Sanctification - half full or half empty?

[Twilight]

Quote:

But check it out for yourself. Be fully persuaded in your own mind.

Oh Course. But let each person beware that they need to check out each supposed "quote" that he lists.

Buyer Beware.

I have many much better things to do than to find all of his errors and misrepresentations. I will stick with the Bible and the SOP.

I've personally found 30-40 "quotes" where he added or deleted words of our prophet because he thought they explained it better. Yet he gave the credit for the changes ... to you know who .... Ellen White.

Folks if you thought Ernie was bad. Don't bother checking out this material unless you have a lot of time on your hands to cross check.

I have checked it out and it is fully conversant with the bible and SOP.

Comparing this person to Ernie Knoll is not a nice thing to do, Ernie Knoll deliberately decieved, your comment was not Christian.

All he has done is share his understanding of some simple truths from SOP and the bible that go against your own belief systems.

I would counsel all to check for themselves.

Redwood has a history of opposing this teaching on many boards, I have yet to figure out why...

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Then have Redwood give us some evidence supporting his discovery--right? That is the best way I know of to cure this problem.

[Twilight]

Then have Redwood give us some evidence supporting his discovery--right? That is the best way I know of to cure this problem.

Of course.

But I would point out now, that the "evidence" he has laboured with in the past has been typo's when quoting SOP quotes.

If he has any evidence other than editorial weakness, then I would welcome him placing it on the table.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

This author has replaced the words of Ellen White with his own words and claims they are Ellen White quotes. When I spoke to him about it .... he defended what he did stating that in his mind it did not change the intention of our prophet. I simply asked him to not put his changes in quotes indicating they were Ellen White's words. We've been round and round on this and he refuses to change his quotes.

I am not going to spread this controversy over here. I would just ask that each person check his 'quotes' of other authors. I have found them to be a mix of the author's words and his words in the quotes of the author.

In the case of our prophet ... I think this is serious to think that your words can replace the words of our prophet. So the link to EK is there in my mind. And he does have a group of faithful followers. But from what I can gather this author is not a member of any Seventh day Adventist Church. Perhaps some extermist offshoot.

I just ask you all to be cautious and to pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. The error will then be noticed.

And Twlight ... you asked the reason why I oppose his 'quotes'. The reasons is simple. I value the words of our prophet as she wrote them not as this author modified them.

[Twilight]

This author has replaced the words of Ellen White with his own words and claims they are Ellen White quotes. When I spoke to him about it .... he defended what he did stating that in his mind it did not change the intention of our prophet. I simply asked him to not put his changes in quotes indicating they were Ellen White's words. We've been round and round on this and he refuses to change his quotes.

I am not going to spread this controversy over here. I would just ask that each person check his 'quotes' of other authors. I have found them to be a mix of the author's words and his words in the quotes of the author.

In the case of our prophet ... I think this is serious to think that your words can replace the words of our prophet. So the link to EK is there in my mind. And he does have a group of faithful followers. But from what I can gather this author is not a member of any Seventh day Adventist Church. Perhaps some extermist offshoot.

I just ask you all to be cautious and to pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. The error will then be noticed.

And Twlight ... you asked the reason why I oppose his 'quotes'. The reasons is simple. I value the words of our prophet as she wrote them not as this author modified them.

That is not strictly true Redwood.

A lot of the quotes he types from memory.

When you see that, you bring him for task for bringing a comma or full stop out of place.

You have made the charge now, you should back it up.

Otherwise it is just insinuation and gossip.

Mark.

[skyblue888]

I have been away from this site for a long time now. So Redwood, you are 4him from adventistonline!!! Interesting!!!

And now you are here claiming that you have contacted me personally and that I have told you personally that I felt I could change the words of "our prophet" if in my mind it didn't change her intent!!!

Well, I have some news for the members of this forum. There was never a personal contact with me to begin with. The only contacts we have had took place on the forum for all to see and I have never said anything of the sort. What I have said on the forums was that even though I had unintentionally changed very few words from Mrs. White's writings, the meaning was not changed. After it was shown that her intent was not changed at all, you kept accusing me, before every body, of altering her intent.

I did say though that it is not the words of Mrs. White or even of the Bible that are inspired but the thoughts. Mrs. White says that herself in Selected Messages. Vol.1. But I did not mean by that that we were free to change the wording of any of her statements. I can prove to the members of this forum that never at any time was the meaning of Mrs. White's writings altered in any way, shape, or form, when quoting her from memory, and you know it!

I have explained to the forum that when speaking of Christ's merits, Mrs White uses these expressions interchangeably, "the merits of Jesus," "the merits of Christ," "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour," "the merits of the blood of Christ," " "His divine merits," "the merits of the Lamb of God," "the merits of a sin-pardoning Saviour," etc etc,

The crime for which I was accused and arraigned before the members of the other forums, was that in some instances instead of saying "the merits of Christ," I typed "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour," or vice versa and this happened a few times. And then Redwood would waste no time accusing me of being a deceiver without giving me any chance to prove that I had not even done this intentionally. As you can see for yourself, the meaning of the sentence was not changed one bit. And then Redwood would pretend that his mission in life was to protect Mrs. White's writings which some of us on the forums found to be very amusing because not too long before Redwood began this work of accusing me of being a deceiver, he had called Mrs. White a hypocrite as far as her message on health reform was concerned.

Now, if any one of you is interested to know which quotations i was taken to task for by Redwood on other forums and for which I was accused of changing Mrs. White's intent, I will share them with you and you can decide for yourself. There were only a very few of them, 4 or 5 of them, especially about the merits of Jesus, (not 40 as Redwood has claimed).

Here is a late example. I quoted from memory a statement from F.W.38. It said "They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character."

I posted this quickly from memory, "They need His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character."

Was the meaning changed at all? What do you think?

Another one for which Redwood accused me is this one. "There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

I forgot the words "for himself" in the first sentence. I wrote, "There is not one in one hundred who understands the Bible truth on this subject..."

Now was Mrs. White's intent changed? What do you think?

I am not condoning my typos or mistakes in any way, shape, or form here, but what I am saying is that our brother has been making a world out of an atom. Of course, we should be careful when quoting the words of Mrs. White and I am trying to do my best by the grace of God but I can assure you that I have never changed or altered the intent or meaning of anything I have ever quoted from her writings.

There was another quote I used from memory which says that "through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Again it was alleged by Redwood that I had made up this statement but the administrator of the forum found the quote and it was shown that that is what it said but i had not quoted the full sentence.

There were a few more statements I used for which Redwood accused me publicly of making up, that they did not exist simply because he could not find them anywhere on his cd rom or something but all these statements can be found in Bible Commentary Vol.7a.

I was never given the benefit of the doubt by this brother Redwood (4him) but was immediately accused of intentionally altering Mrs. White's writings when it could not be any further from the truth.

I have challenged him to prove that her intent was changed in any way, shape or form and that challenge still remains.

There are a few more things the members of this forum should know about redwood if they are to understand why he is doing this work of accusing instead of helping.

sky

[John317]

This is all true, skyblue. I witnessed the exchanges you speak of at the time they took place on Adventistonline.

[skyblue888]

As to Redwood's allegations that wwww.hidden-treasures.ca is full of legalism, I find that even more amusing because it could not be any further from the truth. The first three booklets emphasize the truth that obedience is the natural fruit of receiving the righteousness of Christ through exercising faith in His all-sufficient merits.

It is clearly shown that as the sinner lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour, His righteousness is brought into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to the commandments of God.

This is the teaching you will find in these books in many different presentations from the writings of Mrs. White.

Please check it out for yourself.

sky

[skyblue888]

John317 said,

This is all true, skyblue. I witnessed the exchanges you speak of at the time they took place on Adventistonline.

******************

What? is this you Jim from adventistonline? wow!!! another surprise!!!

I had no clue you were John317 from this forum!!!

Well thank you brother and God bless you because the Lord knows my heart and he knows that I have never changed Mrs. White's intent at least not intentionally if i ever did. As far as I am concerned, not one has been able to demonstrate that such a thing was done.

Thanks again Jim, I mean, John317! hehe

sky

[skyblue888]

That is not strictly true Redwood.

A lot of the quotes he types from memory.

When you see that, you bring him for task for bringing a comma or full stop out of place.

You have made the charge now, you should back it up.

Otherwise it is just insinuation and gossip.

Mark.

********************

Thank you brother Mark. I had no idea that this was being discussed here. I was made to feel like the worse criminal while trying to extol the merits of Jesus. Go figure! My only crime was to have typed "the merits of Jesus" instead of typing "the merits of Christ" or "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour," which expressions Mrs. White always uses interchangeably in her writings. Or I was accused of the worse things for typing "they need His grace," instead of "they must have His grace," or "there is not one in one hundred who understands the Bible truth" instead of "there is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth..."

For showing from her writings that through the merits of Christ we could become "more than conquerors" over our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, this brother began to do his work of watching for the least mistake and that led him to make a world out of an atom or to make an atom out of a world.

Instead of commending me for the precious statements I was so enthusiasticly sharing with the members of the forums we were on, he began this work of pointing the finger of accusation because the statements were showing his position to be false.

The best I can think of is that the Lord will use this to bring attention to His message which the enemy hates so much.

May the merits of Jesus Christ be extolled in the eyes of His people that they may lay hold upon them as the remedy provided for sin. See F.W.100,101.

sky

[skyblue888]

We are so accustomed to think of the plan of salvation in terms of so many steps the sinner must take in order to receive the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ that the simplicity of the Gospel is lost sight of.

The Lord opened Mrs. White's understanding and showed her how the matter of salvation is simple, just as simple as ABC! But the Lord told her that we did not understand it! See F.W.64.

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent." F.W.38.

"He who will lay hold of the righteousness of Christ need not wait one moment that he himself may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold upon Christ's righteousness. We do not undersand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64.

See how simple it is. Some of us, I am sure, are familiar with this verse:

"Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you." James 4:8.

In the book Faith and Works, p.106, Mrs. White immediately follows this verse by stating these most hopeful words:

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross."

As the convicted sinner does this, he is drawing nigh to God and God is drawing nigh to him. It is so simple that a little child can understand it.

This is, if you will, the only way to the throne of grace. By bringing the merits of Christ to God, the convicted sinner can approach the throne of grace with great boldness. "The only way he--the sinner--can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ." See F.W.101. *--supplied--

Why? simply because "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

So when the convicted sinner hears God's gracious invitation to "Present your case before Him pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross," it is with the understanding that by doing so he is presenting to God the only remedy provided for sin (see F.w.100,101) and thus he is pleasing God and he is finding His approval. Then it is that he is drawing nigh to God and that God is drawing nigh to him and God clothes him with the robe of Christ's righteousness by which he is justified and sanctified.

The sinner must repeat this step daily with this understanding. This is what it means to "continue in the faith" knowing that "The merits of Jesus blot out transgressions and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of heaven." Evangelism,186.

Not forgetting that Christ's robe of righteousness is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See T.M.92,93,96,97.

sky

*"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

[Richard Holbrook]

Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

I can also recommend the booklet "what must I do to be saved" by a friend of mine on this link (you can view it as a pdf):

http://www.hidden-treasures.ca/eng.html

This little booklet pointed me on a path of study that changed my understanding of my relationship with God.

Thank you for that link. I started reading one of the booklets called "The Voice of His Word" and from what little I read, I think it is going to be a great asset to my study. Thanks again.

[Richard Holbrook]

The Lord opened Mrs. White's understanding and showed her how the matter of salvation is simple, just as simple as ABC! But the Lord told her that we did not understand it! See F.W.64.

Good post sky, I looked up FW 64

The Simplicity of Being Saved

Now, how is it that a man will repent? Is it anything of himself? No; because the natural heart is at enmity with God. Then how can the natural heart stir itself up to repentance when it has no power to do so? What is it that brings man to repentance? It is Jesus Christ. How does He bring man to repentance? There are a thousand ways that He may do this. {FW 64.4}

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? Sounds like nonsense to me. How come people have to make things so difficult by listening to other people's ideas and opinions when all one has to do is read what the eyewitnesses of Jesus wrote for us to read? DAH?

I mean, how are we to actually know for sure if the Holy Spirit inspired someone or if it was the evil spirit? Why not go to the original source?

[Richard Holbrook]

I don't know. Should I believe Dr Rich? or Ellen White?

Dr. Rich? .. Ellen White? hmmm

Yep, that is a tough one.

[Dr. Rich]

No, the question is if you should believe Ellen White or Jesus. I am out of the picture! It's your choice.

[Richard Holbrook]

No That is not the choice. I believe both of them. I would have to believe you in order to throw out Ellen White, and Paul, and others.

[Woody]

I stand by my statement Sky. I can understand why the truth of the matter would be painful for you to fully disclose. I will not use this forum as this type of platform. But what you have said is entirely untrue and I stand by my words as the full truth before God.

But, I will continue to correct all error when others change the words of our prophet. I have only mentioned that you indicated you had the right to change her words as long as they didn't change the author's intent. Which is what you have admitted here to. But I am opposed to this for it puts your judgment in charge of her writings.

I will stick with the original Ellen White. Others may differ.

I would just ask that if you are going to change her words .... that you not use quotation marks. I have asked this consistently but it has not made much difference. Oh Well. To each his own.

[olger]

No That is not the choice. I believe both of them. I would have to believe you in order to throw out Ellen White, and Paul, and others.

Stellar!

the g

[Twilight]

I have been away from this site for a long time now. So Redwood, you are 4him from adventistonline!!! Interesting!!!

And now you are here claiming that you have contacted me personally and that I have told you personally that I felt I could change the words of "our prophet" if in my mind it didn't change her intent!!!

Well, I have some news for the members of this forum. There was never a personal contact with me to begin with. The only contacts we have had took place on the forum for all to see and I have never said anything of the sort. What I have said on the forums was that even though I had unintentionally changed very few words from Mrs. White's writings, the meaning was not changed. After it was shown that her intent was not changed at all, you kept accusing me, before every body, of altering her intent.

I did say though that it is not the words of Mrs. White or even of the Bible that are inspired but the thoughts. Mrs. White says that herself in Selected Messages. Vol.1. But I did not mean by that that we were free to change the wording of any of her statements. I can prove to the members of this forum that never at any time was the meaning of Mrs. White's writings altered in any way, shape, or form, when quoting her from memory, and you know it!

I have explained to the forum that when speaking of Christ's merits, Mrs White uses these expressions interchangeably, "the merits of Jesus," "the merits of Christ," "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour," "the merits of the blood of Christ," " "His divine merits," "the merits of the Lamb of God," "the merits of a sin-pardoning Saviour," etc etc,

The crime for which I was accused and arraigned before the members of the other forums, was that in some instances instead of saying "the merits of Christ," I typed "the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour," or vice versa and this happened a few times. And then Redwood would waste no time accusing me of being a deceiver without giving me any chance to prove that I had not even done this intentionally. As you can see for yourself, the meaning of the sentence was not changed one bit. And then Redwood would pretend that his mission in life was to protect Mrs. White's writings which some of us on the forums found to be very amusing because not too long before Redwood began this work of accusing me of being a deceiver, he had called Mrs. White a hypocrite as far as her message on health reform was concerned.

Now, if any one of you is interested to know which quotations i was taken to task for by Redwood on other forums and for which I was accused of changing Mrs. White's intent, I will share them with you and you can decide for yourself. There were only a very few of them, 4 or 5 of them, especially about the merits of Jesus, (not 40 as Redwood has claimed).

Here is a late example. I quoted from memory a statement from F.W.38. It said "They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character."

I posted this quickly from memory, "They need His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character."

Was the meaning changed at all? What do you think?

Another one for which Redwood accused me is this one. "There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

I forgot the words "for himself" in the first sentence. I wrote, "There is not one in one hundred who understands the Bible truth on this subject..."

Now was Mrs. White's intent changed? What do you think?

I am not condoning my typos or mistakes in any way, shape, or form here, but what I am saying is that our brother has been making a world out of an atom. Of course, we should be careful when quoting the words of Mrs. White and I am trying to do my best by the grace of God but I can assure you that I have never changed or altered the intent or meaning of anything I have ever quoted from her writings.

There was another quote I used from memory which says that "through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Again it was alleged by Redwood that I had made up this statement but the administrator of the forum found the quote and it was shown that that is what it said but i had not quoted the full sentence.

There were a few more statements I used for which Redwood accused me publicly of making up, that they did not exist simply because he could not find them anywhere on his cd rom or something but all these statements can be found in Bible Commentary Vol.7a.

I was never given the benefit of the doubt by this brother Redwood (4him) but was immediately accused of intentionally altering Mrs. White's writings when it could not be any further from the truth.

I have challenged him to prove that her intent was changed in any way, shape or form and that challenge still remains.

There are a few more things the members of this forum should know about redwood if they are to understand why he is doing this work of accusing instead of helping.

sky

I can also state that this is what happened, as I was a member of AO at the time.

Although I am no longer a member as I was banned from there for speaking out against this in a way that upset the owner of the site.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

As to Redwood's allegations that wwww.hidden-treasures.ca is full of legalism, I find that even more amusing because it could not be any further from the truth. The first three booklets emphasize the truth that obedience is the natural fruit of receiving the righteousness of Christ through exercising faith in His all-sufficient merits.

It is clearly shown that as the sinner lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour, His righteousness is brought into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to the commandments of God.

This is the teaching you will find in these books in many different presentations from the writings of Mrs. White.

Please check it out for yourself.

sky

I would also counsel, if anyone has any problems with the way Sky has presented this topic, then go and find the quotes for yourself in the writings of Ellen White.

I am sure that Sky will not mind me saying that this truth stands alone outside of the booklets on his site.

A simple read of the booklet "What must I do to be saved":

http://www.hidden-treasures.ca/eng.html

Then a read of "Faith and Works", (which can be read on the EGW estate website).

Will settle the issue in your own mind.

Please be aware.

This truth is so important that the enemy tried to cloud my mind for several days, and only earnest prayer "removed" my "spiritual blindness" so that I could understand it.

Mark

[Twilight]

We are so accustomed to think of the plan of salvation in terms of so many steps the sinner must take in order to receive the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ that the simplicity of the Gospel is lost sight of.

The Lord opened Mrs. White's understanding and showed her how the matter of salvation is simple, just as simple as ABC! But the Lord told her that we did not understand it! See F.W.64.

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent." F.W.38.

"He who will lay hold of the righteousness of Christ need not wait one moment that he himself may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold upon Christ's righteousness. We do not undersand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64.

See how simple it is. Some of us, I am sure, are familiar with this verse:

"Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you." James 4:8.

In the book Faith and Works, p.106, Mrs. White immediately follows this verse by stating these most hopeful words:

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross."

As the convicted sinner does this, he is drawing nigh to God and God is drawing nigh to him. It is so simple that a little child can understand it.

This is, if you will, the only way to the throne of grace. By bringing the merits of Christ to God, the convicted sinner can approach the throne of grace with great boldness. "The only way he--the sinner--can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ." See F.W.101. *--supplied--

Why? simply because "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

So when the convicted sinner hears God's gracious invitation to "Present your case before Him pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross," it is with the understanding that by doing so he is presenting to God the only remedy provided for sin (see F.w.100,101) and thus he is pleasing God and he is finding His approval. Then it is that he is drawing nigh to God and that God is drawing nigh to him and God clothes him with the robe of Christ's righteousness by which he is justified and sanctified.

The sinner must repeat this step daily with this understanding. This is what it means to "continue in the faith" knowing that "The merits of Jesus blot out transgressions and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of heaven." Evangelism,186.

Not forgetting that Christ's robe of righteousness is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See T.M.92,93,96,97.

sky

*"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

Amen.

One of the most beautiful truths of all!

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

I can also recommend the booklet "what must I do to be saved" by a friend of mine on this link (you can view it as a pdf):

http://www.hidden-treasures.ca/eng.html

This little booklet pointed me on a path of study that changed my understanding of my relationship with God.

Thank you for that link. I started reading one of the booklets called "The Voice of His Word" and from what little I read, I think it is going to be a great asset to my study. Thanks again.

Can I suggest you start with "What must I do to be saved", then "The faith which works by love".

I found these two the most beneficial for my own spiritual understanding.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I stand by my statement Sky. I can understand why the truth of the matter would be painful for you to fully disclose. I will not use this forum as this type of platform. But what you have said is entirely untrue and I stand by my words as the full truth before God.

But, I will continue to correct all error when others change the words of our prophet. I have only mentioned that you indicated you had the right to change her words as long as they didn't change the author's intent. Which is what you have admitted here to. But I am opposed to this for it puts your judgment in charge of her writings.

I will stick with the original Ellen White. Others may differ.

I would just ask that if you are going to change her words .... that you not use quotation marks. I have asked this consistently but it has not made much difference. Oh Well. To each his own.

"In the eyes of two or three witnesses..."

Myself and John317 have already stated that what happened as presented by Sky, was the way we understood it.

If you have additional light as to why you have made this charge and character slur, please present it.

Mark

[olger]

I believe that Sky is a decent person. Anyone who teaches the Biblical truth of sanctification will come into conflict with those who wish to drag theology down to meet their experience. I read this quote at breakfast.

"Those who feel the constraining love of God do not ask for the lowest standard, but aim at perfect conformity to the will of their Redeemer." (StC)

g