Conservative Legalists and Perfectionism

[Woody]

Quote:

"Legalists believe sanctification is the ROOT , not the fruit of their salvation. Through performance we will never know how much is enough to gain God's acceptance.Performance is a response to the Father's love" J. Robert Spangler Ministry Magazine Oct. 1989

Quote:

"Perfectionism shapes the understanding of church standards that some members hold. The standards have become a useful way of defining the sinlessness that they believe they must obtain to have salvation. Often this is an unconscious unexamined belief rooted more in personality traits than in theology." Ministry Magazine Oct. 1989 Monte Sahlin

My belief is that perfection means "sin does not reign but it does remain".

If we realized that people are not totally perfect yet .... we would not be judging and expeling members from our midst.

Quote:

"No one buries someone who is still alive, nor does he expel from the house someone in the last stages of illness. Rather, one waits with patience and endurance for him to get better ... Therefore, I desire to be patient with all who are bought with the costly pearl." Klassen + Klassen in "The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck" p. 354

Quote:

"It grieves the Spirit of God when conservatism shuts man away from his fellow man, especially when it is found among those who profess to be His children. ... justice could be exercised in forgiving the repenting transgressor without violating its integrity. {1SM 260.2}

Quote:

Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion. {GW 297.2}

The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God's people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what. {GW 298.1}

I think we can see that all these are dangerous.

[Stewart (SDA)]

There is certainly a false perfectionism, a "so-called perfectionism", which conservative [and radical] legalists have claimed.

(Adventism's main example of this, in my view, would be the Holy Flesh movement of the late 1800's/early 1900's.)

But there is a "so-called perfectionism" (EW 101), just as there are so-called Christians, so-called love, and so-called good-works.

In my view there are true and false views on perfection, just as there are true and false Christians.

__________________

But sin is not a necessity in the Christian life, is it?

"Men and women frame many excuses for their proneness to sin. Sin is represented as a necessity, an evil that cannot be overcome. But sin is not a necessity. Christ lived in this world from infancy to manhood, and during that time He met and resisted all the temptations by which man is beset. He is a perfect pattern of childhood, of youth, of manhood.(FLB 219)

"He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God." 3MS 360 (1897).

And we don't need to retain one sinful propensity, do we?

"We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good." (FLB 24)

_________________

Your quote about not burying people alive, brings to mind the thought:

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." (6BC 1075)

_________

Regards,

Stewart

[olger]

I rather like this quote by a cousin of mine “To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.” See if you can guess the author...

da G

[skyblue888]

There is certainly a false perfectionism, a "so-called perfectionism", which conservative [and radical] legalists have claimed.

(Adventism's main example of this, in my view, would be the Holy Flesh movement of the late 1800's/early 1900's.)

But there is a "so-called perfectionism" (EW 101), just as there are so-called Christians, so-called love, and so-called good-works.

In my view there are true and false views on perfection, just as there are true and false Christians.

__________________

But sin is not a necessity in the Christian life, is it?

"Men and women frame many excuses for their proneness to sin. Sin is represented as a necessity, an evil that cannot be overcome. But sin is not a necessity. Christ lived in this world from infancy to manhood, and during that time He met and resisted all the temptations by which man is beset. He is a perfect pattern of childhood, of youth, of manhood.(FLB 219)

"He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God." 3MS 360 (1897).

We don't need to retain one sinful propensity, do we?

"We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good." (FLB 24)

_________________

Your quote about not burying people alive, brings to mind the thought:

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." (6BC 1075)

_________

Regards,

Stewart

Excellent!

The 144,000 will have perfected Christlikeness of character through the grace of God by faith in the merits of Christ but when they walk through the everlasting gates they will confess that they are unprofitable servants knowing that their good works play no part in the salvation of the soul or in merit but that God will reward them for these works which they were enabled to do through His grace. If they enter in through the gates they know it is only on account of the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

sky

[skyblue888]

I rather like this quote by a cousin of mine “To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.” See if you can guess the author...

da G

hehe excellent quote,, the Conservatives strive to earn their salvation through their so-called obedience to God's law and the Liberals think they will will be accepted without obedience.

The truth is that the righteous will be accepted only through the merits of Christ but their lives will testify to the power of the Gospel of the merits of Christ to bring a man where, united with Divinity He can obey every precept of the law of God but in the end the righteous will confess themselves unprofitable servants. Then the Lord will receive them unto Himself and declare them "good and faithful servants."

sky

[olger]

Thanks. It was Aiden Wilson Tozer. Commonly referred to as A.W. He married my cousin Ada.

Legalism is not the same as obedience.

Legalism is self-righteousness.

Obedience is the fruit of faith.

g

[skyblue888]

Thanks. It was Aiden Wilson Tozer. Commonly referred to as A.W. He married my cousin Ada.

Legalism is not the same as obedience.

Legalism is self-righteousness.

Obedience is the fruit of faith.

g

Yes brother, absolutely! true obedience is the fruit of faith, the fruit of the Gospel tree and Christ is that tree and we are the branches. This is why it is called "the obedience of Christ." 2 Cor.10:5.

And this obedience which is the fruit of faith has no merit toward our salvation for we and our works of obedience which are the fruit of faith will be accepted only through the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice.

If we entertain any thought that even the obedience which is the fruit of faith plays a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit we will be accused of treason at the bar of God's tribunal:

"If we would gather together everthing that is good and hly and noble and lovely in man and then repsent the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason." F.W.24.

your thougts,

sky

[Stewart (SDA)]

Thanks. It was Aiden Wilson Tozer. Commonly referred to as A.W. He married my cousin Ada.

Legalism is not the same as obedience.

Legalism is self-righteousness.

Obedience is the fruit of faith.

g

Thankyou Olger, I like your closing phrases here.

Legalism is certainly not the same as obedience to God.

________________

God's admonition, His command to His people, has always been [at least in some form or other]:

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow."

(Isa 1:16-17)

Legalism will teach a man to look for ways that he can stand out, and be different from other people.

Genuine obedience will make a person come as close as possible to those about him, without compromising his integrity. Looking for ways and means whereby he can do others genuine good... in as quiet a manner possible.

Stewart.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Dear REDWOOD,

I do hope we havn't made you feel that we've hijacked this thread.

Do you feel that I have become one of the Conservative Legalists?

I would truly welcome your view on this, even if it were a yes or no.

Regards,

Stewart.

[teresaq]

the problem with heart sins, such as pride, legalism, etc., as opposed to the sins like drinking, etc., is that we do not know we have them.

i remember when i flash-backed to several years earlier of a particular attitude i had. i was floored and humbled as i realized that it was purely phariseical-and it had nothing to do with religion!!

i was more "worthy" because i.....

when the bible says we are blind and deceived that is exactly what it means. even if we have given our hearts to the Lord and are living up to everything we know, there is still much about ourselves that we do not see. (others, quite unfortunately, are not at all blind to our defects. )

look at peter for a classic example. pauls experience was also a very dramatic face-to-face with his real self.

i believe that is why we have the psalmist who says, Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

not fun at all, but after a while it gets easier and easier to have our faults, defects and sins pointed out to us by the Lord.

[teresaq]

oops! i should have read the op first.

i believe the Lord has, starting with adam and eve til "that day", called for each one of us to be "perfect".

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

which is defined by

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

to be able to do that we need to keep ourselves in good physical and mental shape, which would include the health message, for the right reasons.

that is my understanding.

[Stewart (SDA)]

the problem with heart sins, such as pride, legalism, etc., as opposed to the sins like drinking, etc., is that we do not know we have them.

i remember when i flash-backed to several years earlier of a particular attitude i had. i was floored and humbled as i realized that it was purely phariseical-and it had nothing to do with religion!!

i was more "worthy" because i.....

when the bible says we are blind and deceived that is exactly what it means. even if we have given our hearts to the Lord and are living up to everything we know, there is still much about ourselves that we do not see. (others, quite unfortunately, are not at all blind to our defects. )

look at peter for a classic example. pauls experience was also a very dramatic face-to-face with his real self.

i believe that is why we have the psalmist who says, Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

not fun at all, but after a while it gets easier and easier to have our faults, defects and sins pointed out to us by the Lord.

___________________

I agree with each of the elements in your comment Teresaq.

Self deception is a great danger in our day.

This danger applies to the Laodicean phase of church history, more than to any of the other phases.

The danger that characterises our time is that we think we are one thing (rich and increased with spiritual goods, etc.), when in reality we can be quite different (just the opposite in fact).

But now the gold, the white garments and the eye-salve are available to us, in ways that are designed to meet the need.

These things will certainly cost us. Jesus says that we must "buy" them.

They will cost us our pride, and our self-sufficiency.

Getting them will not be a cheap experience.

But God offers us the remedies for the very evils that characterise our time.

And I believe that it will be in our time that God will produce a people that will not transgress His law. Of course Satan says that this is not possible.

Of course most of us say it is not possible too. Satan says that all must transgress the law of God (all must sin); and we tend to say that we must all sin (that we must all transgress) as well.

Regards,

Stewart.

[olger]

You guys are sounding good..

g

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

the problem with heart sins, such as pride, legalism, etc., as opposed to the sins like drinking, etc., is that we do not know we have them.

i remember when i flash-backed to several years earlier of a particular attitude i had. i was floored and humbled as i realized that it was purely phariseical-and it had nothing to do with religion!!

i was more "worthy" because i.....

when the bible says we are blind and deceived that is exactly what it means. even if we have given our hearts to the Lord and are living up to everything we know, there is still much about ourselves that we do not see. (others, quite unfortunately, are not at all blind to our defects. )

look at peter for a classic example. pauls experience was also a very dramatic face-to-face with his real self.

i believe that is why we have the psalmist who says, Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

not fun at all, but after a while it gets easier and easier to have our faults, defects and sins pointed out to us by the Lord.

___________________

I agree with each of the elements in your comment Teresaq.

Self deception is a great danger in our day.

This danger applies to the Laodicean phase of church history, more than to any of the other phases.

The danger that characterises our time is that we think we are one thing (rich and increased with spiritual goods, etc.), when in reality we can be quite different (just the opposite in fact).

But now the gold, the white garments and the eye-salve are available to us, in ways that are designed to meet the need.

These things will certainly cost us. Jesus says that we must "buy" them.

They will cost us our pride, and our self-sufficiency.

Getting them will not be a cheap experience.

But God offers us the remedies for the very evils that characterise our time.

And I believe that it will be in our time that God will produce a people that will not transgress His law. Of course Satan says that this is not possible.

Of course most of us say it is not possible too. Satan says that all must transgress the law of God (all must sin); and we tend to say that we must all sin (that we must all transgress) as well.

Regards,

Stewart.

Excellent Stewart. Now can you share with us what is your understanding of the 1888 message as to the "how" to obtain this righteousness of Christ which will cause a people to obtain this experience you are talking about as far as God having a people in these last days who will demonstrate that it is possible to overcome as Jesus overcame, to prove Satan wrong?

thanks

sky

[Woody]

Oh Good Grief. Please don't divert the thread to that. The Truth in that matter has been well documented here.

[skyblue888]

Oh Good Grief. Please don't divert the thread to that. The Truth in that matter has been well documented here.

How am I diverting anything here?

And what was that truth you say has been well documented here?

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Oh Good Grief. Please don't divert the thread to that. The Truth in that matter has been well documented here.

How am I diverting anything here?

And what was that truth you say has been well documented here?

sky

you can start a topic on that if you like, sky. that way the purpose of this topic does not become hijacked into something unrelated.

[Stewart (SDA)]

At this point Sky, I do think that Redwood's request is a reasonable one.

It does seem a common practice on the boards here, to move away from the original point quite quickly.

____________

But if I might apply a Scripture from Romans rather broadly,

"Render therefore to all their dues... honor to whom honor [is due]." (13:7)

In my view the originator of a thread should be due (or accorded) a certain honor [and dare I say it, even a certain authority], as far as the thread is concerned.

I hope this thought does not sound too restrictive to you Sky, but again, in my view Redwood's thought should be respected.

Regards,

Stewart.

[Stewart (SDA)]

It may be of interest to realize that the thought that sin is not a necessity in the Christian life, was actually a prominent element of the 1888 message.

Both Waggoner and Jones held the same view on this point, and it seems that they took an even bolder position than did Mrs. White.

These points may be of interest to some, and, if nothing else, they show that this element was actually being taught in the church around 1888.

Quoting AT Jones from ‘Lessons on Faith’, p.86.

“Can every believer have grace enough to keep him free from sinning? Yes. Indeed, everybody in the world can have enough to keep him from sinning. Enough is given, and it is given for this purpose. If anyone does not have it, it is not because enough has not been given, but because he does not take that which has been given.”

Quoting EJ Waggoner, Glad Tidings, p.42.

“If in anyone who has sought (and not only sought, but found) righteousness through Christ, there is afterward found sin, it is because the person has dammed up the stream, allowing the water to become stagnant...

Let no professed Christian take counsel of his own imperfections and say that it is impossible for a Christian to live a sinless life. It is impossible for a true Christian, one who has full faith, to live any other kind of life. "How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:2.”

Also ‘Waggoner on Romans’ p.97. “People sometimes say that they can believe that God forgives their sins, but they find it difficult to believe that He can keep them from sin. Well, if there is any difference, the latter is the easier of the two; for the forgiveness of sins requires the death of Christ, while the saving from sins requires only His continued life.”

This may suffice to show, at least that the "1888 message" did contain this unpopular element.

Regards,

Stewart

[Guest]

The 1888 message is just as valid today as it was then. Righteousness by faith. It was largely rejected then, and I dare say it is largely rejected now.

[Stewart (SDA)]

The 1888 message is just as valid today as it was then. Righteousness by faith. It was largely rejected then, and I dare say it is largely rejected now.

I think it is possible, Richard, that part of the reason for the current rejections (including the rejection about the EXTENT to which overcoming might be had), is the way we have tented to present the subject.

If the subject becomes scattered and too intellectual, then I think it is no wonder that there are so many rejecters.

There are things involved in this subject that words of reason and intellect will simply not be able to express.

There are things involved here that the eye of reason and intellect will not be able to see.

Regards,

Stewart

[p.s. I hope there might be some relevance in this little snippet from Mrs. White, (the last 10 words especially) --

"Many prayers and testimonies are as destitute of the Spirit of God as a dry sponge is of moisture; for there is no Jesus abiding in the heart. This makes the prayer-meeting cold and lifeless, and it is no wonder that children dread such seasons." (ST Dec 4, 1884)

I think it is possible that there is a lesson for all of us in this. A lesson about perceived rejection.

[LifeHiscost]

Genuine obedience will make a person come as close as possible to those about him, without compromising his integrity. Looking for ways and means whereby he can do others genuine good... in as quiet a manner possible.

Stewart.

One may be as quiet as he wants in serving others. On some occasions Jesus told those who received His services, not to tell anyone. What does the principle of the Word express in other places.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."Matthew 5:16 KJV

"No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light."Luke 11:33 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

the problem with heart sins, such as pride, legalism, etc., as opposed to the sins like drinking, etc., is that we do not know we have them.

i remember when i flash-backed to several years earlier of a particular attitude i had. i was floored and humbled as i realized that it was purely phariseical-and it had nothing to do with religion!!

i was more "worthy" because i.....

when the bible says we are blind and deceived that is exactly what it means. even if we have given our hearts to the Lord and are living up to everything we know, there is still much about ourselves that we do not see. (others, quite unfortunately, are not at all blind to our defects. )

look at peter for a classic example. pauls experience was also a very dramatic face-to-face with his real self.

i believe that is why we have the psalmist who says, Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

not fun at all, but after a while it gets easier and easier to have our faults, defects and sins pointed out to us by the Lord.

___________________

I agree with each of the elements in your comment Teresaq.

Self deception is a great danger in our day.

This danger applies to the Laodicean phase of church history, more than to any of the other phases.

The danger that characterises our time is that we think we are one thing (rich and increased with spiritual goods, etc.), when in reality we can be quite different (just the opposite in fact).

But now the gold, the white garments and the eye-salve are available to us, in ways that are designed to meet the need.

These things will certainly cost us. Jesus says that we must "buy" them.

They will cost us our pride, and our self-sufficiency.

Getting them will not be a cheap experience.

But God offers us the remedies for the very evils that characterise our time.

And I believe that it will be in our time that God will produce a people that will not transgress His law. Of course Satan says that this is not possible.

Of course most of us say it is not possible too. Satan says that all must transgress the law of God (all must sin); and we tend to say that we must all sin (that we must all transgress) as well.

Regards,

Stewart.

Amen Stewart :-)

I am encouraged by the many posters on this board that have found the "middle" road.

I find it interesting that when you are on the "middle" road, the Legalists charge with being Liberal and the Liberals charge you with being Legalists. :-)

Just as in Christs day, the genuine followers of Christ are attacked by the Pharisees and the Saducees...

But when the crucifixion of the real Christians come, both will join in the persecution, just as in the past...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I will also say, that whilst the tendency to sin is present, that does not mean that we have to sin.

That capacity or tendency, I believe will be completely removed at the Second Coming, as our flesh shall be changed.

But just because a tendency is there does not mean, it has to be obeyed.

I think that that is often misconstrued.

I think that we can get victory over all tendencies, but them being there is not the same as being powerless against sin.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Amen!