that twentyfour hours had passed. Rather, it requires that there be a general agreement among all parties that evening morning represent an interval of time. I would suggest that the evening/morning designators in the creation week represent a time interval of 24 hours which was subsequently defined in reference to the earth's daily rotation velocity and the sun for a reference point source. In essence, God said let there be light and day 1 of twentyfour hours of earth's history were done.

Also, the first day did not start with an evening nor a morning. Light was not in evidence until God declared it to be. If an evening came on that first day then it was the end of the first day and the beginning of the next day. Day one did not require 24 hours. Rather it was the first day. Otherwise, you are left with a dilemna. We have no understanding of the length of the night before light appeared. If you assume that the earth was present in the dark, then millions or billions of years could have passed during this dark period. And the theistic evolutionists would have an argument for a day not necessarily representing 24 hours, rather it could be an indeterminate duration of time. Notice that in the creation account, the sun, moon, and stars were to define days and seasons. So the 24 hour period could not be defined until the sun came into existence.

As I understand the light on day one, it appeared when God called matter into existence. Einstein clearly showed us that mass is a measure of both matter and energy. When God created earth's mass, the light was probably the result of energy being changed into matter; the result of fusion reactions giving off of heat and light, as seen with the sun, as the various atomic components fused to form the spectrum of atomic elements which make up our table of atomic elements. These in turn coelesced into the silicates, carbonates, and metallics which make up the globe of the earth. As these components interacted additional energy was generated and more light was emitted as the components gravitationally separated to form the inner and outer core, the surrounding mantle, which, in turn, is covered by a lithosphere upon which the continents and the ocean basins reside.

The heat from the first day was enough to allow hydrogen dioxide to exist as a fluid, not a solid. And was enough to allow plant life to be established on day 3. The in-your-face comes from the fact that God did in 24 hour intervals what man thinks can only be done in billions of years.

I am only pointing out problems that must be explained if you want a hydrogen dioxide fluid on day one and a light source in order to define day and night or evening and morning for the first three days. I am also suggesting another approach which also explains but is not dependent upon the first three 24 hour intervals be defined by the rotation of earth in reference to a light point source. It also might explain the understanding of the writer of Hebrews when he states, "What is seen was created from what was unseen", or EGW statement, "God was not indebted to pre-existing material." Light, in that context, was the initialization of mass-energy complexes and their fusion into atoms then molecules then global structures with the consequent heat which was derived from such a chain of reactions and diversification.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[The Searcher]

What I am saying through all of this is simply this. God defined the laws which would govern our universe. Then He proceeded to create the universe and all that exists in it according to these laws. In essence, the universe and ultimately all who inhabit this universe were not sudden decisions by an arbitrary God. Rather, they were the result of a well-thought-through plan of God long before there was a universe. We were not a sudden emotional decision by God. No, God had us in vision long before there was even a law of physics. And He created the universe with a vision of inhabitation for all those beings who are now and in the future will be part of this universe. God loved us so much that He planned very carefully all that would control our environment so everything would be at optimum. He even had a plan in place for rebellion long before the universe came to be. Nothing has been left to change and stochastic processes. All is according to God's ultimate plan for the whole universe.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[BobRyan]

1. God may have instituted a point source as the sun in some nebular state that produced light but was not the orb we see today.

2. God may have instituted a reference source (such as the Milkway "side" vs the side of earth facing away from the milkyway) which gave a day and night effect using starlight alone.

3. God may have provided some other artifical point source of light until the sun was created.

Since I did not see it - and He does not say... I don't know.

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As for the water - two possible sources of heat are solar or geothermal. Since we see that the Sun did not exist - it was likely geothermal.

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As for formless and void -- Ellen White makes an interesting argument about the earth being brought "back to that state" (at least partially) during the Millennium.

Now in the Millennium it has atmosphere and dry land - whereas in Gen 1 it does not have either one.

Again - we don't have detail on this point -- so not sure. But "Earth WAS formless and void" does not equate to "Earth did not exist" nor "God had not yet made the earth". So while God is the maker of the Earth -- it may have happened before day 1.

Anyway - just my two cents.

in Christ,

Bob