The Beast of Revelation 13

[Guest]

And he said unto him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. Mat 19:17

[Musicman1228]

Yes, Richard, as I have said several times before the OT as a whole is a reliable source of truth. Gen.2 did occur, I believe after Gen.1 was finished. Gen.2 is not a restatement of Gen.1, but follows after.

As to how righteousness works with regard to salvation please read John 3:1-21. Don't stop at v.16, but include it in the context and see what you get.

[oldsailor29]

Yes, Richard, as I have said several times before the OT as a whole is a reliable source of truth. Gen.2 did occur, I believe after Gen.1 was finished. Gen.2 is not a restatement of Gen.1, but follows after.

As to how righteousness works with regard to salvation please read John 3:1-21. Don't stop at v.16, but include it in the context and see what you get.

I think the second creation story came first, and the story of Genesis one which ends in the creation of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 or 4a was a remake of the original creation story, in answer to the pagan nature worshipper's story.

[Musicman1228]

That could be. Didn't God give Moses the Pentatuch on Sinai?

[Ted Oplinger]

That could be. Didn't God give Moses the Pentatuch on Sinai?

No. Only part of the Pentatuch can be traced to Sinai.

God gave Moses the 10 Commandment Law, the instructions for building the tabernacle, and the instructions for the sacrifices rites at Mt Sinai.

The Pentatuch contains also many events that happened after Mt. Sinai, as well as judgments and law interpretations given from God to Moses after that event.

Moses wrote the books during the 40 years Israel was wandering in the wilderness.

[Musicman1228]

Ted said, "Moses wrote the books during the 40 years Israel was wandering in the wilderness."

That may be, but from whom did the information in Genesis come? Did Moses get it out of thin air (maybe he did if he was at a high altitude on Sinai)?

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Oldsailor, that's what you get for thinking. But thanks for letting us know what you are thinking about. But oldsailor, can you tell me why it is "God" in the first chapter and "The Lord God" in the second chapter?

[Michaeneu]

I do not believe that Elijah or David or Moses or any of the 24 Elders (whoever they are) will be coming back to earth ahead of the coming of Christ in the clouds. The 24 Elders are human beings that are in Heaven acting as witnesses to verify that God has acted in accordance with His laws with respect to the sin problem on the earth.

It is my understanding that Satan is not above using ANY means to deceive the elect (if it were possible), either fair or foul. Can you imagine the chaos in the SDA church if just prior to the Great Tribulation during the shaking of the church Satan sends demons in the form of Ellen and James White marching down the center isle at the Loma Linda University church, or Slago, or Pioneer at Andrews claiming "that the Lord resurrected them in a 'special' resurrection to be present during the final events of the earth, oh and by the way that being of light that will stand in the temple in Jerusalem really will be Jesus Christ". I wonder how many dedicated Adventists would actually believe that.

[phkrause]

I don't agree with musicman on this, but Michaeneu, didn't God take Enoch, Moses and Elijah to Heaven? The Bible says that Enoch walked with God and God took him to heaven. In Jude I believe it mentions that Jesus took Moses. And Elijah was swept up in a chariot of fire. And didn't Moses and Elijah visit with Jesus?

pk

[wayfinder]

Matthew 17:1-4

Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Michael, are you saying that Moses and Elijah were resurrected just for this occasion and then went back to sleep? I think not. Moses and Elijah descended from heaven where they lived and then ascended back to heaven. They, along with 22 other elders, are in heaven observing the salvation process on earth. They are a jury of our peers in the judgment.

[phkrause]

I don't except, wayfinder, that the 24 elders are those that have been resurrected already. And I really believe that if Moses and Elijah are 2 of them, John would've said so. And if that were the case than why not Enoch?

pk

[wayfinder]

I am certain that Enoch is one of the Elders and possibly Daniel (Daniel 12:9), I don't know. What I do know is that the term/title Elder implies that they have the experience to sit in the judgment hall as witness/peers to the character and deeds of those who are being examined. It seems that when ever a verdict is rendered the Elders concur with the judgment.

[Michaeneu]

I don't agree with musicman on this, but Michaeneu, didn't God take Enoch, Moses and Elijah to Heaven? The Bible says that Enoch walked with God and God took him to heaven. In Jude I believe it mentions that Jesus took Moses. And Elijah was swept up in a chariot of fire. And didn't Moses and Elijah visit with Jesus?

pk

PK, we can’t have the scriptures conflict and Christ pronounced that NO MAN had ascended to heaven, and that would be the third heaven or paradise, because that is from whence Christ descended according to the text.

“If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Jn. 3:12-13

I’m not in the habit of arguing with Christ; NO MAN had ascended in the heaven! The texts concerning Elijah and Enoch NEVER actually state that they were taken to paradise; that assertion is by presumption. In Elijah’s case the “first heaven” is the only proper way of interpreting the account to maintain fidelity to Christ’s pronounced. Elijah was taken away in a chariot (2 Kings 2:11) into the first heaven and he was seen no more by any man, but paradise was obvious not his destination, or are you saying he put on immortality because flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom? The matter of Enoch is no different.

As to transfiguring of Christ, Christ pronounces there that it was a “vision”.

“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.” Matt. 17:9

“3706 horama…. Mt. xvii. 9 ; a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in sleep…” (Thayer’s Greek~English Lexicon of the New Testament)

The disciples were given a vision of what was to come, but not the actual event of the persons of Moses and Elijah because Christ would have been telling an untruth to Nicodemus and that can’t be the case. And Jude is not help for such an assertion either. Contending for the body of Moses is a far cry from Moses ascending to paradise.

Bottom line, are we going to uphold what Christ pronounced or are we going to uphold the immortal soul notion of Babylon that declares and that after we die we go to paradise?

Michael

[wayfinder]

Michael, look at the context.

John 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Same context as

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

What Jesus is telling Nicodemus is that no one has gone up into heaven to witness heavenly things, but He alone has witnessed these heavenly things and has come to earth and testified to these things.

[Guest]

What if Jesus meant that no man had ascended to heaven while he was here in humanity?

[Michaeneu]

Michael, look at the context.

John 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Same context as

Deuteronomy 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

What Jesus is telling Nicodemus is that no one has gone up into heaven to witness heavenly things, but He alone has witnessed these heavenly things and has come to earth and testified to these things.

I highlighted your comment above to show you that you can’t get around this. Even you have to state that NO MAN “has gone up to paradise"… NO MAN had yet witnessed what Christ came down to witness. How does that help your case? It doesn’t.

Michael

[wayfinder]

I said that no man had gone up to heaven and returned to earth to testify about what he had heard while in heaven. Jesus is the only One to testify to what is in heaven, because He is the only one who has come down from heaven.

[Michaeneu]

NIV is even more explicit.

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man." Jn. 3:13 NIV

Michael

[wayfinder]

Michael, you are using cut and paste. Please consider the entire context, which I have already pointed out.

[Michaeneu]

I said that no man had gone up to heaven and returned to earth to testify about what he had heard while in heaven. Jesus is the only One to testify to what is in heaven, because He is the only one who has come down from heaven.

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Jn. 3:13

The texts states very clearly there is only ONE man that ascended and he is the same one that descended—Christ—to witness the things he was telling Nicodemus. There is no mention of anyone else that ascended and couldn’t then descend. That is interpretation by presumption.

BTW we have conflict with the transfiguration if your presumption were true: Moses and Elijah.

Michael

[wayfinder]

Michael, I did not say they couldn't descend, I said they did not descend to testify to the things of heaven. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus, and is true today also, no one had had ascended into heaven to witness to heavenly things and then descended back to earth to witness to what they saw. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "if I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how then if I tell you heavenly things"

[Michaeneu]

Michael, I did not say they couldn't descend, I said they did not descend to testify to the things of heaven. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus, and is true today also, no one had had ascended into heaven to witness to heavenly things and then descended back to earth to witness to what they saw. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "if I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how then if I tell you heavenly things"

Like I said, that is interpretation by presumption. No where does the text remotely express what you state. It conflicts with Christ statement and 1 Corinthians.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Cor. 15:22-23

I speak now to the others, because your paradigm casts out Paul. The text above is specific concerning putting on immorality and only those who put on immortality can enter the kingdom of heaven. The others have to reconcile Paul here with the concept that Enoch and Elijah were raised to paradise.

Michael

[wayfinder]

You are right about what I think of 1 Corinthians. Elijah was not "raised" as from the grave, he went to heaven in a "chariot of fire" while Elisha looked on.

2 Kings 2:9-12

When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me." He said, "You have asked a hard thing. {Nevertheless,} if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be {so.}" As they were going along and talking, behold, {there appeared} a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Elisha saw {it} and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

[John317]

“3706 horama…. Mt. xvii. 9 ; a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in sleep…” (Thayer’s Greek~English Lexicon of the New Testament)

If you go deeper into the meaning and use of this word in the NT, you will find that it is also used to describe very real, actual things. For instance, it is used to describe the "coming" or "appearing" of Moses (Acts 7: 26) at the time he killed the Egyptian; and it is used to describe "the sight" of the burning bush (Acts 7: 31). Those were both actual events, not something that merely appeared to occur in people's minds.

What this shows is that Matt. 17: 9 cannot be said to be a "dream" simply because the NT calls it a horama.

[Michaeneu]

The importance of not casting out the NT epistles becomes very significant here because according to Hebrews Enoch died and has NOT received the promise of eternal life as yet.

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Heb. 11:5

The word “translated” comes from the word metatithemi, meaning “to transfer to another place. But Enoch tasted death, confirmed in the succeeding context.

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth…. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” Heb. 11:13, 39-40

See what happens when we cast off the inspired words of the NT? Enoch was not translated to paradise, but merely another place on earth to taste death.

Now we see the significance of 1 Corinthians 15.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Cor. 15:22-23

Bottom line, are we going to uphold what Christ pronounced or are we going to uphold the immortal soul notion of Babylon that declares and that after we die we go to paradise?

Michael