The Beast of Revelation 13

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The Elijah the individual has already come and as Israel of old did not recognize that it was John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah, no more have we recognized that Ellen White came in the spirit and power of Elijah except with much more light to prepare a people to stand in the day of the Lord.

"The Jews tried to stop the proclamation of the message that had been predicted in the Word of God; but prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says, 'Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.' Mal.4:5. Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, 'You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.'

Now notice how in the next sentence Mrs. White implies that this is exactly what was done to her:

"There are many who cannot distinguish the work of God from that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth." 1 S.M.412.

This is a crystal clear indication that she was that "somebody" who was to come and her ministry was no more appreciated by the religious authorities of our day than was the ministry of John the Baptist in Christ's day.

sky

Big Amen!!

Amen Richard. The Jews are still waiting for Messiah to come when He has already come. Many today are waiting for Elijah to come when he has already come. And then we are told that when the latter rain falls it will be falling on hearts all around us but we shall not discern or receive it. See T.M.507.

sky

[Guest]

That's only if you are not living up to the light you have.

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it. {TM 507}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The Bible dosn't speak of Daniel being resurrected for that, but it does speak of Elijah.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5

The thing is, Elijah won't require resurrection. He was translated straight to heaven and never tasted death - just like Enoch.

good catch! i missed that!

[Guest]

I never said Elijah would be resurrected. He never died.

[Musicman1228]

I do not believe that Elijah or David or Moses or any of the 24 Elders (whoever they are) will be coming back to earth ahead of the coming of Christ in the clouds. The 24 Elders are human beings that are in Heaven acting as witnesses to verify that God has acted in accordance with His laws with respect to the sin problem on the earth.

It is my understanding that Satan is not above using ANY means to deceive the elect (if it were possible), either fair or foul. Can you imagine the chaos in the SDA church if just prior to the Great Tribulation during the shaking of the church Satan sends demons in the form of Ellen and James White marching down the center isle at the Loma Linda University church, or Slago, or Pioneer at Andrews claiming "that the Lord resurrected them in a 'special' resurrection to be present during the final events of the earth, oh and by the way that being of light that will stand in the temple in Jerusalem really will be Jesus Christ". I wonder how many dedicated Adventists would actually believe that.

[Guest]

MM,

how do you know the 24 elders are human beings?

[teresaq]

MM,

how do you know the 24 elders are human beings?

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

[skyblue888]

Yes they sure are.

[Guest]

Ok, verse nine clears it up I think.

[teresaq]

I never said Elijah would be resurrected. He never died.

i should have been more careful in my editing. if i remember correctly his post was dealing with other posts not yours. my bad. im sorry, truly.

[Guest]

Tis ok

[Musicman1228]

John called them 'Elders'. An Elder is one who comes before, and John identified with them because they were human. We know that there are any number of humans that have been taken to Heaven from the O.T., but there was another resurrection that occurred at the time of Christ's death and it is possible that those people could have been taken to Heaven. After all, would it not have been cruel of God to resurrect someone from the grave, give them a renewed taste of life, only to allow them to die again later?

[Guest]

I already conceeded the point in a previous post, one page back.

[Ted Oplinger]

Yes I know he never died. Are you saying there will be another, after Ellen White?

I am saying in the end, God will move upon His people like has not been seen since Pentecost, pouring out His Spirit in such a manner it will be immistakable Who is doing the work - and it will bear the same imprint as Elijah's ministry, just like John the Baptist's ministry which paved the way for Christ's First Advent.

That is a point very consistent with Sister White's own position on the subject.

Ellen never once claimed that she would be the final demonstration of the prohetic gift; rather, I do remember she did say several times God had much, much more light to pour upon His people than Adventists currently have. That she passed to her sleep should lead one to the logical conclusion God will raise one or more prophetic guides to take up that very work.

While we dwell frequently on the prophetic gift...what will the Adventist church do with the apostolic gift? We seem to treat that gift in the same manner as the way the rest of Christendom treats our position on the prophetic gift - as already passed, no longer need...

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

MM,

how do you know the 24 elders are human beings?

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This is a case where the King James actually has the better translation for the verse.

But...if one didn't want to go with the KJV, then their description in Rev. 4:4, and their proclamation to Jesus at the end of Rev. 4, should seal that deal.

No other Created Race exceot Man needs white garments (the same white garments Christ counels His Church to buy of Him in Rev 3:18), no other race receives/wear crowns in God's presence, and they are shown declaring Christ to be Lord and God (a speech pattern known of those redeemed, but not seen among those not needed redeeming).

To me, that makes them human.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes I know he never died. Are you saying there will be another, after Ellen White?

I am saying in the end, God will move upon His people like has not been seen since Pentecost, pouring out His Spirit in such a manner it will be immistakable Who is doing the work - and it will bear the same imprint as Elijah's ministry, just like John the Baptist's ministry which paved the way for Christ's First Advent.

That is a point very consistent with Sister White's own position on the subject.

Ellen never once claimed that she would be the final demonstration of the prohetic gift; rather, I do remember she did say several times God had much, much more light to pour upon His people than Adventists currently have. That she passed to her sleep should lead one to the logical conclusion God will raise one or more prophetic guides to take up that very work.

While we dwell frequently on the prophetic gift...what will the Adventist church do with the apostolic gift? We seem to treat that gift in the same manner as the way the rest of Christendom treats our position on the prophetic gift - as already passed, no longer need...

I agree. When the Holy Spirit is poured out in large measure many will prophesy and the earth will be lightened with the glory of God. This is what Mrs. White longed for.

sky

[Musicman1228]

The need for (further?) end time prophets implies that Jesus Christ and God did not give sufficient information through Daniel and John in Revelation for the Kingdom of Heaven to accomplish the tasks for which the Kingdom had been established in 1844. Must new light always come from prophets or can it come from a deeper understanding of prophecy already given? The mind set of traditional SDA thinking is that no 'NEW LIGHT' will disagree with any light previously established. If that is the case then why would God send another prophet with 'new light' to correct the understanding of the church when He knows that the church will reject the 'new light' as false because of the policy that new light will never change old light.

My understanding is that God has given His people sufficient information in the Biblical prophecies of Daniel, John in Revelation, and from the greatest prophet Jesus Christ Himself that went looked at with a fresh perspective the understanding of end time events and timing will be made plain. The meaning of the 7 Thunders will not always stay hidden.

[Guest]

God's Truth never changes

[Musicman1228]

You are correct, God's truth never changes; our understanding of what that truth is does and should change. Age does not change lies into truth (paraphrase from EGW.)

[Guest]

If you have the correct understanding, why would it change? Time dosn't change truth into lies.

[Ted Oplinger]

The need for (further?) end time prophets implies that Jesus Christ and God did not give sufficient information through Daniel and John in Revelation for the Kingdom of Heaven to accomplish the tasks for which the Kingdom had been established in 1844. Must new light always come from prophets or can it come from a deeper understanding of prophecy already given? The mind set of traditional SDA thinking is that no 'NEW LIGHT' will disagree with any light previously established. If that is the case then why would God send another prophet with 'new light' to correct the understanding of the church when He knows that the church will reject the 'new light' as false because of the policy that new light will never change old light.

[Musicman1228]

If the function of the Holy Spirit began at Penticost then what was the purpose of the Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to His disciples in the following verses:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”  And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” John 20:21-23.

If He gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples before He ascended to His Father the 2nd time (until His coming in the clouds) why would He need to give the Holy Spirit to them again on Penticost?

[Ted Oplinger]

If the function of the Holy Spirit began at Penticost then what was the purpose of the Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to His disciples in the following verses:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”  And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” John 20:21-23.

If He gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples before He ascended to His Father the 2nd time (until His coming in the clouds) why would He need to give the Holy Spirit to them again on Penticost?

You're avoiding the point, Musicman. You know full well the reference of what I am making - regardless of whether one believes the Holy Spirit was given when you say or at Pentecost. Your desire to engage in niggling here leads me to conclude you don't have a good answer for my points above.

[Musicman1228]

Please tell me when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples. This question is not avoiding any point, because it goes to the core of which Spirit was going to continue to educate the disciples in the truth. Does the Holy Spirit need a translator in order to show the followers of Jesus Christ what is true and what isn't?

[Ted Oplinger]

Please tell me when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples. This question is not avoiding any point, because it goes to the core of which Spirit was going to continue to educate the disciples in the truth. Does the Holy Spirit need a translator in order to show the followers of Jesus Christ what is true and what isn't?

The "when" is not germaine to this section of this thread, or to my question. Your assertion was that since Daniel, Christ and John gave all the information needed, there was no further need for prophets or further enlightenment. My reply was that Christian Church has needed God's guidance and enlightenment ever since it was empowered with the Holy Spirit - that the gift of prophecy was prominent after Christ ascended, and was instrumental in the Christians avoiding the abomination that made desolate (spoken in Daniel 9 and by Jesus as yet future). Furthermore it was instrumental in the Reformation work, and needed with the beginning of the Remnant's message.

My point was directly to the statement that if your assertion was indeed correct, it logically follows that there need not to have been any prophets in the NT, that the Reformers were unnecessary, and likewise Ellen White.

Correct, or not?

As to the "when", it is quite well known you have a different understanding as to the timing of the giving of the Holy Spirit than most on this forum; you have discussed and debated this on other threads. Please rehash and resurrect those threads if you wish to continue that discussion.

Contrary to your protestation, you are indeed avoiding the point, because I am not arguing to the fact as to whether the Holy Spirit was or wasn't given to the church, nor to the point whether one time or the other makes any real difference to the placement of the spiritual gifts within the church. It is understood as a fact the Holy Spirit and the gifts are given to the church. Your suddenly calling question to the "when" is but a red herring to divert the discussion.