The Beast of Revelation 13

[John317]

... But Rome is not included in the beast of Rev.13 as far as I can see. The text mentions the lion, the bear and the leopard. It does not mention Rome. Check out Daniel 7 again and you will find that the lion, bear and leopard are given an extension of life, but that the beast that was Rome was thrown into the burning all consuming fire of God's judgment and will never be seen or heard from again.

Daniel 7: 11 is not describing the events in their consecutive order but it's showing the prophet what will eventually happen to the pompous beast. The Bible shows that it will be destroyed at the second coming of Christ.

The fourth beast is Rome. Remember that Rome has both pagan and papal forms.

[Musicman1228]

Yes, the fourth beast of Daniel 7 is Rome. I see it as a mistake to believe that it will be destroyed at the end of time. Rome is not mentioned as being given an extension of life as were the other three because it had already been destroyed forever. This occurred before 400 C.E. a little after Emperor Constantine died. I'll have to look up the date and give it to you later.

Also, it you look carefully and see what happened to the horn with eyes and a mouth speaking against the Most High you will discover that it's authority to rule, it's dominion, would be taken away and destroyed forever. Dan.7:26. So what we must determine is WHEN this will or did occur. Obviously you along with most of the SDA church and believe this will happen at the end of time. If it happens earlier than that then the RCC won't play any role as an evil religion and that would be a tragedy for those that make a living bashing Catholics as being part of this beast.

For me the key is the word 'dominion'. This word indicates authority over peoples and territories. What territory does the Catholic church have authority over today? Only one square mile in Rome, Vatican City.

The Pope did, at one time, control a goodly portion of territory in Italy and also some land just across the northern boarder. This territory was called the Papal States, over which the Pope ruled with an iron hand (he held total control). In 1869-70 the Italian government annexed these Papal States by edict and directly against the will of the Papacy. In exchange for this land the Italian government gave the RCC that one square mile in downtown Rome forever, and even said that the Italian government would perpetually pay for the upkeep of the property as a concession to try to placate the Pope. This didn't work. The Papacy has never acknowledged this transaction as valid, and to this day has forbidden good Catholics from voting in elections or holding office in the Italian government.

This is when (in my opinion) that God took away the dominion of the Papacy and destroyed it (dominion) forever. God didn't destroy the Catholic church or the Papacy, just the authority to rule over people and territory. The Catholic church still exists today, but without that 'dominion'. There have been several attempts since then when either the Italian government (under Il Duce) or the Papacy have tried to exercise authority, and each time the attempt has met with failure.

It is for this reason that the Beast of Rev. 13 has the characteristics of the lion, bear and leopard, but NOT of the Great and Terrible Beast or of the 'little horn'. Their power and dominion have been thrown into the blazing fire of the second death and are destroyed forever.

[Lutz13]

For me the key is the word 'dominion'. This word indicates authority over peoples and territories. What territory does the Catholic church have authority over today? Only one square mile in Rome, Vatican City.

And yet everyone bows down to him... Have you not seen that France and Germany are trying to restore the power that the Pope once had. Trying to make Catholicism the religion of the EU.

[Guest]

Good point Lutz, not only that but it's dominion is way farther reaching than what MM understands obviously. Where were the flames that it is supposed to be destroyed with MM?

[teresaq]

Daniel 7: 11 is not describing the events in their consecutive order ...

[wayfinder]

The problem I see here is one of perception. It is perceived that the RCC and Roman Empire are represented by the same beast, they are not. The RCC is but one of the horns upon the beast that represents Rome. The eight remaining horns on the fourth beast were not destroyed with the beast. In the prophecy it is revealed that it was the body of the beast that was slain, destroyed and given to the blazing fire, not the horns (eight kingdoms). This fire is not "literal" because the beast is not literal. The beast is a symbol that represents a literal entity. The fire, into which the fourth beast is thrown, would then be the lake of fire described in Revelation and is the place were the representative symbols of Revelation are cast (The beast and false prophet and ultimately the dragon).

The first three beasts have their dominion taken away, but their ideology continues until the end of time and appears in the first beast of Revelation 13.

[Aliensanctuary]

Today, I'm wondering if Daniel will be resurrected to explain his prophecies to those living in the Last Days.

[Guest]

The Bible dosn't speak of Daniel being resurrected for that, but it does speak of Elijah.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5

[skyblue888]

Today, I'm wondering if Daniel will be resurrected to explain his prophecies to those living in the Last Days.

No he will not. Daniel "standing in his lot" in these last days simply means that a people will understand the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation and will be so transformed by the Spirit through the merits of Christ that the earth will be lightened by the glory of an abiding Saviour. Re: Daniel 12:13. Old King James version

"The time has come for Daniel to stand in his lot. The time has come for the light given him to go to the world as never before. If those for whom the Lord has done so much will walk in the light, their knowledge of Christ and the prophecies relating to Him will be greatly increased as they near the close of this earth's history." MS, 176, 1899 or E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.184.

sky

[skyblue888]

The Bible dosn't speak of Daniel being resurrected for that, but it does speak of Elijah.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5

Richard, do you realize that Ellen White was the Elijah the individual that was to come? In the book Selected Messages, Vol.1, she made that very clear but in a very unassuming way.

sky

[wayfinder]

Mt 11:14

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.

Mt 17:10-12

And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

What is clear from these texts, spoken by the Son of God Himself, is that it is not the Elijah, but an Elijah. In other words, Elijah will not appear, but a person who like Elijah will come and prepare the way for the return of the King to His kingdom.

An interesting point about the names Elijah and Elisha. Elijah means God is judgment and Elisha means God is salvation. Elijah the Tishbite problaimed the coming judgment upon Israel and was followed by Elisha who proclaimed restoration/salvation. John the Baptist, in the spirit and power of Elijah, proclaimed the coming judgement.

Mt 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the Baptist was followed by Ya'shua=God is salvation.

At the end of time an Elijah will appear to proclaim the soon coming judgment and will be followed by the appearing of the King of the kingdom of God, Elisha=God is salvation.

[skyblue888]

The Elijah the individual has already come and as Israel of old did not recognize that it was John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah, no more have we recognized that Ellen White came in the spirit and power of Elijah except with much more light to prepare a people to stand in the day of the Lord.

"The Jews tried to stop the proclamation of the message that had been predicted in the Word of God; but prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says, 'Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.' Mal.4:5. Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, 'You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.'

Now notice how in the next sentence Mrs. White implies that this is exactly what was done to her:

"There are many who cannot distinguish the work of God from that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth." 1 S.M.412.

This is a crystal clear indication that she was that "somebody" who was to come and her ministry was no more appreciated by the religious authorities of our day than was the ministry of John the Baptist in Christ's day.

sky

[wayfinder]

I am certain that the Elijah type person who appears at the end of the age is alive when the prophicied events occur.

Matthew 24:45-47 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

My understanding is that this verse is speaking of the person who is the Elijah who is to come.

[Guest]

There is nothing in or around that text that would recommend that understanding.

[wayfinder]

Re 9:11

They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Is this close enough? There are two words separating angel and abyss and those two words are "of the".

Rev. 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

The star is called him so it is not a literal celestial body but a symbol. A star has been used to symbolizes angels and so the cast down star/angel is none other than the devil who is the ruler of the abyss.

Re 1:20

"As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

[Guest]

wayfinder, did you mean to post that on the other thread? We were talking about Elijah here.

[skyblue888]

You see Richard, some would have us ignore the Testimonies of God's Spirit and in their place they would have us accept the interpretations of uninspired men, mere distractions in an attept to steer us away from what has already been revealed.

sky

[wayfinder]

Richard yes I did, sorry. I was talking about Elijah on this thread and obviously inadvertantly swiched info.

[Guest]

The Elijah the individual has already come and as Israel of old did not recognize that it was John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah, no more have we recognized that Ellen White came in the spirit and power of Elijah except with much more light to prepare a people to stand in the day of the Lord.

"The Jews tried to stop the proclamation of the message that had been predicted in the Word of God; but prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says, 'Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.' Mal.4:5. Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, 'You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message.'

Now notice how in the next sentence Mrs. White implies that this is exactly what was done to her:

"There are many who cannot distinguish the work of God from that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth." 1 S.M.412.

This is a crystal clear indication that she was that "somebody" who was to come and her ministry was no more appreciated by the religious authorities of our day than was the ministry of John the Baptist in Christ's day.

sky

Big Amen!!

[teresaq]

Today, I'm wondering if Daniel will be resurrected to explain his prophecies to those living in the Last Days.

if he "is", then we have a pretty good idea its not him. :)

[teresaq]

... If it happens earlier than that then the RCC won't play any role as an evil religion and that would be a tragedy for those that make a living bashing Catholics as being part of this beast....

we are told that it is protestantism that we have to watch out for now. that and spiritualism. they have taken over and are uniting with the papacy.

[Guest]

That's right

[Ted Oplinger]

The Bible dosn't speak of Daniel being resurrected for that, but it does speak of Elijah.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5

The thing is, Elijah won't require resurrection. He was translated straight to heaven and never tasted death - just like Enoch.

John the Baptist's message bore the imprint Elijah's ministry - the spirit of his ministry, if I might say that. This is why Christ declared that Elijah had already come - and His disciples understood His reference to mean John the Baptist.

The Advent movement of 1840-1844 knew the message they were giving had the same imprint - the same spirit - as Elijah's ministry, and called it the Elijah message for their day.

The last call to go out will also bear this same imprint, this same spirit, so that again, the Bible will declare Elijah coming before the great and dreadful Day of the Lord, as the context of Malachi 4:1-6 carries a theme as identifiable with Christ's Second Coming as with His First.

[Guest]

Yes I know he never died. Are you saying there will be another, after Ellen White?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

... If it happens earlier than that then the RCC won't play any role as an evil religion and that would be a tragedy for those that make a living bashing Catholics as being part of this beast....

we are told that it is protestantism that we have to watch out for now. that and spiritualism. they have taken over and are uniting with the papacy.

Very true.

sky