The Beast of Revelation 13

[Lutz13]

It doesn't matter what you believe about Jesus Christ as your personal savior, if you don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven you are not saved.

[Guest]

When this happens you learn to turn faith into trust, and when you finally learn to trust Jesus Christ completely you arrive at the truth. When you have found the truth you have then and only then entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

1- Faith is trust. How many times does John317 have to take the greek and brake it down for you? It dosn't seem to do any good. After you're shown something, you go right back to saying the same things.

2- How can the SDA church be the Kingdom of Heaven, since almost everything we believe is wrong? (according to you)

Seems to me, you three guys are the only ones who know anything about truth.

[Musicman1228]

Faith IS NOT trust, in spite of what John317 and you say. Look up the definition of faith as given by Paul and you will see that it in no way resembles the definition of trust. Trust is solid, faith is etherial. Trust is built on facts, faith is built on feelings. So I keep going BACK to my definition because it is the the only one that I adhere too, that makes sense to me. You believe what you will; you will do that in spite of any facts to the contrary that I or anyone else present.

As to the SDA church being the Kingdom of Heaven I will AGAIN call your attention to Matt.25:1-13. The description Jesus give here is specific to the Kingdom of Heaven and applies to only one body of believers, because they are the only ones that fulfill all aspects of the description. Now you will, of course, say that this parable is only a story and has nothing to do with reality, and you have every right to believe that, I will not try to stop you. On the other hand I believe that this passage is a prophecy as well as a parable and the Jesus meant exactly what He said concerning the Kingdom of Heaven. IF that is the case then the only group of people that fits the description is the SDA church.

I also see the Letters to the Seven Churches in Rev. 2 and 3 as applying only to the Kingdom of Heaven at the end of time, specifically meaning the the SDA church. You will notice that 5 of the 7 contain admonitions against wrong thinking and doing, and these also apply only to the SDA church. I believe that almost everything the SDA church is doing and stands for today IS wrong not because I said so, but because Jesus Christ said so. I only follow the will of my Master, Jesus Christ, so if you have any accusations to make don't take them up with me, take them directly to Jesus Christ and complain to Him; He is much better able to deal with them than am I.

[The following if for educational purposes only. Please do not think that I would ever mean to say this kind of thing in real life because I am not that kind of person. I debated with myself long and hard about using this, because I don't want to give the impression that I am in any way affected by insults, I am not. On the other hand, Richard, you fed me such a wonderful straight line that I just could not pass up the opportunity.]

Your final sentence shows more than a little snippyness.

Come now, Richard, if you want to insult me at least do it with some style and panache, not with blatant irony. Your insults would work much better had I insisted that I actually had all the truth, but since I have never done that (having clearly stated that I was speaking my opinions) it fell kind of flat. Give it another try, you'll do better next time.

[Guest]

Snippyness aye, I've never been accused of snippyness before. I wasn't trying to be snippy, nor was I trying to insult you. I was trying to get you to see something.

[John317]

Faith IS NOT trust, in spite of what John317 and you say. Look up the definition of faith as given by Paul and you will see that it in no way resembles the definition of trust. Trust is solid, faith is etherial. Trust is built on facts, faith is built on feelings.

Could you please give examples of the Bible's use of "faith" where "faith is built on feelings" and is different from "trust"?

"Faith" and "trust" are synonyms both in Bible and in the English dictionary.

When Jesus told the woman with the hemorrhage that her "faith" cured her, it could be translated "trust," "belief," "confidence," or "reliance." (Matt. 9: 22)

Look at 9: 28, 29. There Jesus asks the two blind men if they "believed" that He could make them see again. They said they did believe Him. Jesus then touched their eyes and said, "In accordance with your FAITH it will be done to you." It could be translated as "in accordance with your belief, it will be done to you."

Also closely compare the use of faith and belief in Romans 4: 18 to 5: 2 and in John 4: 39-54.

The Bible does distinguish between a merely intellectual belief and true, saving faith. See James 2: 19, 20.

[Musicman1228]

That is correct, John, it 'could have' been translated trust, but it wasn't. I agree that the hemorrhaging woman DID have trust in Jesus, my question is why? If she had never seen Him perform a healing miracle she would not have had any reason to trust that He could do what she KNEW He could do. So if she had touched His garment's hem under those conditions would she have been healed? I personally don't believe so. She had seen with her own eyes Jesus heal others, that is why she took the risk to get near enough to Him to touch Him. She did not believe Jesus could heal her, she did not hope that Jesus could heal her, she did not wish that Jesus would heal her, she KNEW beyond doubt that Jesus could heal her and she took direct action which expressed that knowledge. She reached out to Jesus, HE DID NOT REACH OUT TO HER. The lesson here is that Jesus does not heal or save anyone that does not reach out to Him first, and by their actions (deeds) show Him that they trust Him to do what He said He would do. "I will be your God, IF you will be my people".

That is not an expression of faith in my book, it is an expression of the desire of God to have people demonstrate that they want Him to be their God. This IS NOT done through the faith of just saying that you love Him and when you do He will save you by grace in spite of your sins. He MUST have people whom He can trust to do what they say they will do, and be whom He says they must be. They must be members of His Kingdom, and to demonstrate this they must be completely obedient to His will, and His will is the Covenant of the Kingdom. The commitment to this is individual, the salvation is corporate through membership in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I do not understand why people think that God will accept them into His righteous Kingdom as bondservants with the eventual outcome of them becoming members of His royal family JUST BECAUSE THEY SAY THEY LOVE HIM. Do you really think God is that gullible? He must have people willing to PROVE to Him that they love Him by keeping His commandments; and that is the test of love with shows that we trust Him and that He can trust us.

God cannot afford to have faith in us where sin is concerned because He knows that we have a propensity to sin. God must have a tangible demonstration of obedience that is based in righteousness in order to be able to trust us to be and to do what He requires.

[Guest]

Let I get this straight. First you become righteous, then God accepts and trusts you. Right?

[Musicman1228]

You first show the desire to become righteous by entering the process of sanctification. God accepts you where you are but trust is a function of growth through the sanctification process. It is only by His Spirit that anyone can accomplish and complete the process of sanctification, that is replacing lies with truth. This does not happen overnight, it does not happen all at once. You don't develop trust in God overnight, why should we expect God will develop trust in us just because we make a declaration of intent.

The end result of the process of sanctification is righteousness. Grace enters the picture when you die before completing the process; God looks at your progress toward righteousness and finishes the process for you by resurrecting you to eternal life. Grace is an extension of the Sanctification process whereby God acknowledges that you would have become righteous if you had lived long enough to complete the process.

There will be many saved into the Kingdom of God that will be resurrected to eternal life that didn't know Him because they lived up to the light that they had. In this God recognizes the value of self honesty. There will be many lost to the Kingdom because they were not honest enough with themselves to recognize that they needed something more in their lives than merely acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Even Satan does that and he is lost forever.

[Guest]

That is correct, John, it 'could have' been translated trust, but it wasn't. I agree that the hemorrhaging woman DID have trust in Jesus, my question is why? If she had never seen Him perform a healing miracle she would not have had any reason to trust that He could do what she KNEW He could do. So if she had touched His garment's hem under those conditions would she have been healed? I personally don't believe so. She had seen with her own eyes Jesus heal others, that is why she took the risk to get near enough to Him to touch Him. She did not believe Jesus could heal her, she did not hope that Jesus could heal her, she did not wish that Jesus would heal her, she KNEW beyond doubt that Jesus could heal her and she took direct action which expressed that knowledge. She reached out to Jesus, HE DID NOT REACH OUT TO HER. The lesson here is that Jesus does not heal or save anyone that does not reach out to Him first, and by their actions (deeds) show Him that they trust Him to do what He said He would do. "I will be your God, IF you will be my people".

WRONG. She had never seen him do anything. She had only heard about Jesus, so she didn't know anything, she only had faith.

[John317]

That is correct, John, it 'could have' been translated trust, but it wasn't.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4102 Browse Lexicon

Pistis

Definition

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

relating to God

the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

relating to Christ

a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

the religious beliefs of Christians

belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

[wayfinder]

In addition to this. It is at this moment in time the sin/sanctification/righteousness issue, concerns only the kingdom of heaven, this is demonstrated by Israel in ages past. God never required the nations to become righteous at the same time or before His kingdom (Israel). The command to become God's righteous nation was given to Israel and to any person or nation who wanted to become a part of God's people. If Israel had accomplished righteousness then the world would have been restored to righteousness long ago. Today God's plan is the same as it was in the very begining, call a kingdom out of the world, make a covenant with the people and teach them righteousness and if they obey the teaching they will be righteous. When God's kingdom has become perfect in righteousness they are sealed. The next step in the process is to teach the nations about the true God, this is the gospel of the kingdom. It is understood that the sanctification process is the process by which sin is revealed to the person and they then have a choice to confess the sin and have it removed from them or deny that it is a sin and not confess. Those who die before reaching perfect righteousness are not held accountable for the sin they had no knowledge of and are therefore not guilty of. At the end of time all sin will be made known to all the kingdom of heaven, through the work of the 144,000, these have completed the sanctification process and have no lie in their mouth, they are blameless (Revelation 14:5).

[Guest]

Wayfinder, How can we be the KOH if everything we believe is wrong?

[Musicman1228]

Wayfinder, How can we be the KOH if everything we believe is wrong?

Richard, I explained this to you once before and I will try again.

The Kingdom of Heaven must BECOME righteous, it is not righteous when it is established, just as Wayfinder explained. When Israel was taken out of Egypt they were not righteous. When God made them His Kingdom at Sinai they were not righteous. What God asked them to do was BECOME righteous by doing something that was not difficult, by keeping His Covenant.

God would not give them (or us) anything to do that was impossible to do. Israel understood this, which is why they said, "All that the Lord commands we will do". God was going to teach them about Himself and in the process they would have learned how to keep His Covenant. God made it clear to them that this was voluntary, but that the entire people, the children of Israel, must be together in the effort. If there was anyone that did not want to do what God said then they could leave. But if they said they would obey and stayed in the Kingdom they would have to voluntarily keep the Covenant. If after making this commitment they did not keep the Covenant then they were to be taken outside the camp and killed.

Commitment is important to God, just as it is important to marriage. This is why the Covenant is based on the marriage. Israel was not righteous when they were at Sinai, they were to become righteous. God was going to give them sufficient time to achieve this righteousness and then He would take them into the Promised Land.

Today's Kingdom of Heaven is in the same situation. They were called out of the world in 1843 C.E. and they like Israel before them were to become righteous. Along the way to that goal they were waylaid by the Evil One who convinced them that they did not need to become righteous in order to fulfill God's will for them. He convinced them not to listen to the true Holy Spirit through their own study but to a spirit masquerading as the Spirit of Prophecy who would take over that task so they would not have to work so hard. So instead of understanding the truth about what Jesus Christ had set them up to do and taking that gospel of the Kingdom to the World they listened to the voice of the Evil One that told them to become as other denominations believing that salvation is an individual thing and not something for the Kingdom of Heaven to worry about, and they ALL went to sleep.

Today the Kingdom of Heaven is sound asleep, drunk on the wine of lies fed to them by a spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit. You can see this clearly in Matt. 25:1-13, and Rev. 2 and 3 where Jesus admonishes them to wake up and do what He originally called them to do.

So yes, right now most everything that the Kingdom of Heaven believes is wrong, but just as with ancient Israel as God took them out of Egypt the Kingdom of Heaven does not have to remain in error. God wants us to know the truth, but if we believe that we already have the truth then God cannot teach them anything, and they will remain ignorant of the truth until the door of the marriage feast is shut permanently in their faces before the start of the Great Tribulation.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Wayfinder, How can we be the KOH if everything we believe is wrong?

Richard, I explained this to you once before and I will try again.

The Kingdom of Heaven must BECOME righteous, it is not righteous when it is established, just as Wayfinder explained. When Israel was taken out of Egypt they were not righteous. When God made them His Kingdom at Sinai they were not righteous. What God asked them to do was BECOME righteous by doing something that was not difficult, by keeping His Covenant.

God would not give them (or us) anything to do that was impossible to do. Israel understood this, which is why they said, "All that the Lord commands we will do". God was going to teach them about Himself and in the process they would have learned how to keep His Covenant. God made it clear to them that this was voluntary, but that the entire people, the children of Israel, must be together in the effort. If there was anyone that did not want to do what God said then they could leave. But if they said they would obey and stayed in the Kingdom they would have to voluntarily keep the Covenant. If after making this commitment they did not keep the Covenant then they were to be taken outside the camp and killed.

Commitment is important to God, just as it is important to marriage. This is why the Covenant is based on the marriage. Israel was not righteous when they were at Sinai, they were to become righteous. God was going to give the sufficient time to achieve this righteousness and then He would take them into the Promised Land.

Today's Kingdom of Heaven is in the same situation. They were called out of the world in 1843 C.E. and they like Israel before them were to become righteous. Along the way to that goal they were waylaid by the Evil One who convinced them that they did not need to become righteous in order to fulfill God's will for them. So instead of understanding the truth about what Jesus Christ had set them up to do and taking that gospel of the Kingdom to the World they listened to the voice of the Evil One that told them to become as other denominations believing that salvation is an individual thing and not something for the Kingdom of Heaven to worry about, and they ALL went to sleep.

Today the Kingdom of Heaven is sound asleep, drunk on the wine of lies fed to them by a spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit. You can see this clearly in Matt. 25:1-13, and Rev. 2 and 3 where Jesus admonishes them to wake up and do what He originally called them to do.

So yes, right now most everything that the Kingdom of Heaven believes is wrong, but just as with ancient Israel as God took them out of Egypt the Kingdom of Heaven does not have to remain in error. God wants us to know the truth, but if we believe that we already have the truth God (through His bondservant) the God cannot teach them anything, and they will remain ignorant of the truth until the door of the marriage feast is shut permanently in their faces.

Ahhh I get it! So me and you do the same exact sin. Me and you say the same exact prayer. Me and you go about our lives in the same exact way. It is oh so clear to me now.

[Lutz13]

Or perhaps God will put me through different experiences to cleanse me of my sins. That is called a "personal relationship" I speak with God much different than you speak to God. Is that really that hard to understand?

[Guest]

MM, I know your answer, I was asking wayfinder.

[Musicman1228]

I know Wayfinder will answer you in time. I'm pretty sure you won't like his answer any more than you like mine, nor will you actually listen to his answer any more than you listen to mine.

[wayfinder]

The kingdom of heaven is a group of people who willingly agree to keep the covenant of the kingdom; this covenant is the Ten Commandments. There are two cleansings, the water cleansing (baptism) and the fire cleansing (sanctification). After the water cleansing comes the covenant and after the covenant comes the process of confessing lies (sin) and accepting truth. The end of this process is perfect unity with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) we become one with God.

In the prophecy of the ten bridesmaids, all ten were in the kingdom, all ten had been baptized and all ten kept the Ten Commandments, but only five had the oil of the Holy Spirit to complete the sanctification process. All ten were in the kingdom but only five were allowed into the wedding feast.

I have tried not to say I am right and you are wrong and if I have I apologize. I have a different understanding than most Adventists and I show why and how I have come to my understanding. I am neither your judge nor anyone elses judge, I am accountable to myself and responsible for everyone else in the kingdom. If I am right and don't say or share my understanding, God will hold me responsible, if I fail to put forth any effort to test everything to discover the truth, God will hold me accountable for myself.

About twelve years ago, I was sitting in church and the pastors said to the congregation, close your eyes and imagine yourself walking into a room and seeing Jesus there, I don't know why I did, but I closed my eyes. I saw a door in front of me and walked through it. I entered a very bright room with brilliant white walls. I looked across the room and saw three beings in white robes. As I entered the room I stopped and one of the beings looked at me. The next thing I knew He came across the room without touching the floor and threw His arms around me and said thank-you, thank-you, thank-you! My eyes opened wide and I was so sorry I confessed to God that I didn't know what happened; I would never think that ever. Then I realized it wasn't me, it was God.

[Guest]

So then God was thanking you?

[wayfinder]

RH, I was only sharing an experience I had in church, for what its worth. I know what it meant to me. At the time I had only started to submerse myself in Bible study and I was beginning to understand things differently. What happened was not my imagination, I would never knowingly imagine Jesus coming to me, I always went to Him, whenever I thought about it, humbly with eyes down and in total submission. Was it a vision, yes. What does it mean, it means everything to me. I treasure that memory more than words can express.

I guess it was more like fifteen years ago.

[Lutz13]

RH, I was only sharing an experience I had in church, for what its worth. I know what it meant to me. At the time I had only started to submerse myself in Bible study and I was beginning to understand things differently. What happened was not my imagination, I would never knowingly imagine Jesus coming to me, I always went to Him, whenever I thought about it, humbly with eyes down and in total submission. Was it a vision, yes. What does it mean, it means everything to me. I treasure that memory more than words can express.

I guess it was more like fifteen years ago.

That was a personal experience with God wouldn't you say?

[Musicman1228]

There is a big difference between having personal experiences with God and saying that you are saved by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Salvation comes from being in the Kingdom of Heaven, that is corporate. Getting into the Kingdom of Heaven means learning the truth from Jesus Christ, and that is personal.

[Guest]

Salvation doesn't come from "being in" anything, other than the grace of God. You can believe a very basic truth and nothing else, and be saved. This one text is enough truth to save a man. John 3:16

[Musicman1228]

Richard, I must say I am truly stunned. Have you not read the rest of John 3 or are you going to continue to insist that all there is to salvation is the 16th verse? Have you not paid any attention to the other things that Jesus Christ said concerning salvation? Because if you base your entire salvation theology on this one verse and dismiss the rest of what Jesus said about truth and sanctification you will indeed be one of those who in the end will curse God for not giving them salvation the way YOU/THEY have decided it should be. The reason there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when people that believe as do you are cast into outer darkness is that they will not believe even then that they are lost. They will be telling God 'look what we did for you, we cast out demons, we healed the sick, we believed in grace and salvation for all, and now you do this to us. It's not fair and you're not fair. You must let us into the marriage feast because we did everything correctly according to our understanding'. I am sure you remember what Jesus will say to those people; "Go away, I never knew you." The reason He never knew them is that they never really knew Him, and His requirements for eternal life.

Please don't let this happen to you.

[Guest]

I'm saying if that's all a person knew, that would be enough. Look at the theif on the cross. OH that's right, you don't believe that part of the Bible.