The Beast of Revelation 13

[Guest]

Believe what?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 7:38 He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.

Please tell me you can figure that out by reading the text.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Higher criticism is nothing but doubt. It starts off with the premise of unbelief and scepticism. If you want to doubt the word of God, plenty of opportunity is given.

No wonder you're so confused MM.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, one can't even come close to believing in Jesus Christ without keeping the ten commandments. John's meaning of believing meant that one would obey everything Jesus said--and that would include keeping the ten commandments.

Now tell me Richard, just how many people who call themselves a Christian keep all ten of the commandments? Even Satan believes in Jesus Christ and we all know he will not be saved! Do you keep all of the ten commandments? Do you preach about the Kingdom of Heaven? One first must know about the KOH before he can preach it.

Does God need the Kingdom of Heaven in these last days? If so, why?

[Guest]

You think the KOH is the SDA church. Anybody can be a part of that. As usual you've got that poor horse trying to push the cart instead of pulling it. You believe you keep the commandments to be saved, when in reality you keep them because you are saved. You believe that faith has nothing to do with righteousness, but it has everything to do with it.

You think you will be saved by grace anyway even if you're wrong and teaching others to be wrong. Wrong again! You don't have righteousness by faith. You don't even think you need faith.

You keep that up, and you will find yourself in that large group being told "Depart from me, I never knew you."

Jesus will be looking for faith when he returns. How anybody could miss that is beyond me.

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Luk 18:8,9

The fact that you have to throw out luke and others to believe as you do, is not a good sign.

[John317]

Richard, one can't even come close to believing in Jesus Christ without keeping the ten commandments. John's meaning of believing meant that one would obey everything Jesus said--and that would include keeping the ten commandments.

But no one can obey the commandments on their own strength. People need new hearts, a heart of flesh, just like the Old Testament says. How does that happen? By the Holy Spirit. And the Bible says the Holy Spirit comes to us as a gift from God as we put our faith (belief and trust) in Christ.

You have the cart before the horse. When we truly believe in Jesus Christ, we will obey the Ten Commandments.

Remember that God first freed Israel from Egyptian bondage (a symbol of sin) before He gave them His law at Sinai. He said, "Let my people go in order that they might serve me." He didn't say, "Serve me first in Egypt and then I will let you go free." So God first frees us through belief and trust in Christ before we are enabled to obey His commandments.

When we preach the gospel to people, we don't first preach that they must keep the law in order to be saved. We preach Christ to begin with. He is central. Without Him the law is nothing but legalism. Christ is the law in the flesh. He shows us how to obey the law, a reflection of His character.

[John317]

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly...

Are you talking about the first coming or about the Second Coming? He certainly came the first time in order to save those who were ungodly, but it is true that He will appear the second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Do you believe Romans 4: 5 and 5: 6, that God justifies the ungodly

and that Christ died for the ungodly?

Do you believe these verses teach contrary to Christ?

[Guest]

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly...

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

[John317]

I don't think there can be any doubt that those words of Jesus agree with the words of Paul in the book of Romans.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly...

Are you talking about the first coming or about the Second Coming? He certainly came the first time in order to save those who were ungodly, but it is true that He will appear the second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Do you believe Romans 4: 5 and 5: 6, that God justifies the ungodly

and that Christ died for the ungodly?

Do you believe these verses teach contrary to Christ?

Yes. 100% Absolutely!!!

In your effort to confirm the teachings of Paul you undo the teachings of God through the Sanctuary service and the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

The ONLY sins that were removed from the horns of the alter of Incense on the Day of Atonement were the FORGIVEN sins of the camp of Israel. No sins of the world. No unforgiven sins of any kind. On the Day of Atonement there was to be NO sin in the camp, it was ALL to be on the horns of the Alter. It was then removed by the blood of the Goat of the Lord (not a lamb, the lamb was for the priests) and was then placed on the head of the Goat of Removal and taken outside the camp and released ALIVE in the wilderness.

I have to teach a clarinet lesson now. I'll get to the words of Jesus later, but you know what they are.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly...

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Anyone that repents IS forgiven.

[John317]

In your effort to confirm the teachings of Paul you undo the teachings of God through the Sanctuary service and the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Could you explain a little more what you mean by saying Jesus did not come to save the ungodly?

He came to save me and you, right? I don't know about you but I can tell you honestly and for sure that I was ungodly and would still be ungodly if Jesus hadn't found me and saved me. I feel that He died for me and saved me while I was ungodly. I don't believe He told me that I had to stop being ungodly before He would forgive me. It was His forgiveness and His love that caused me to want to change.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

In your effort to confirm the teachings of Paul you undo the teachings of God through the Sanctuary service and the words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Could you explain a little more what you mean by saying Jesus did not come to save the ungodly?

He came to save me and you, right? I don't know about you but I can tell you honestly and for sure that I was ungodly and would still be ungodly if Jesus hadn't found me and saved me. I feel that He died for me and saved me while I was ungodly. I don't believe He told me that I had to stop being ungodly before He would forgive me. It was His forgiveness and His love that caused me to want to change.

By making that declaration, John, you are saying to God you want to be sanctified in the truth. That is the key to Godliness, i.e. righteousness. God did not say that righteousness was an instant thing. The process of becoming righteous can take a long time. But there is an end result of the process and that end result is 'Righteousness', that is, having no lie in your mouth (Rev.14:5).

But what happens if you don't complete this process? What happens to you if you die before the process of sanctification is completed and you indeed become righteous? THAT is the purpose of GRACE. God has seen your effort to OVERCOME sin as did His Son, Jesus Christ. He knows that had you lived you would have completed the process and become righteous as is His Son. So on that basis He uses His mercy (otherwise called Grace) and steps in and carries you over the 2nd death because of the blood of Jesus Christ as the Passover lamb, and resurrects you to eternal life.

I have NEVER said that grace does not exist, it does; just not in the form that Paul teaches. In his mind you are saved in spite of your sin because no one can become righteous; according to him it is just not possible. You know the drill as well as I do. The fact that you try to become righteous does not matter because you are saved by grace through faith.

The Grace of God is there to take care of those that urgently and with all their hearts seek after the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There is nothing lacks-a-daisical or wishy-washy about overcoming. This is why there must be a measurable demonstration of your willingness to be obedient to the will of the Father as was Jesus Christ. The only measurable element that there is is the Covenant. Through the power of the Holy Spirit it is not just possible but assured that we will be overcomers as was Jesus Christ (Rev.3:21).

Essentially, keeping the Commandments of God is the 'sign of good faith' between the parties to the Covenant. But there MUST be a Covenant, and it must be kept by those that would be in the Kingdom of Heaven. Learning to keep it is the process of Sanctification, and is demonstrated in the Sanctuary service model. And, yes, the Sanctuary service was eliminated as a necessity or reminder of the coming event by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. But the model and type still apply, because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. His Covenant DOES NOT change. If there is a 'new' Covenant it is exactly the same as the 'old' Covenant, to wit: If you love ME, keep my Commandments.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you explain a little more what you mean by saying Jesus did not come to save the ungodly?

He came to save me and you' date=' right? I don't know about you but I can tell you honestly and for sure that I was ungodly and would still be ungodly if Jesus hadn't found me and saved me. I feel that He died for me and saved me while I was ungodly. I don't believe He told me that I had to stop being ungodly before He would forgive me. It was His forgiveness and His love that caused me to want to change. [/quote']

By making that declaration, John, you are saying to God you want to be sanctified in the truth. That is the key to Godliness, i.e. righteousness. God did not say that righteousness was an instant thing. The process of becoming righteous can take a long time. But there is an end result of the process and that end result is 'Righteousness', that is, having no lie in your mouth (Rev.14:5).

But what happens if you don't complete this process? What happens to you if you die before the process of sanctification is completed and you indeed become righteous? THAT is the purpose of GRACE. God has seen your effort to OVERCOME sin as did His Son, Jesus Christ. He knows that had you lived you would have completed the process and become righteous as is His Son. So on that basis He uses His mercy (otherwise called Grace) and steps in and carries you over the 2nd death because of the blood of Jesus Christ as the Passover lamb, and resurrects you to eternal life.

I have NEVER said that grace does not exist, it does; just not in the form that Paul teaches. In his mind you are saved in spite of your sin because no one can become righteous; according to him it is just not possible. You know the drill as well as I do. The fact that you try to become righteous does not matter because you are saved by grace through faith.

The Grace of God is there to take care of those that urgently and with all their hearts seek after the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There is nothing lacks-a-daisical or wishy-washy about overcoming. This is why there must be a measurable demonstration of your willingness to be obedient to the will of the Father as was Jesus Christ. The only measurable element that there is is the Covenant. Through the power of the Holy Spirit it is not just possible but assured that we will be overcomers as was Jesus Christ (Rev.3:21).

Essentially, keeping the Commandments of God is the 'sign of good faith' between the parties to the Covenant. But there MUST be a Covenant, and it must be kept by those that would be in the Kingdom of Heaven. Learning to keep it is the process of Sanctification, and is demonstrated in the Sanctuary service model. And, yes, the Sanctuary service was eliminated as a necessity or reminder of the coming event by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. But the model and type still apply, because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. His Covenant DOES NOT change. If there is a 'new' Covenant it is exactly the same as the 'old' Covenant, to wit: If you love ME, keep my Commandments.

Can I just interject here MM?

God is waiting for us to get to the point where we admit that we cannot keep His Commandments.

Only then will He do the work in us that will remove sin from our lives...

Mark

[Guest]

Can I just interject here MM?

God is waiting for us to get to the point where we admit that we cannot keep His Commandments.

Only then will He do the work in us that will remove sin from our lives...

Mark

Mark, you didn't really need to repost that whole littany of erronious

drivel just to add your words of wisdom did you? You can just add the wisdom and leave most of the error behind.

[Guest]

Amen on what you said by the way.

[Guest]

Sorry MM.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, thanks for giving me the right words for what I was reading the other day in the "Review". Where ever they get those people to write "that whole litany of erroneous drivel" every couple of weeks is a real mystery!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you explain a little more what you mean by saying Jesus did not come to save the ungodly?

He came to save me and you' date=' right? I don't know about you but I can tell you honestly and for sure that I was ungodly and would still be ungodly if Jesus hadn't found me and saved me. I feel that He died for me and saved me while I was ungodly. I don't believe He told me that I had to stop being ungodly before He would forgive me. It was His forgiveness and His love that caused me to want to change. [/quote']

By making that declaration, John, you are saying to God you want to be sanctified in the truth. That is the key to Godliness, i.e. righteousness.

Is that what you meant by saying Jesus did not come to save the ungodly?

It sounds like you're saying Jesus didn't come to save people who would remain ungodly. Am I right?

It's true that Jesus came to save everyone, yet only those will be saved who accept Christ as their Savior and Lord. When we receive Christ's righteousness-- when God justifies us-- the Holy Spirit changes us so that we go on to grow closer to Christ in our characters.

[Guest]

Richard, thanks for giving me the right words for what I was reading the other day in the "Review". Where ever they get those people to write "that whole litany of erroneous drivel" every couple of weeks is a real mystery!

Yeah well, I can't vouch for those folks at the Review. They have been leaning more and more into the liberal theology for years. I don't even read it anymore.

[Musicman1228]

Stewarts "Thoughts on the Day of Atonement" is terrific in describing the purpose and function of the Day of Atonement. It clearly explains why Jesus did not come to save the ungodly. It is worth the read.

[Michaeneu]

I have NEVER said that grace does not exist, it does; just not in the form that Paul teaches. In his mind you are saved in spite of your sin because no one can become righteous; according to him it is just not possible. You know the drill as well as I do. The fact that you try to become righteous does not matter because you are saved by grace through faith.

[Michaeneu]

Can I just interject here MM?

God is waiting for us to get to the point where we admit that we cannot keep His Commandments.

Only then will He do the work in us that will remove sin from our lives...

Mark

Can I suggest a little tweak. Yah is waiting for us to admit that we can't keep His Commandments by ourselves, we need His help. When we admit that He shall meet our needs and He's much more powerful than us.

Michael

[Guest]

Amen! God will do for us, what we cannot do for ourselves.

The clarinet dosn't do much for me either.

[Musicman1228]

Michael, Paul does say that there will be righteous people, that is not and has never been the issue. The issue is HOW they become righteous. He says through grace by faith. Jesus Christ says we become righteous by becoming sanctified in the truth by using His words. Paul does not teach this. Only one of these theologies can be correct. Most Christians who are like you believe the salvation by grace model. I believe the model that Jesus taught.

My concern is that if only one of these modes of salvation is true then whoever believes the wrong one will be lost for eternity. I don't want that to happen and I know that is true for you as well. So where does that leave us in this situation? For me the only option I have is to go with the teaching of Jesus Christ, and that is only because I have declared myself a bondservant of His, and will be so until such a time as He see fit to change my status to a member of His family. This is a self-limiting status that does not allow me the luxury of believing the words and teachings of anyone other than Jesus Christ the Son of God. If you have not made this same declaration then you are not bound by these same restrictions and you can believe anyone or anything you desire. That does not mean that your belief will be right or wrong. It just means that the basis for your belief can be something other than only the words of Jesus Christ as given by His eyewitnesses.

We will both be held accountable for our decision about the source by which we identify truth. I personally feel safer sticking with the source for all truth rather than risking my eternal future on someone who is not God, whether or not he or she has had direct contact with God through visions or dreams.

[Guest]

2Ch 20:20 ... Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O you of little faith, why did you doubt?

You have stated MM,that you won't trust even God's prophets, even though he has told you to.

Throughout the Bible are stories of people who fell into terrible pitfalls and even death, because they wouldn't heed God's prophets.

[Dr. Rich]

Speaking of prophets, how about John? There are two distinct beasts found in Revelation 13. The last one is clearly Satan himself, so tell me about the first one. Does not it appear to be Hellenistic? Was not Greece Hellenistic? Does it not appear to be a one world government with 7 major religions joining it somehow? Don't these 7 major religions appear to join one another to fight against the truth given by the 144,000 at that time? Hmmm, just wondering...