The problem with Jack Sequeiras Teachings...

[skyblue888]

What "verse" Gail? what verse did u quote that usues the word "sanctified" as far as being changed at the return of Christ? thanks

"We will be sanctified when Jesus comes- The final cleansing and removal of our sinful natures (glorification) will be complete when Jesus returns in power and glory."

Is that a quote or your own words?

Because you do know that as far as our characters are concerned, they must be changed before probation closes. In order to pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living at the end of the loud cry, we must reflect the character of Christ fully. The latter rain will cause us to grow up into Christ until the full corn of His character is in the ear. This must take place before probation closes. Then Jesus will leave the most holy place to return to the earth while the plagues are falling upon the earth and while His people are going through the time of Jacob's trouble which will reveal that their characters have truly been changed.

Agree?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Like this:

We have been justified (made righteous through the merits of Christs blood).

We are being sanctied through the truth. (This is the part JS removes in his teachings).

We are glorified when we receive our new bodies.

The word "sanctified" is used in the verses I quoted.

Which verses Gail?

Mark :-)

[Gail]

1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Cor.6:11; Heb.10:10;John 17:19; Heb.2:11

[Gail]

What "verse" Gail? what verse did u quote that usues the word "sanctified" as far as being changed at the return of Christ? thanks

"We will be sanctified when Jesus comes- The final cleansing and removal of our sinful natures (glorification) will be complete when Jesus returns in power and glory."

Is that a quote or your own words?

Because you do know that as far as our characters are concerned, they must be changed before probation closes. In order to pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living at the end of the loud cry, we must reflect the character of Christ fully. The latter rain will cause us to grow up into Christ until the full corn of His character is in the ear. This must take place before probation closes. Then Jesus will leave the most holy place to return to the earth while the plagues are falling upon the earth and while His people are going through the time of Jacob's trouble which will reveal that their characters have truly been changed.

Agree?

Didn't I already answer you concerning our characters? You've asked me this before...

And no, that was not my thought- in my post I said that I've read it being explained like that. I gleaned that from (I think) George Knight's book "Sin and Salvation". I would have checked the source but we are out of them right now.

[Gail]

I think I have a copy of that book at home. I'll try to dig it up for you and get what he meant, but he wasn't talking about character development.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Gail. Yes I saw these verses but the reason I asked was because you had no verses for this sentence: We will be sanctified when Jesus comes- The final cleansing and removal of our sinful natures (glorification) will be complete when Jesus returns in power and glory.

We will be sanctified when Jesus comes...

back to you

sky

[Gail]

Will get back to you when I locate where I saw that :)

[Twilight]

Will get back to you when I locate where I saw that

Hello Gail and all :-)

I am not aware of any text in the bible that teaches we are sanctified when Jesus comes.

I know the text: "We will be changed", is used often by those proposing this view, but the context of the text does not permit this usage, the context supplies the meaning, that our mortal bodies will be changed and we will be given immortal bodies (for those that are translated, the dead in Christ being resurrected with their immortal bodies).

I know of no other text other than this one, which is used out of context to justify the idea.

Question:

If this "error" is the truth, why is the scripture so silent on the idea, but yet so loud on our need to overcome sin in Christ...?

[Twilight]

1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Cor.6:11; Heb.10:10;John 17:19; Heb.2:11

I have just looked through these texts and further at the word "sanctified".

Its usage seems to determine its meaning.

So to use the term "sanctified" to say that sanctification is finished or is not an active process, is to limit the usage of that word. :-)

My point being, that the word "sanctified" does not always mean past tense.

Could do with some further exploration. :-)

Mark

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Cor.6:11; Heb.10:10;John 17:19; Heb.2:11

I have just looked through these texts and further at the word "sanctified".

Its usage seems to determine its meaning.

So to use the term "sanctified" to say that sanctification is finished or is not an active process, is to limit the usage of that word. :-)

My point being, that the word "sanctified" does not always mean past tense.

Could do with some further exploration. :-)

Exactly.

[Gail]

Here is what George Knight said, in his book, Sin and Salvation:

Quote:

It is helpful to think of sanctification at three levels:

(1) initial sanctification, when a person comes to Christ and is justified and regenerated (born from above);

(2) progressive sanctification, as individuals live for Christ and grow in grace in their daily lives; and

(3) final sanctification or glorification, which takes place at the second coming of Christ, when Christians will be "changed, in a moment...at the last trumpet" (1 Cor.15:52). We will have more to say on the final two phases of sanctification in chapters 5 and 10.- Sin and Sanctification, p.89

I think you are familiar with Mr. Knight, who is a retired professor of church history from Andrews. He backs up what he says with Bible, EGW and other tidbits from Adventist history. When I mention his name to our pastors they inevitably tell me, "He makes me think." And that is how I find him, too.

Now, for his explanation of the final sanctification, which he likens to glorification, you will have to read the corresponding chapters in the book. I think he may connect the two concepts because they are what Christ does IN us, as opposed to justification, which is an external work.

Thoughts?

[Gail]

He also had something to say about Jack Sequiera, under a heading entitled, The Issue of Universal Justification.

[skyblue888]

Gail, justfification is also an internal work, not merely being treated as though we had never sinned. To be justified involves more than the mere forgiveness of sins. It means to be made a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor.5:17), to become righteous in Christ, being born from above, becoming one with Christ. Then the work of sanctification begins which is the work of the Holy Spirit subduing all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. This is the work of a lifetime, of course, for as long as we live in this world, in this sinful flesh, we continually need the Holy Spirit to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. See 2 Cor.10:5.

"Every true converted soul will carry the unmistakable marks that the carnal mind is subdued." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.163.

"Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained." Testimonies, Vol.2, p.479.

This is the work of a lifetime. We must daily apply to the merits of Christ in order for the Holy Spirit to accomplish this work in us. Not only does the Holy Spirit subues our hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil but He impresses the character of Christ upon us. But only the latter rain will complete this work in the soul. See T.M.506; 1 T 353. Then when probation closes the work of sanctification will be complete. Only those who are thus sanctified, who reflect Christ's character fully, can go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death. Then at the second coming our bodies will be changed from mortality to immortatity, from corruption to incorruption. 1 Cor.15:50-55. At that time no internal work will be done for us; it must all have been done prior to the close of probation.

These are basic adventist teachings in harmony with the Bible and the Testimonies.

sky

[Gail]

Well, I might be misunderstanding something.

I do think that Mr. Knight knows what he is talking about... if you read the book it might make it clearer. The whole book tackles those teachings- salvation, justification, sanctification, sinlessness and perfection.

[skyblue888]

May be Gail, but I do think that if there was someone who knew what she was talking about it was Mrs. White. I spent at least 20 years reading book after book from Adventist authors and theologians on these subjects but it wasn't until I read this statement from Mrs. White that I began looking for something more simple. "The matter of salvation (justification, sanctification, sinlessness, perfection) is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Manuscript 1, 1889.

She penned these words on May 11, 1889, shortly after the Minneapolis meeting. My question is, Today, do we understand the matter of salvation any more than they did then, eventhough it is just as simple as ABC?

When she said "but we don't 'understand it," I am sure she didn't only mean the common people but also the ministers and the theologians as well.

Months later, on Sept.3, 1889, she wrote these words:

"We need also much more knowledge; we need to be enlightened in regard to the plan of salvation. There is not one in one hundred who undertands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

What is this Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare? Mrs. White had already answered this question on May 11, 1889, and her answer was simply giving us the 1888 message in a nutshell:

"That living faith is essential to our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, upon Christ our righteousness." Manuscript 1, 1889.

So then, we are to lay hold upon the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. This is the key of knowledge, for as we do this, the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us. Notice these words:

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstasy of feeling, but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

And "The love that Christ diffuses through the whole being is a vitalizing power. Every vital part, the brain, the heart, the nerves, it touches with healing. By it the highest energies of the being are roused to activity. It frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces. With it come serenity and composure. It implants in the soul, joy that nothing earthly can destroy, joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy." Ministry of Healing, p.115.

Now will not the love of God in the soul take care of justification, sanctification, sinlessness, and perfection?

As long as this love of Christ is diffused through the whole being the plan of salvation remains in effect. "The acceptance of the Saviour (His merits) brings a glow of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect assurance. The beauty and fragrance of the character of Chrit revealed in the life testifies that God has indeed sent His Son into the world to be its Saviour." C.O.L.420.

The whole plan of salvation, (justification, sanctification, sinlessness, perfection) hangs upon one simple truth and that is that daily the sinner must come to God just as He is, sinful, helpless, dependent, and then he must lay hold upon the all-sufficient merits of the crucified and risen Saviour by claiming them. Then the love of Christ (righteousness) is brought into his life, diffused through the whole being. It is this love which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God for "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God," and "the life of God in the soul is man's only hope." M.B.18; M.H.115. "Love is the fulfilment of the law." Rom.13:10.

The conclusion of the whole matter is that,

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages,347.

sky

[Gail]

Mr. Knight is well versed in EGW, as well as early and modern Bible scholars. He has written books about her AND 1888, as well as books on early SDA church history. That is not counting his books that are in our educational system.

Are you familiar with any of these?

In this book alone his references from EACH CHAPTER run on for 3 and 4 pages, in small print.

I see no reason to discredit his research. It's well worth the read.

[skyblue888]

Mr. Knight is well versed in EGW, as well as early and modern Bible scholars. He has written books about her AND 1888, as well as books on early SDA church history. That is not counting his books that are in our educational system.

Are you familiar with any of these?

In this book alone his references from EACH CHAPTER run on for 3 and 4 pages, in small print.

I see no reason to discredit his research. It's well worth the read.

Gail, yes I am aware of him. I have been for many years. And you know what, Knight stated that the 1888 message was not rejected and he is one to discredit the messages of Jones and Waggoner too. So I don't put too much stock in his writings. By saying that the leaders did not reject the 1888 message he makes the SOP of none effect!!!

Did u know that? and how can he know what that message is if he is making the testimonies of none effect?

back to you,

sky

[Gail]

Well, it's okay if we do not agree. And I do not think that he makes the testimonies of none effect.

[skyblue888]

Yes Gail, of course, we can agree to disagree but we must not forget that if the Lord sends us testimonies after testimonies to the effect that it was prejudices and opinions that prevailed at Minneapolis (see T.M.467), that "the light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a large degree kept away from the world," (see 1 S.M.234,235) then how can we possibly turn around and declare that that light was not resisted. By making such a declaration, are we not making of none effect the testimonies of the Spirit of God? Knight is not the only one guilty of saying this. Most of the General Conference leaders believe the same.

The only G.C. leader who disagrees with this position, that I know of, is brother Wallenkampf who wrote, What Every Seventh-day Adventist Should Know. Gail, if you haven't read that book, may be you should. It should be available at the ABC. You must have seen that book there on your shelves.

back to you,,

sky

[Woody]

He also had something to say about Jack Sequiera, under a heading entitled, The Issue of Universal Justification.

Yes Gail. George Knight is one of the most respected preachers of and about Ellen White in our church. He for certain has not rejected her in any fashion or form.

And thanks for the reference in the book to Jack. I have the book but had not read into it that far. So, I peeked ahead. And I have to say that I am inclined to believe as Jack does. At least the way I interpret what he said.

My view at least is that Christ's sacrifice saved us. It is a done deal. The consequence is that all are given the gift of eternal life. Each person has the gift. But, they have to reach out and accept it. If you reject it .... as Jack indicated .... you are lost. He is not saying that all WILL be saved. But he is saying that the gift was given or secured at the cross.

I hope I am not misrepresenting what his belief is. I wish Rob was here. But this is my understanding of what he says. But anyways ... it is just simply the Gospel.

[olger]

George Knight was not at the Ellen White symposium in Boston last fall. Merlin Burt, Lael Caesar, and others were.

G !

[Twilight]

Here is what George Knight said, in his book, Sin and Salvation:

Quote:

It is helpful to think of sanctification at three levels:

(1) initial sanctification, when a person comes to Christ and is justified and regenerated (born from above);

(2) progressive sanctification, as individuals live for Christ and grow in grace in their daily lives; and

(3) final sanctification or glorification, which takes place at the second coming of Christ, when Christians will be "changed, in a moment...at the last trumpet" (1 Cor.15:52). We will have more to say on the final two phases of sanctification in chapters 5 and 10.- Sin and Sanctification, p.89

I think you are familiar with Mr. Knight, who is a retired professor of church history from Andrews. He backs up what he says with Bible, EGW and other tidbits from Adventist history. When I mention his name to our pastors they inevitably tell me, "He makes me think." And that is how I find him, too.

Now, for his explanation of the final sanctification, which he likens to glorification, you will have to read the corresponding chapters in the book. I think he may connect the two concepts because they are what Christ does IN us, as opposed to justification, which is an external work.

Thoughts?

I do not have that book Gail, but have listened to some sermons by him, some interesting views, but I find him a little abrasive with the conservatives at times. (God is working on that in my own character by the way...)

[Twilight]

He also had something to say about Jack Sequiera, under a heading entitled, The Issue of Universal Justification.

Can you remember the gist of his position Gail?

[Twilight]

Yes Gail, of course, we can agree to disagree but we must not forget that if the Lord sends us testimonies after testimonies to the effect that it was prejudices and opinions that prevailed at Minneapolis (see T.M.467), that "the light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a large degree kept away from the world," (see 1 S.M.234,235) then how can we possibly turn around and declare that that light was not resisted. By making such a declaration, are we not making of none effect the testimonies of the Spirit of God? Knight is not the only one guilty of saying this. Most of the General Conference leaders believe the same.

The only G.C. leader who disagrees with this position, that I know of, is brother Wallenkampf who wrote, What Every Seventh-day Adventist Should Know. Gail, if you haven't read that book, may be you should. It should be available at the ABC. You must have seen that book there on your shelves.

back to you,,

sky

Thank you for that information Sky. :-)

[Gerr]

Gail, justfification is also an internal work, not merely being treated as though we had never sinned. To be justified involves more than the mere forgiveness of sins.

We may be splitting hairs here, but justification is totally external [i put my faith/trust/total commitment in God and He reckons/accounts me righteous] that leads to sanctification [walking with God through the indwelling Spirit] which is the internal change.