The Beast of Revelation 13

[Michaeneu]

When, what date, did God remarry either the northern kingdom, southern kingdom. or both? I can't find it.

Your not looking, I've given you the scripture. There are none so blind...

[Michaeneu]

Michael, you offer Isaiah 54, I offer Isaiah 57. The whole Prophecy taken as one is life road or death road.

1 The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2 Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.

3 "But you--come here, you sons of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes! 4 Whom are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars? 5 You burn with lust among the oaks and under every spreading tree; you sacrifice your children in the ravines and under the overhanging crags. 6 The idols among the smooth stones of the ravines are your portion; they, they are your lot. Yes, to them you have poured out drink offerings and offered grain offerings. In the light of these things, should I relent? 7 You have made your bed on a high and lofty hill; there you went up to offer your sacrifices. 8 Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness. 9 You went to Molech with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the grave itself! 10 You were wearied by all your ways, but you would not say, 'It is hopeless.' You found renewal of your strength, and so you did not faint. 11 "Whom have you so dreaded and feared that you have been false to me, and have neither remembered me nor pondered this in your hearts? Is it not because I have long been silent that you do not fear me? 12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.

13 When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you! The wind will carry all of them off, a mere breath will blow them away. But the man who makes me his refuge will inherit the land and possess my holy mountain." 14 And it will be said: "Build up, build up, prepare the road! Remove the obstacles out of the way of my people." 15 For this is what the high and lofty One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite. 16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-- the breath of man that I have created.

17 I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him, 19 creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the Lord. "And I will heal them." 20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. 21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

I noted how you left out:

"I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him, creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the LORD. "And I will heal them." But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked." Isa. 57:17-21 NIV

How does that guy say it: "And the rest of the story." You guys always leave out the rest of the story.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

When, what date, did God remarry either the northern kingdom, southern kingdom. or both? I can't find it.

Your not looking, I've given you the scripture. There are none so blind...

I didn't ask for condescension, I just asked for the timing. Play nice.

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Michaeneu

Your not looking, I've given you the scripture. There are none so blind... [/quote']

I didn't ask for condescension, I just asked for the timing. Play nice.

I said, I gave you the scripture, now read them to understand!

[wayfinder]

Michael, you missed the point. The point was and is this: God promises blessings or curses, long life in the promised land or expulsion from the promised land. God always gives a choice, this started in the garden of paradise, don't eat from the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil and you will always have access to the tree of eternal life. But if you eat from the forbidden tree you will be executed on the day in which you eat from it. God did not execute Adam and Eve on that day, but He did bar them from access to the tree of life. God executed His Son in their place and purchased, with His blood a righteous nation.

Re 5:9,10

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Re 14:4

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

[Michaeneu]

Michael, you missed the point. The point was and is this: God promises blessings or curses, long life in the promised land or expulsion from the promised land. God always gives a choice, this started in the garden of paradise, don't eat from the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil and you will always have access to the tree of eternal life. But if you eat from the forbidden tree you will be executed on the day in which you eat from it. God did not execute Adam and Eve on that day, but He did bar them from access to the tree of life. God executed His Son in their place and purchased, with His blood a righteous nation.

Re 5:9,10

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Re 14:4

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

I’m not missing anything about your assertions. The blessing and curses are followed by the foreknowledge that they WOULD fail and break the covenant, but that there would always be a remnant in which the prophecies and promises are secure and that security is based predominately upon grace and faith. That bespeaks of an unconditional covenant with provisions of conditional grace upon the faith of the individual or sanctions for the unbelief of individuals. It’s clear that its you who is missing the point here, not me.

Michael

[Guest]

What you're saying makes good sense to me Michael, but you just said two bad words in their book. They don't like faith and grace. They don't think you need either one.

[wayfinder]

Richard, faith and grace are wonderful when used appropriately. Salvation by faith through grace apart from the Ten Commandments is where the problem starts.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

[Michaeneu]

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom. 3:31

[Musicman1228]

This is a perfect example where Paul says one thing in one verse, and says the opposite thing in another. That is why I am confused about Paul. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

To paraphrase: The Law no longer matters and is laid aside by grace. Did I say that? Heaven forbid, 'may it never be.' This happens all the time, and I don't quite know how to deal with it.

[John317]

This is a perfect example where Paul says one thing in one verse, and says the opposite thing in another. That is why I am confused about Paul. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

To paraphrase: The Law no longer matters and is laid aside by grace. Did I say that? Heaven forbid, 'may it never be.' This happens all the time, and I don't quite know how to deal with it.

But he doesn't say the law doesn't matter. Just because we can't earn salvation through works, or just because we can't be put right with God by law-keeping, doesn't mean God's law doesn't matter. Elsewhere (1 Cor. 7: 19) Paul says clearly that the keeping of God's commandments does matter. He says the same thing in 1 Cor. 9: 21. But where people make their mistake is to think that since we can't merit salvation or become righteous through law-keeping, we don't need to keep God's law. Clearly if keeping God's law didn't matter, Paul could not have written 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 or verses like Romans 2: 5-11.

So in Romans 3: 31 and again in Romans 6: 1, 15, Paul is anticipating what he knows some people will say in response to what he wrote in Romans 3 to 5. See, for instance, 3: 27-30. Can you see why Paul recognized that it was necessary to add v. 31?

God does indeed want us to keep His law, and the genuine acceptance of the gospel will certainly result in our obeying God, but it won't be in order to be saved or in order to make ourselves righteous in His sight. Rather, our obedience (loyalty/faithfulness) will spring from our faith (trust) and our love (commitment)-- from the law being written on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. Similarly a man and woman's desire to please their spouse should be due to their commitment and love and not be due to an attempt to earn their spouses' love or to prove that they are married because of the marriage certificate hanging from the wall.

[Dr. Rich]

John, did you really say "But where people make their mistake is to think that since we can't merit salvation or become righteous through law-keeping, we don't need to keep God's law."?

Man, do a little thinking on this. IF we can't trust what God said about keeping His commandments for salvation--then why in the world do you call yourself a SDA? Hmmmm?

[Guest]

Yes you need to keep the law Rich, but that's not what saves you.

[Guest]

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (Holy Spirit)

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Right there in the words of Jesus, is righteousness by faith.

[Musicman1228]

Yes you need to keep the law Rich, but that's not what saves you.

(I am not answering for Dr. Rich.)

I agree with you in this, Richard. But keeping the Law is a result of becoming righteous through the power of the Holy Spirit during the process of becoming sanctified in the Truth. This is done only through the words of Jesus Christ. At least that is what Jesus said. No one can become sanctified outside of the power of the Holy Spirit.

The sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross pays the penalty for our sins, it does NOT remove our sins from us; that is the job of the process of sanctification. Don't you agree?

[Guest]

Sanctification is the putting away of sin, with the help of the HS, yes.

[John317]

John, did you really say "But where people make their mistake is to think that since we can't merit salvation or become righteous through law-keeping, we don't need to keep God's law."?

Man, do a little thinking on this. IF we can't trust what God said about keeping His commandments for salvation--then why in the world do you call yourself a SDA? Hmmmm?

I don't know where you've been but the SDA church does not teach that we keep the Ten Commandments in order to earn salvation.

Makes me wonder how much you read of my post and also how much you learned about the beliefs and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Quote:

The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness.—Fundamental Beliefs, 18

We don't keep the law of God "for salvation." In order to merit salvation through law-keeping, you'd have to keep the law absolutely perfectly from the beginning of your life. Have you done it? If not, you are totally dependent upon God's unmerited favor for your justification and salvation. If you want to do it by law-keeping, you're starting too late and you haven't got a chance to succeed.

That doesn't mean God doesn't command you and me to keep His commandments, but it's not in order to merit justification or to make yourself righteous in His sight. Keeping the commandments has to do with loving God and wanting to do what's right, not in order to earn rewards or in order for God to save you. We need His Holy Spirit to write God's law on our heart and mind.

On our own-- apart from God's grace and righteousness-- we all merit eternal death. Christ alone merits eternal life because He alone is truly righteous. He alone perfectly obeyed the FAther. Therefore you and I are in desperate need of the unmerited favor of God. We're helpless and hopeless without Him. But with Him, all things are possible. By His stripes we are healed, and by His power He enables us to be what He created us to be, the righteousness of God in Christ.

[Guest]

I don't know where you've been but the SDA church does not teach that we keep the Ten Commandments in order to earn salvation.

Makes me wonder how much you read of my post and also how much you learned about the beliefs and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

We don't keep the law of God "for salvation." In order to merit salvation through law-keeping, you'd have to keep the law absolutely perfectly from the beginning of your life. Have you done it?

On our own-- apart from God's grace and righteousness-- we all merit eternal death. Christ alone merits eternal life because He alone is truly righteous. He alone perfectly obeyed the FAther. Therefore you and I are in desperate need of the unmerited favor of God. We're helpless and hopeless without Him. But with Him, all things are possible. By His stripes we are healed, and by His power He enables us to be what He created us to be, the righteousness of God in Christ.

Amen

[Musicman1228]

Sanctification is the putting away of sin, with the help of the HS, yes.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9.*

Is it possible to be cleansed from sin and become completely righteous? John seems to think so. We don't need to keep the law from birth for this to take place. We just have to recognize that no one with sin will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and do something about it. That doing is not just 'claiming the grace of Christ through faith'. That requires NOTHING but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Even Satan believes that Jesus is God.

We must be cleansed from sin, and we are the ones that must take the lead in doing that. God cannot move toward us unless we move toward Him first. He said, "I will be your God IF you will be my people".

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan. 12:10.

How does a person purify themselves and make themselves white and refined? See * above.

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly, He came to save those that have done what is written in 1John 1:9 and Dan. 12:10. Satan wants you to believe that this is a lie, that you are saved in spite of your sin. But that is a lie. Don't give in to lies, because only the Truth will make you free.

[Guest]

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 7:38 He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 7:39 (But this spoke he of the Spirit, whom they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Sanctification is the putting away of sin, with the help of the HS, yes.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9.*

Is it possible to be cleansed from sin and become completely righteous? John seems to think so.

Please read verse 7. It says, "... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Notice the apostle John uses the pronoun "us." He's including himself as among those who are being cleansed from all sin.

Yet notice that despite the fact that John is being cleansed from all sin, he says in verse 8, "If WE say that we HAVE no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

It's obvious, then, that although he's being cleansed from all sin, the apostle John still acknowledges that he has sin. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we lose the ability to choose to commit sin, and nowhere are we told we lose our sinful nature before the Second Coming. Therefore, until that time, we can't truthfully say that we have no sin.

It may help to understand that verse 7 is correctly translated, "... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son keeps continually cleansing us from every sin." (See Kenneth Wuest's Expanded Translation, cf. Charles B. Williams' The New Testament In the Language of the People.) The Greek verb is in the continuous present. It signifies that the cleansing is a continuous process. It isn't aorist, or punctiliar (about which, see below).

You will remember that the Bible refers to sanctification in two different ways: we have been sanctified and we are BEING sanctified. In other words, God set us apart for His service the moment we accepted Christ as our Savior and Lord; but we are continually being made holy through the Spirit from one day to the next. So sanctification is an ongoing process that will never stop. Hence we are being cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

Check out the verb differences:

Quote:

Present Tense

The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows 'action in progress' or 'a state of persistence.' When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.

For example: "In Whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." Eph 2:22

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together." Heb 10:25

Aorist Tense

The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5

"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6

Imperfect Tense

The imperfect tense shows continuous or linear type of action just like the present tense. It always indicates an action continually or repeatedly happening in past time. It portrays the action as going on for some extended period of time in the past.

The idea of continual action in the past does not apply when the verb "to be" is in the imperfect tense. There it should be considered a simple action happening in past time, without regard to its "on-going" or "repeated happening" in the past.

For example: "For you were once darkness, but now light in the Lord." Eph 5:8

Quote:

We don't need to keep the law from birth for this to take place.

Of course not. No one has said that one must keep the law perfectly from birth in order to obey what is written in 1 John 1: 5-10. But then you will notice that John's writings do not suggest that obedience to the commandments is what saves us.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9.*

Is it possible to be cleansed from sin and become completely righteous? John seems to think so.

Please read verse 7. It says, "... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Notice John uses the pronoun "us." He's including himself as among those who are being cleansed from all sin.

Yet notice that despite the fact that John is being cleansed from all sin, he says in verse 8, "If WE say that we HAVE no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

It may help to understand that verse 7 is correctly translated, "... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son keeps continually cleansing us from every sin." (See Kenneth Wuest's translation.) The Greek verb is in the continuous present. It signifies that the cleansing is a continuous process. The same applies to verse 9. Remember that "unrighteousness" and "sin" are the same thing.

Quote:

We don't need to keep the law from birth for this to take place. [/quote']

Of course not. No one has said that one must keep the law perfectly from birth in order to obey what is written in 1 John 1: 5-10. But then you will notice that John's writings do not suggest that obedience to the commandments is what saves us.

Amen

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Sanctification is the putting away of sin, with the help of the HS, yes.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9.*

Is it possible to be cleansed from sin and become completely righteous? John seems to think so. We don't need to keep the law from birth for this to take place. We just have to recognize that no one with sin will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and do something about it. That doing is not just 'claiming the grace of Christ through faith'. That requires NOTHING but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Even Satan believes that Jesus is God.

We must be cleansed from sin, and we are the ones that must take the lead in doing that. God cannot move toward us unless we move toward Him first. He said, "I will be your God IF you will be my people".

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan. 12:10.

How does a person purify themselves and make themselves white and refined? See * above.

Jesus did not come to save the ungodly, He came to save those that have done what is written in 1John 1:9 and Dan. 12:10. Satan wants you to believe that this is a lie, that you are saved in spite of your sin. But that is a lie. Don't give in to lies, because only the Truth will make you free.

In truth Yahweh makes the first moves or reaches out to us while we are still sinners.

“We love him, because he first loved us.” 1John 4:19:

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Matt. 9:13

How clear can John and Matthew be to you if you’re not even grasping that Christ came for sinners and he and his Father sought us out first. This bespeaks of faith and not works, least any man should boast.

Michael

[Guest]

Amen.

[Musicman1228]

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 7:38 He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 7:39 (But this spoke he of the Spirit, whom they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Believe what?