The Beast of Revelation 13

[wayfinder]

Michael, the lengths to which you will go. You tell me for sure, without any doubt, who wrote Hebrews and I will acknowledge this belief. Enoch was translated to heaven without seeing death. He was the seventh from Adam and was perfect in righteousness therefore He went to heaven to dwell. Noah was tenth from Adam and in his generation the world was destroyed. Seven the number denoting completeness/perfection. Ten the number denoting judgment. Seven and ten used together is the limit of forgiveness (full cup).

Jeremiah 25:11 ' This whole land will be a desolation and a horror, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Daniel 9:2

in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was {revealed as} the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, {namely,} seventy years.

Daniel 9:24

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy {place.}

Matthew 18:22

Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Seventy sevens exactly what God determined for Israel (490 years).

[John317]

You get that from the Jehovah Witnesses? They say exactly the same thing. Now that doesn't prove it to be false because they teach some truth, but your argument here is one I'm accustomed to hearing.

There are major problems for them and for those who accept their viewpoint of Enoch's "translation." Here's a few of them:

1) His "translation" resulted in Enoch's not dying. That was its purpose or goal.

If Enoch died, then the goal of the "translation" was not accomplished.

2) His "translation" was the result of Enoch's having pleased God. That was its cause.

3) Gen. 5: 24 tells us that "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." The Hebrew word translated "took" also means "took up," "took away," etc.

That "he was not" shows that Enoch was nowhere to be found. That is, he was not anywhere on earth.

4) Compare the age of Enoch and the ages of the others of his time. It says (v. 23) that Enoch only lived 365 years, a very brief life for those days. The others were living beyond 700 years. That is a strange statistic, because it would seem to suggest that if you please God, you don't live very long.

Or does it? To me it suggests that God "took him to Himself," which would explain why no one saw Him again and they lost all contact with him. That is far more sensible and in line with Scripture than to think that he simply disappeared somewhere on earth. How would being taken to a desolate place be a reward for pleasing God? And how would that be relevant to Enoch's faith/trust?

5) He appears at the Mt. of Transfiguration as a living person, and the Bible evidence that he was resurrected is totally non-existent. That leaves only one reasonable conclusion, which is that his "translation" "took him" to be with God. Enoch's experience demonstrates what God will do with all those whose trust/faith pleases God, for He comes for them and takes them to be with Him (cf. John 14: 3; Heb. 9: 28). That should help motivate us to show a similar trust in God. (Trust=obedience to the voice and will of God.)

(By the way, as shown in a previous post on this thread, the word translated as "vision" is also used in the NT of very real, actual events.)

6) Ellen White teaches plainly that Enoch did not die but was taken to heaven, a view which I find is supported by the evidence of Scripture.

[wayfinder]

Very good John317, well thought out and presented.

[John317]

Thank you.

You no doubt noticed Ellen White is at the end of the list. :-)

Ellen White is not proof of what happened to Enoch, but for those who believe in her, it is significant that she says what she does, in light of the Bible evidence. Always she is tested by Scripture and not the other way round.

[wayfinder]

Yes I noticed and yes I concur with you evaluation.:)

[Guest]

Amen

[Michaeneu]

You get that from the Jehovah Witnesses? They say exactly the same thing. Now that doesn't prove it to be false because they teach some truth, but your argument here is one I'm accustomed to hearing.

There are major problems for them and for those who accept their viewpoint of Enoch's "translation." Here's a few of them:

1) His "translation" resulted in Enoch's not dying. That was its purpose or goal.

If Enoch died, then the goal of the "translation" was not accomplished.

2) His "translation" was the result of Enoch's having pleased God. That was its cause.

3) Gen. 5: 24 tells us that "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." The Hebrew word translated "took" also means "took up," "took away," etc.

That "he was not" shows that Enoch was nowhere to be found. That is, he was not anywhere on earth.

4) Compare the age of Enoch and the ages of the others of his time. It says (v. 23) that Enoch only lived 365 years, a very brief life for those days. The others were living beyond 700 years. That is a strange statistic, because it would seem to suggest that if you please God, you don't live very long.

Or does it? To me it suggests that God "took him to Himself," which would explain why no one saw Him again and they lost all contact with him. That is far more sensible and in line with Scripture than to think that he simply disappeared somewhere on earth. How would being taken to a desolate place be a reward for pleasing God? And how would that be relevant to Enoch's faith/trust?

5) He appears at the Mt. of Transfiguration as a living person, and the Bible evidence that he was resurrected is totally non-existent. That leaves only one reasonable conclusion, which is that his "translation" "took him" to be with God. Enoch's experience demonstrates what God will do with all those whose trust/faith pleases God, for He comes for them and takes them to be with Him (cf. John 14: 3; Heb. 9: 28). That should help motivate us to show a similar trust in God. (Trust=obedience to the voice and will of God.)

(By the way, as shown in a previous post on this thread, the word translated as "vision" is also used in the NT of very real, actual events.)

6) Ellen White teaches plainly that Enoch did not die but was taken to heaven, a view which I find is supported by the evidence of Scripture.

Actually I never knew the JWs held he view, but as you said, they do teach some truth, like the state of the dead!

As to your issues concerning the meaning of “translation”, I’ve already given but one meaning from another lexicon, so that issue is arbitrary. Another place does not automatically translate into paradise.

As to the reasons Yahweh took Enoch to “another place” that is left for only Yahweh to know as Jn. 3:13 pronounced, no man hath ascended and then descended to reveal “this” heavenly thing; Christ certainly didn’t. Consequently, your opinions are merely subjective and I could just as easily assert my opinions and maybe I will.

But that Enoch appeared on the Mt. of transfiguration, I believe you had better read your Bible again; that vision concerned Elijah and Moses, not Enoch.

“Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” Matt. 17:3 NIV

And I noticed that you did not address Hebrews 11, for we know from this chapter that Moses and Enoch died and did not or have not received the promise of the resurrection.

“ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth….Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection…. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” Heb. 11:13, 35 39-40 KJV

Of course it speaks of the first resurrection, which the NT makes very clear does not happen until Christ returns. This is the most elemental promise that is the object of Hebrews 11. And Moses is included in the list of those who died and have not received the promise of the resurrection. This is why the word “vision” in Matthew 17 simply cannot be construed as you imply; Moses and Elijah must wait to put on immortality according to the scriptures—like the rest of us, including Enoch. Without the heavenly tabernacle they can't inherit the KOH!

As for Ellen White, let the chips fall where they may; I hold the scriptures above EGW, not the other way around. I hold the truth above any human loyalty and even if the JWs believe it or not.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

Michael said, "As for Ellen White, let the chips fall where they may; I hold the scriptures above EGW, not the other way around. I hold the truth above any human loyalty and even if the JWs believe it or not."

I heartily agree with you in this statement; except I will go one step farther; I hold the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as truth, and above that of human loyalty, and above any other Scripture. This does not mean that I reject any other Scripture out of hand-I just view the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as pre-eminent, above all the rest.

[Michaeneu]

Michael said, "As for Ellen White, let the chips fall where they may; I hold the scriptures above EGW, not the other way around. I hold the truth above any human loyalty and even if the JWs believe it or not."

I heartily agree with you in this statement; except I will go one step farther; I hold the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as truth, and above that of human loyalty, and above any other Scripture. This does not mean that I reject any other Scripture out of hand-I just view the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as pre-eminent, above all the rest.

Well, you have been quoted as to accepting John (that eye witness thang ya noww). And here is what John testified that Christ related to him at some time.

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” Jn. 1:18

The pretty much puts Wayfinder’s presumptions on John 3:13 in the refuse for me (of course I knew that’s were it belonged anyway). Unless you want to try some more presumptions that Enoch, Moses and Elijah were in some corner in heaven and couldn’t or hadn’t turned around to see Yahweh when John wrote this. It is much easier to believe the scriptures that Enoch and Elijah died and won’t be raised until Christ returns.

“Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.” Ps. 89: 47-48

BTW, the Church of God also teaches that Enoch, Moses and Elijah all died and didn't go to heaven, but I didn't learn it from them either. I learned in when I read John 3:13 and studied it out myself. I must admit that I got further understanding from reading COG literature some years back.

Michael

[wayfinder]

Exodus 24:9-11

9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Michael, I guess your going to have to pull me out of the trash.

[Michaeneu]

Exodus 24:9-11

9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Michael, I guess your going to have to pull me out of the trash.

“And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.” Ex. 33:20

You mean Enoch, Moses and Elijah have put on immortality and seen the face of Yahweh in paradise? The scriptures simply don’t support any such notion. The text you quoted only supports they saw a representation of Yahweh and not his real person or they would have died. Living in paradise is another subject altogether.

Michael

[John317]

Actually I never knew the JWs held he view, but as you said, they do teach some truth, like the state of the dead!

Their leader, Charles Taze Russell, was influenced by a former prominant Millerite preacher, George Storrs, who wrote pamphlets about the state of the dead. These pamphlets also influenced Joseph Bates and James White. The JWs believed in the 1,260 days until the 1930s, but they dated them from 539 to 1799. Russell read quite a few books by early Sunday-keeping Adventists, which explains some of the similarities between SDAs and JWs.

A major reason the JWs teach what they do about Enoch and Elijah and Moses-- that none of them were translated to heaven-- is that JWs believe human beings cannot be taken to heaven. They believe "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and therefore it was impossible for those men to be translated. JWs believe that only spirit creatures can go to heaven.

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Michaeneu

Actually I never knew the JWs held he view, but as you said, they do teach some truth, like the state of the dead!

Their leader, Charles Taze Russell, was influenced by a former prominant Millerite preacher, George Storrs, who wrote pamphlets about the state of the dead. These pamphlets also influenced Joseph Bates and James White. The JWs believed in the 1,260 days until the 1930s, but they dated them from 539 to 1799. Russell read quite a few books by early Sunday-keeping Adventists, which explains some of the similarities between SDAs and JWs.

A major reason the JWs teach what they do about Enoch and Elijah and Moses-- that none of them were translated to heaven-- is that JWs believe human beings cannot be taken to heaven. They believe "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and therefore it was impossible for those men to be translated. JWs believe that only spirit creatures can go to heaven.

And you don't believe what Paul wrote, that flesh and blood can't inherit the KOH? And I'm not implying Gnosticism either. I believe in the glorified flesh and blood inherit the KOH, but according to scripture all men die because all men are sinners, including Enoch, Moses and Elijah. And all men in Christ will be made alive again, but ever man in his own order, first Christ then Enoch and the rest of us at Christ's return.

Michael

[wayfinder]

Hummmmmmmm.

[Ted Oplinger]

I am certain that Enoch is one of the Elders and possibly Daniel (Daniel 12:9), I don't know. What I do know is that the term/title Elder implies that they have the experience to sit in the judgment hall as witness/peers to the character and deeds of those who are being examined. It seems that when ever a verdict is rendered the Elders concur with the judgment.

God told Daniel his resurrection would be at the end of the age (Dan. 12:13). He isn't there yet.

As profoundly of impact the visions of chapters 7, 8, and 9 were upon Daniel (stunned, caused to go into mourning, made him sick for weeks), God may want to keep him asleep, so that the actual unfolding of the prochecies don't cause Daniel more pain than the original visions did.

Mercy in action. And Daniel won't know any different..

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: John317

Their leader, Charles Taze Russell, was influenced by a former prominant Millerite preacher, George Storrs, who wrote pamphlets about the state of the dead. These pamphlets also influenced Joseph Bates and James White. The JWs believed in the 1,260 days until the 1930s, but they dated them from 539 to 1799. Russell read quite a few books by early Sunday-keeping Adventists, which explains some of the similarities between SDAs and JWs.

A major reason the JWs teach what they do about Enoch and Elijah and Moses-- that none of them were translated to heaven-- is that JWs believe human beings cannot be taken to heaven. They believe "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and therefore it was impossible for those men to be translated. JWs believe that only spirit creatures can go to heaven. [/quote']

And you don't believe what Paul wrote, that flesh and blood can't inherit the KOH? And I'm not implying Gnosticism either. I believe in the glorified flesh and blood inherit the KOH, but according to scripture all men die because all men are sinners, including Enoch, Moses and Elijah. And all men in Christ will be made alive again, but ever man in his own order, first Christ then Enoch and the rest of us at Christ's return.

Michael

Agreed there, Michael....to a point. Paul also said this mortal will put on the immortal. Sin isn't an issue of flesh and blood, as Adam and Eve were flesh and blood, and beheld God face-to-face in Eden.

Christ Himself had a glorified body which could be touched, and it is recorded He ate food with it. I think He went to heaven in it....and will come again one day in it, too.

[Michaeneu]

Originally Posted By: Michaeneu

Agreed there, Michael....to a point. Paul also said this mortal will put on the immortal. Sin isn't an issue of flesh and blood, as Adam and Eve were flesh and blood, and beheld God face-to-face in Eden.

Christ Himself had a glorified body which could be touched, and it is recorded He ate food with it. I think He went to heaven in it....and will come again one day in it, too.

Again, you, like John, are mistaken; I haven’t even hinted at Gnosticism! Gnosticism asserts that the material world is intrinsically evil and nuances of this have been imbibed by the JWs, but not the Church of God that holds the same understanding from the scriptures without such Gnostic influences. I must confirm the latter because the scriptures bear it out.

Adam and Eve walked with Yahweh but when they fell that relationship ended and the scriptures are very clear that the nature of man’s flesh degenerated from that time forward. The object of Paul’s statement that flesh and blood can’t inherit the KOG, is not that the flesh itself is intrinsically evil but that it is subject to degeneration; it must be glorified in order to inherit the KOG. Christ came in the likeness of Adam’s flesh after the fall and had to be glorified before he came before his Father and Paul’s statement supports the same thing: no one can inherit the KOG in the degenerate flesh of Adam.

Now what would be the preeminence of Christ as firstborn if it were not being the first that was glorified, because there were others that preceded him as being made alive again?

Michael

[Dr. Rich]

Gen. 4:16 "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden." Here it shows that Cain was in the presence of the Lord after the fall of Adam. What Adam and Eve were kicked out of was the garden that God had made, not from the presence of God.

And--do you believe that Christ was born with a sinful flesh?

[Michaeneu]

Gen. 4:16 "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden." Here it shows that Cain was in the presence of the Lord after the fall of Adam. What Adam and Eve were kicked out of was the garden that God had made, not from the presence of God.

And--do you believe that Christ was born with a sinful flesh?

“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Ps. 5:4

What you’ll find if you dig deeper is that it was pre-incarnate Christ acting as mediator in the Genesis 4, not the Father. The Father does not abide with evil.

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” Rom. 8:3

“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil. 2:7-8

What ever the likeness of sinful flesh means, Christ entered a body that was degenerating—growing older and subject to death, disease and infirmities.

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Heb. 4:15

Yet the NT is clear that Christ was glorified at his ascension and consequently took preeminence as the first born of all creation and that would include preeminence over Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The latter all died and shall not be glorified until Christ’s return. Only then will they receive the promise according to Hebrews 11. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOH. EGW was wrong about Enoch being taken to paradise.

Michael

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Gen. 4:16 "Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden." Here it shows that Cain was in the presence of the Lord after the fall of Adam. What Adam and Eve were kicked out of was the garden that God had made, not from the presence of God.

And--do you believe that Christ was born with a sinful flesh?

“For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Ps. 5:4

What you’ll find if you dig deeper is that it was pre-incarnate Christ acting as mediator in the Genesis 4, not the Father. The Father does not abide with evil.

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” Rom. 8:3

“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil. 2:7-8

What ever the likeness of sinful flesh means, Christ entered a body that was degenerating—growing older and subject to death, disease and infirmities.

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Heb. 4:15

Yet the NT is clear that Christ was glorified at his ascension and consequently took preeminence as the first born of all creation and that would include preeminence over Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The latter all died and shall not be glorified until Christ’s return. Only then will they receive the promise according to Hebrews 11. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOH. EGW was wrong about Enoch being taken to paradise.

Michael

The latter all died and shall not be glorified until Christ’s return.

So who did Jesus see on the "mount of transfiguration"?

Where do you derive this idea from, that Elijah, Enoch and Moses were not translated?

Mark :-)

[Michaeneu]

So who did Jesus see on the "mount of transfiguration"?

Where do you derive this idea from, that Elijah, Enoch and Moses were not translated?

Mark :-)

Mark, I’ve already addressed much of this but for your edification let me reiterate.

As to transfiguration, Christ pronounces that it was a “vision”.

“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.” Matt. 17:9

“3706 horama…. Mt. xvii. 9 ; a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in sleep…” (Thayer’s Greek~English Lexicon of the New Testament)

We know it the disciples were given a vision of what was to come, but not the actual event of the persons of Moses and Elijah because Christ would have been telling an untruth to Nicodemus and that no man has ascended to the Father.

“If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Jn. 3:12-13

Hebrews also confirms this when it lists many who have died in faith and have not received the promises and Enoch is one.

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him… These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth…. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” Heb. 11: 5, 13, 39-40

Hebrews list many of the patriarchs, Enoch being one, who have all died not having received the promises and must wait until everyone else receives them at Christ’s return. Consequently, the translation of Enoch so that he not see death in verse 5 must refer to the second death such as in the texts below (he was merely moved from one place on earth to another so that no one would find his body, just like Moses).

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” Jn. 8:51

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” Jn. 11:26

Enoch and Moses are listed in Hebrews as those who died in faith not receiving the promises and await until as we all must until the return of Christ. No man has seen the Father according to John chapter 1.

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” Jn. 1:18

Yet the NT is clear that Christ was glorified at his ascension and consequently took preeminence as the first born of all creation and that would include preeminence over Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The latter all died and shall not be glorified until Christ’s return. Only then will they receive the promise according to Hebrews 11. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KOH. EGW was wrong about Enoch being taken to paradise.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

When did the being that became 'Jesus Christ' upon His birth become the 'Son of God'?

[Michaeneu]

When did the being that became 'Jesus Christ' upon His birth become the 'Son of God'?

Did you know the Adventists pioneers weren't Trinitarians?

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks Michael--but you didn't answer my question. By the way, when you attempt to answer one of my questions by using the writer of Romans or Hebrews, it does not mean much--if anything--to me. And everyone knows God can't live with evil--that is why Satan got kicked out of heaven. John told us that when someone is born of the Holy Spirit they can't sin anymore. Isn't this correct?

So--again, do you believe that Christ was born with evil or sinful flesh? Yes or No. You don't have to write a book about your answer.

[John317]

John told us that when someone is born of the Holy Spirit they can't sin anymore. Isn't this correct?

The Holy Spirit does not take away people's freedom to sin if they choose to. What 1 John 3: 1-10 is saying is that those with God's seed, or nature, cannot continue to practice sin. It's not saying they can't commit a sin. The Greek verb is in the continuous present, indicating the deliberate practice of sin. See the Amplified Version.

Compare 1 John 1: 5-10; 2: 1-6 and 1 John 3: 1-10. There is complete harmony between these verses.