The Beast of Revelation 13

[Aliensanctuary]

Jesus did teach us everything we need to know about the Kingdom of God. It may not matter so much whether we believe the prophecies in Dan and Rev were fulfilled in the past or will be fulfilled in the future. What matters most, of course, is whether we are willing to obey our Master.

I'm inclined to believe that the prophecies of the Last Days in Dan and the rest of the OT, and the prophecies in Rev are all future. Because the Beasts arise from a sea of people, we might conclude that this is post-resurrection. Rulers long dead are now alive to revive their lost empires, only now, backed by Satanic forces, they have the power to conquer the whole world.

Maybe the Popes have a major role to play in the Last Days, the time period following the resurrection, maybe not. Maybe Babylon is a huge cargo ship, more like a city from space, shot down out of the sky just as it's leaving Earth, or maybe Babylon is more like the Ark of Noah, sent to Earth to rescue the wealth, wickedness, and the wealthy before the destruction of the planet.

The 4th Beast is not a power originating on Earth. Why would the Popes destroy the world, crushing everything so there's nothing left to rule? All of humanity will be powerless to resist a massive invasion of technologically superior extraterrestrial beings. The Earth will become the battleground between the two forces of Good and Evil, and the graveyard for one of them.

[John317]

EGW was not inspired by Satan. She was misled by him.

....

She received about 2,000 visions and dreams. Who do you believe was the source of them? Did Ellen White make them up? Did God give some and Satan others? Or do you account for her ministry and work in some other way?

Could you give an example of a way in which Satan misled her?

Quote:

We need to keep our eyes on Jesus, not EGW, not Paul but on the son

of God.

Both Paul and Ellen White would agree with this, but as Paul said, we should copy him as he copies Christ. There's no conflict between the Scriptures and the Son of God, nor between the genuine prophets of God and Jesus Christ. The writings of both Paul and Ellen White-- to say nothing of Hebrews, Luke, James, 1 and 2 Peter-- all help us to keep our eyes focussed on Jesus Christ.

Quote:

God gave his son a job to do. Did Jesus complete his testimony or did God have to send others to clean up after him. John 17

verse 4.

Jesus did not reveal all truth while He walked this earth. He Himself told His followers that there were many things He couldn't tell them because they weren't ready for them. Also, it makes good sense that Christ would inspire His followers to write Scripture for the church as the church grew and needed instruction.

John 17: 4 is referring to the work of showing and explaining God's character. See John 1: 18. He is not saying that there was nothing more to do or teach the people. After all, Jesus spoke those words before any books of the NT were even written, so He obviously was not suggesting that the church didn't need the books of the NT. If that's what Jesus meant, we could throw out the Gospels and the book of Revelation.

[jasd]

>>...kissing the popes hand and what not?<<

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Goes to etiquette, protocol, and all those practices that distinguish the civilized from the brute.

I understand that when a .org first purposes to do - it attempts to distinguish itself, to set itself apart, to define itself - that it might attract adherents; that said, it is hoped that as time passes, that .org matures and begins to lay aside the things it first accrued through innocence or through ignorance, the intemporate, the things that hint at a carapace of bigotry re the body of Jesus Christ.

Kinda Kafkaesque, yes? :-)

It may be that practiced rituals are not that far removed from OT practices.

>>It will be interesting to see how things play out.<<

Russia believes itself to be the new Rome. You might oughta wanna keep an eye out for a resurgent Russia..., maybe even a Tsarist Russia, a Caesar/Czar Russia tandem Russian née Greek Orthodoxy. That should make the news cycle of every network, major or minor, printed or broadcast, including alternate news distribution, yes?

[shadow]

Sorry, I really don't know how Satan mislead EGW. I would suspect he did it much like he misleads the rest of us however, taking a little truth and mixing it up.

Copy Paul. Why, when I can follow Jesus. That makes no sense to me. A copier following a copier....I don't get it.

Right. Jesus did not reveal all truth while He was on earth. John 16 12-15. He tells us very clearly that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. I will take His word for that. I am a student of the Holy Spirit not of Paul or anyone else.

Of course we need the books of the New Testament. Did you think I said we didn't. Sorry, my question mark does not seem to be working. Anyway, the work that Jesus finished was the work He came to earth to do, John 18 verse 37, here He tells us He was born to bear witness to the truth. So now I guess it is up to us to find out what that truth is and so that brings us back to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth.

May He guide us all.

[jasd]

Re correlating the book of Daniel with the book of Revelation:

Given the proscription by Gd in Daniel 12:4 and the immediacy of the prescription recorded by St John in Revelation 1:3 - to wit: "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,..."

...attempts to analogize the things 'hidden' within the book of Daniel and those of Revelation - must utilize - caution.

[jasd]

>>She received about 2,000 visions and dreams.<<

Without interjecting a query re the ratio or the relative value of visions v dreams - one wonders just who counted?

That said, "Wow!"

[Guest]

Sorry, I really don't know how Satan mislead EGW. I would suspect he did it much like he misleads the rest of us however, taking a little truth and mixing it up.

If Satan mislead her, then that means he was the one leading her and not God. I don't believe that.

[Musicman1228]

Shadow and Allensanctuary, I tend to agree with you that EGW was mislead by Satan and that the end-time prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are future. Those thoughts make more sense to me that trying to figure out what prophecies of the end of time are past and which ones are future.

John317, just because someone has over 2000 visions does not make those vision from God. Sheer numbers don't mean anything, what matters is who gave those visions and for what reason. If EGW was a true prophet of God then she would have made not one single error in how she defined end-time prophecy, and she has not just made one. Since God makes no mistakes in giving prophets valid information then at the very least the prophecies in which EGW was wrong could not have come from God.

I also agree with Shadow; why on earth would I need to copy Paul when I have the originator of truth to copy. Just the fact that Paul said that shows me that he was arrogant and slipped up at least this once in proclaiming that we should look to him as our example rather than Jesus.

[BobRyan]

Shadow and Allensanctuary, I tend to agree with you that EGW was mislead by Satan

I am continually amazed by some of the things I read here from time to time.

[John317]

John317, just because someone has over 2000 visions does not make those vision from God. Sheer numbers don't mean anything, what matters is who gave those visions and for what reason.

I didn't mean to give the impression that sheer numbers mean the visions were from God. Obviously Satan can also give people dreams and visions.

My question is do you believe that Satan inspired those visions? Or did she make them up? How do you account for them? How do you account for her ministry, her books, etc.?

Quote:

If EGW was a true prophet of God then she would have made not one single error in how she defined end-time prophecy, and she has not just made one. Since God makes no mistakes in giving prophets valid information then at the very least the prophecies in which EGW was wrong could not have come from God.

It's very possible that your understanding of what Ellen White wrote is incorrect. That is more likely, I believe, than that Ellen White was mistaken.

There are people who believe that the Bible contains errors which prove the prophets were not inspired of God. Personally I believe it's those people's interpretations that are in error, not the Bible itself.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Shadow and Allensanctuary, I tend to agree with you that EGW was mislead by Satan

I am continually amazed by some of the things I read here from time to time.

Confusion is prevelant at all times that truth is being spoken.

Amazing as it is, it is there.

:-)

[Musicman1228]

BobRyan,

It goes to approach. I am constrained by only one thing, the Words of Jesus Christ and God. For me EGW and Paul do not speak for either.

But I am not bias because that list also includes any human being or agency that claims or has the claim made about them that they speak in any way, shape or form for God. The first beast of Rev.13 has 7 heads which are authorities, that have taken on blasphemous names. This means that they are religions, not religious people. Paul is an individual that is credited with founding the Christian church; this would include the RCC. Out of the RCC came the reform churches; this includes all protestant denominations including the SDA church. This includes any religion or philosophy that does not acknowledge the supremacy of the God of Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ; such as Buddism, Shinto, Hindu, Wicka, Islam and countless others. The one thing that ALL of these religions have in common is that they are man made or man modified, and they are ALL based in faith.

Blaspheme is taking the perogatives of God, and all 7 heads do that as a function not of individual (Paul, EGW, Pope, etc.) but of the central practice of these religions and their ability to capture the hearts and minds of the people of the earth. It is their religious practices that are blasphemous.

[John317]

why on earth would I need to copy Paul when I have the originator of truth to copy. Just the fact that Paul said that shows me that he was arrogant and slipped up at least this once in proclaiming that we should look to him as our example rather than Jesus.

It's not out of arrogance that the apostle says, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." 1 Cor. 11: 1.

Christ and God are our ultimate examples and role models, but the Bible points us to many other role models, such as those named in Hebrews 11.

"Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ." " Phil. 3: 17, 18.

"In Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me." 1 Cor. 4: 15, 16.

[Kevin H]

EGW was not inspired by Satan. She was misled by him.

Her teachings on Education, health, the health system, correcting the understanding of the nature of hell fire, her Great Controversy" philosophy, guiding the church away from Dispensationalism and trying (although failing) to guide the church from Fundamentalism. To grow from a believer in the shut door to becoming a popular speaker in Sunday Keeping churches. If this is the results of being misled by Satan the world would be a much better place if Satan would mislead more.

This comment sounds like those who argue that what the Hebrews thought was God on Mt. Sinai was actually a volcano and the idea that the foundation of society came from misunderstanding a volcano, or even that the above fruit of Mrs. White's work was the results of being a mad hatter.

We dont' know how many visions she has had, there is a much lower number with 2000 being the high number, but how ever many or few she has done a fantastic ministry.

[skyblue888]

To grow from a believer in the shut door to becoming a popular speaker in Sunday Keeping churches...

What do you mean by "becoming a popular speaker in Sunday-keeping churches?"

sky

[Kevin H]

As a young woman Mrs. White believed in a doctrine called the shut door, that probation had closed on all but Millerites, and these believers in the shut door tended to avoided non-Millerites.

But later Adventists became close to Seventh-day Baptists and had close fellowship and friendship. When Mrs. White went to Europe she was greeted by a Seventh-day Baptist when she was in England and he took her to the British museum. By the end of her life she wrote Steps to Christ for the general Christian community, publishing it not in our church's press but in a popular general Christian press, and Mrs. White began to be invited by Sunday Keeping churches to preach in them on Sunday morning and she accepted, the theam of her sermons was not the mark of the beast etc. but she preached on the love of Jesus for them and how to live healthier lives. The elderly Mrs. White would preach Sabbath in Seventh-day Adventist churches, and Sundays in non-Adventist churches.

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Shadow and Allensanctuary, I tend to agree with you that EGW was mislead by Satan

I am continually amazed by some of the things I read here from time to time.

I'm not surprised. This is an open forum. Posters show up here from next door to Timbuktu and all points in between. Many of them have anti andventist, and antichrist agendas.

[Lutz13]

The elderly Mrs. White would preach Sabbath in Seventh-day Adventist churches, and Sundays in non-Adventist churches.

I would hope that you wouldn't see a problem with that. What I have come to realize is that God saves those who accept Him on an individual basis. He leads them down roads and paths and revealing a bit of truth at a time. Only what that individual would be able to handle and only God can know. So those that she preached to on a Sunday morning probably were not ready for a Sabbath truth sermon.

We are all brothers and sisters. God sent me to hang out with some baptist for a couple of hours. Which I had no plans of ever doing but He decided that I needed to see that He has people everywhere. I was amazed at how loving they were. It made me sad that we as Christians have denominations that separate us.

So when God knows His child can handle it, He will lay out a path that leads them to more truth.

[Kevin H]

Exactly Lutz13, I love Mrs. White!

However, denominations actually have points where they serve both God and Satan. They serve God in being able to help people at similar stages of growth meet together and feel connected. They serve Satan by giving people an exuxe to not to continue to grow and to look down on other donominaitons and as an excuse to have contempt on God's world.

I find it amazing how critics attack her ministry, yet in her life time other Christians respected her and her not limiting herself to just Adventism. I get the impression the the problems came from the re-inventing of Ellen White after the 1923 General Conference and re-reading her writings with fundamentalist filters in front of our eyes.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

The elderly Mrs. White would preach Sabbath in Seventh-day Adventist churches, and Sundays in non-Adventist churches.

I would hope that you wouldn't see a problem with that. What I have come to realize is that God saves those who accept Him on an individual basis. He leads them down roads and paths and revealing a bit of truth at a time. Only what that individual would be able to handle and only God can know. So those that she preached to on a Sunday morning probably were not ready for a Sabbath truth sermon.

We are all brothers and sisters. God sent me to hang out with some baptist for a couple of hours. Which I had no plans of ever doing but He decided that I needed to see that He has people everywhere. I was amazed at how loving they were. It made me sad that we as Christians have denominations that separate us.

So when God knows His child can handle it, He will lay out a path that leads them to more truth.

I have highlighted two important sentences in the comments of Lutz13. Where did the idea come from that we must have an individual savior? And why are there so many Christian denominations? Believe it or not the two go hand in hand.

The idea of the individual savior DID NOT come from the teachings of Jesus Christ. Here are some examples of what Jesus taught:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5.

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:7-9.

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. John 10:16.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:36-37.

And now Paul:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Rom.10:12-13.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:6-9.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1Cor.19:22.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Rom.2:9-10.

Denominations come from the idea that there is salvation through the law for the Jew, and salvation through grace by faith for the gentile. Everyone has their own idea as to how that should work. Jesus taught unity through the Holy Spirit and His words. Denominations are a construct of the Devil that says that it is OK to believe anything you want because God has saved all mankind through Jesus Christ.

Jesus said there is ONE kingdom that is base on truth that is singular and absolute; you cannot change it to fit your individual theology, you must believe the words of Jesus or you are not in the Kingdom of Heaven. Every denomination believes that they have all the truth. Only one Kingdom will have ALL the truth, and that is the Kingdom the King of which is Jesus Christ. If you accept the words and teachings of anyone other than Jesus Christ you cannot enter the Kingdom of God, no matter what denomination you belong to-including SDA.

[Lutz13]

I have highlighted two important sentences in the comments of Lutz13. Where did the idea come from that we must have an individual savior? And why are there so many Christian denominations? Believe it or not the two go hand in hand.

The idea of the individual savior DID NOT come from the teachings of Jesus Christ. Here are some examples of what Jesus taught:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5.

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:7-9.

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. John 10:16.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:36-37.

And now Paul:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Rom.10:12-13.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:6-9.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1Cor.19:22.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Rom.2:9-10.

Denominations come from the idea that there is salvation through the law for the Jew, and salvation through grace by faith for the gentile. Everyone has their own idea as to how that should work. Jesus taught unity through the Holy Spirit and His words. Denominations are a construct of the Devil that says that it is OK to believe anything you want because God has saved all mankind through Jesus Christ.

Jesus said there is ONE kingdom that is base on truth that is singular and absolute; you cannot change it to fit your individual theology, you must believe the words of Jesus or you are not in the Kingdom of Heaven. Every denomination believes that they have all the truth. Only one Kingdom will have ALL the truth, and that is the Kingdom the King of which is Jesus Christ. If you accept the words and teachings of anyone other than Jesus Christ you cannot enter the Kingdom of God, no matter what denomination you belong to-including SDA.

Let me put it in easy words for you. The way Jesus saves me, isn't going to be the same as you. I am walking a different path. The experiences that God puts me through, will not be the same as you go through. Each person has a different story.

If someone truly seeks our Lord, then He will when He knows they are ready, reveal important truths. If we were slammed all at once with truth, we would most likely reject it.

[Guest]

Where did the idea come from that we must have an individual savior? ...The idea of the individual savior DID NOT come from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Lutz13 Never used the phrase "individual savior" those are your words.

What he did say was this:

"What I have come to realize is that God saves those who accept Him on an individual basis".

And that is 100% correct. The only way we can be saved is on an individual basis. Same with the Jews, same with anybody. He leads us to the same truth, but in different ways.

[Musicman1228]

Just making a decision to accept Jesus as your personal savior is where most Christians leave their experience. They fail to take the next step in the process which is to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The only way to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is to become sanctified, the only way to become sanctified is to learn and accept the words of Jesus Christ as your source for truth. When this happens you learn to turn faith into trust, and when you finally learn to trust Jesus Christ completely you arrive at the truth. When you have found the truth you have then and only then entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

It doesn't matter what you believe about Jesus Christ as your personal savior, if you don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven you are not saved.

Jesus Christ only taught that you must be in the Kingdom of Heaven, He never taught anything about becoming the personal savior of anyone. If you believe that all you need is a personal savior to be saved you will find yourself in a world of hurt.

It is for this reason that I trust ONLY the words of Jesus Christ and their interpretation by the Holy Spirit.

[Musicman1228]

There will be millions of Christians during the Great Tribulation that will accept the Mark of the Beast because they believed that all they needed to do was except Christ as their personal savior.

[Guest]

Again, you are the only one using the term "personal savior" no one else has.