The Beast of Revelation 13

[wayfinder]

Lutz13: You are absolutely right about that being a personal experience with God and I treasure that more than I am able to put into words, yet I know that experience was a confirmation of what I would do, not what I had done.

All my life I have had a personal relationship with God. I have shared with God my joys and sorrows, my hopes and dreams, God has always been in my life, yet I know that alone will not bring me eternal life. I must become like Him, He must dwell in me and I in Him and to do that I must confess my sins and be sanctified by the truth until there is no lie in my mouth and I must obey Him.

God loves all of His creation, including Lucifer, but that love is not unto salvation. We must demonstrate by our actions that we love and live a life of righteousness.

Joh 3:36

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Daniel 12:3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

[Musicman1228]

Yes you are correct Richard, I don't believe the story of one of the criminals on the cross actually asked for forgiveness as is told by Luke. It is not in the other eyewitness gospel accounts wherein both criminals were cursing Christ. It does make a good story, though.

[Guest]

What if the vision was not from God but Satan. I would not ask this but you have had to throw out most of the New Testament and Ellen White in order to believe what you now believe.

[wayfinder]

Richard: At the time of the vision I believed that Paul and Ellen White were apostle and prophetess. Tell me what would Satan stand to gain by giving me this vision, I have managed to convince all of about twenty people over the last sixteen years. This is not the only time that I have had something happen I cannot give a logical reason for, I just don't make a big deal about it and I don't see any need to offer it as evidence that God is working with me in a special way, because there are so many out there saying that God is giving them special revelations and they are leading thousands down a path to evil and death. I shared these two experiences because they were special for me and helped me understand more clearly.

[Guest]

If you followed the way we are to test "new light", The fact that virtually no one else sees it as such should tell you something. The fact that it does not lets me know that you don't think the normal tests apply to you. Maybe that was another reason for you to conveniently get rid of EGW.

[wayfinder]

Richard, don't assume too much. Throughout His entire ministry, Jesus managed to convince about twenty people or less that He was the expected Messiah. Would you say the same thing to Him?

We are told that out of approximately fourteen million Seventh-day Adventists one hundred forty-four thousand are sealed first, does that number impress you?

I admit, I have seriously questioned my understanding. I have had doubts and have been discouraged, but just when I am about ready to give it all up, God shows me that I am doing His will. I could share with you all the times and all the ways that He has done this, but I doubt it would have the effect on you that it has had on me.

Mt 7:13,14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Guest]

Thousands were converted because of Jesus ministry. It is still going on today, so millions have come to Christ because of what he did here on earth. His servant Paul along with many others helped to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to a sin sick planet.

[wayfinder]

Thousands were converted because of Paul's ministry and yes it continues today, but I would argue that it is not the Son of God they are coming to. It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ that needs to be spread around the world, it is the gospel of the kingdom.

Who would you expect to be more successful, Jesus Christ or the evil one?

Mt 26:31

Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, `I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED .'

Please show me any evidence that there were more than fifty people who believed that Jesus was the Son of God and believed His testimony. It seems that every time the people wanted to make Him king He said something that made them want to kill him on the spot.

[Guest]

They believed it after he rose from the dead.

[wayfinder]

By "they" you mean the eleven and the women.

[Guest]

In Jerusalem were many who secretly believed Jesus of Nazareth to be the Messiah, and many who had been deceived by priests and rulers. To these the gospel must be proclaimed. They were to be called to repentance. The wonderful truth that through Christ alone could remission of sins be obtained, was to be made plain. And it was while all Jerusalem was stirred by the thrilling events of the past few weeks, that the preaching of the disciples would make the deepest impression. {AA 31.2}

[Guest]

Thus the disciples preached the resurrection of Christ. Many among those who listened were waiting for this testimony, and when they heard it they believed. It brought to their minds the words that Christ had spoken, and they took their stand in the ranks of those who accepted the gospel. The seed that the Saviour had sown sprang up and bore fruit. {AA 60.2}

[Guest]

As the disciples proclaimed the truths of the gospel in Jerusalem, God bore witness to their word, and a multitude believed. Many of these early believers were immediately cut off from family and friends by the zealous bigotry of the Jews, and it was necessary to provide them with food and shelter. {AA 70.1}

[Guest]

And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed because of his own word; John 4:39-41

[wayfinder]

Richard: It is true that there were many who believed because of the miracles and His ability to tell people things about themselves that only they would know. He raised Lazarus from the dead and many believed from this. I suppose if I could do the same things many would believe in me, but it is not me I want them to believe in. I did not make my self clear and I appologize, when I said that when Jesus went back to the Father, of those whom He had taught, we have scant record of their activities. The appearence of Paul who never knew Jesus when He was on earth, never heard Him teach, is really the only one, except for John and Peter, who we have today as one who claimed to teach in Jesus name. What happened to everyone else?

I could offer as evidence the fact that there are between one and two thousand people that listen to my Sabbath school internet broadcast, but I don't.

I know I have done honest research with an open mind. All the conclutions I have arrived at are my own and if I am right or wrong I will be deserving of whatever judgment God would give me.

[Musicman1228]

It is true that today a lot of people believe in the resurrected Jesus, and I know you are one of them, Richard. Yet during the time these events were taking place only a handful believed it, starting with Mary Magdala. She was an eyewitness to His resurrection, actually seeing Jesus and touching Him before He ascended to His Father (as the Wave Sheaf Offering). Then Jesus appeared to His 11 disciples and a few others in the upper room where they had supper (not Passover) on the Tuesday evening before the day of Passover upon which He was killed. Here, after His resurrection Jesus blessed His own disciples and gave them the Holy Spirit by breathing on them (John 20:19-23).

This is the same bunch of nutcases that even though they followed Him throughout His ministry they scattered liked scared rabbits when the going got rough in the garden of Gesthemine during His arrest. There was only a handful left over from the hundreds that followed Him earlier, but abandoned Him to face death alone. (In every generation Jesus always has a small group of nutcases that no one believes at the time.)

This small group of people were eyewitnesses to the risen Savior. They saw Him actually die on the cross. They saw Him taken down from the cross and they carried Him to the tomb. They mourned Him hiding in the upper room, fearful for their lives. It is by their testimony that you and I and all others who claim Jesus Christ is risen from the dead have acquired the knowledge and assurance of the resurrection.

You did not get this information from Paul, who was not there and who did not witness these events. You did not get this understanding from Luke who was not there and was not an eyewitness to any part of the life of Christ. You got your knowledge, your understanding that Jesus Christ is risen indeed from just a handful of eyewitnesses, the words of whom you accept because you trust that they have honestly related to you what they saw with their own eyes, and through their witness to others who also believed in what they saw and experienced.

This is the same bunch to whom Jesus said, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". John 14:26.

This also includes their witnessing of His death and resurrection. Without their eyewitness accounts you would have NOTHING upon which to hang your assurance of salvation. Yet it is these very same eyewitnesses and their testimony that you so heavily rely upon to confirm your belief that Jesus is alive and in Heaven (which is the basis for the most important and hell shattering, devil defeating truth that could possibly exist) that you enthusiastically place as secondary or even unimportant when compared with the words and teachings of Paul and EGW, when it comes to how salvation works.

When I and others point out to you the glaring differences between what these eyewitnesses say and what Paul says you refuse to listen or even consider that there may be some validity to these differences. You base your knowledge of the risen Lord on the very same people that you then say didn't know what they were talking about when it comes to how salvation works, even when Jesus said that THEY would remember everything He said to them.

Do you not see a dichotomy here? You cannot have it both ways; you cannot on one hand say that their testimony is valid in one instance (the resurrection) and then say that it is invalid in another (salvation). If you insist on believing in Paul's version of the gospel (that you are saved by grace through faith) then you cannot in honesty then say you believe that Jesus is actually risen from the dead. If you say the eyewitness accounts of Matthew, Peter and John are valid for the resurrection how can you then say they are invalid for how salvation really works?

You have accused me of cut and paste theology in proving my points vis-a-vis how salvation works, and yet you are now caught saying that it is acceptable to use eyewitness testimony in one case but not acceptable or necessary in another.

Are you not right now at a decision point? Do you accept the entire testimony of the eyewitnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ as valid, or do you throw their testimony away in favor of the dubious testimony of people who NEVER KNEW HIM face to face, and have no direct knowledge of His words and teachings? If their eyewitness testimony IS valid then are you not obligated to throw out the testimony of those the only claim of whom is that they saw Jesus in vision?

[Guest]

Why would I be obligated to throw out the testimony of someone who saw Him in a vision? That dosn't even make sense.

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. Num 12:6

Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. Dan 2:19

Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: Act 18:9

[wayfinder]

Jer 14:14

Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.

Eze 22:28

"Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' when the LORD has not spoken.

Mt 7:15

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mt 24:11

"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Re 2:2

`I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

It is certain, by evidence from the word of God, that there will be more than one who claim to be an apostle and they are not. Tell me, who might these false apostles be? The book of Revelation is for those who live at the end of time, the apostles lived in the first century. It stands to reason that the investigation which produces the evidence exposing these false apostles is an investigation by those living at the end of time of those apostles who lived in the first century.

[Guest]

If a vision is truly from God, you would be foolish to throw it out.

[wayfinder]

That is absolutly right and if it is not from God you would be foolish not to throw it out. That is why we must investigate everyone who claims to be receiving visions from God, if they teach something different than what God teaches then we know the vision is not from God. That is what God is saying in Revelation 2:2, we must investigate everyone who calls themself an apostle and see if what they are saying is in perfect harmony with the Law and the Prophets and the testimony of Jesus as recorded by His eyewitnesses.

[Musicman1228]

If a vision is from the false god you would be foolish to believe it. So how can you tell the difference? If the vision does not agree with the words of the Master, Jesus Christ, do you then through out Jesus Christ instead of the vision of a false apostle? Again, I point out that the reason you can know that Jesus was resurrected is through the direct testimony of those that you later through out in favor of someone who says that he had a vision from someone calling himself Jesus. Where is the corroborating evidence that this actually took place? The disciple Matthew, Peter and John corroborate the testimony of each other precisely when it comes to the resurrection of Jesus, which you believe. Why will you not take their word over the word of someone who by his own words preaches a gospel different from them? I just don't get the logic in that.

[Guest]

How do you know Daniel's visions were from God? Either you have faith in the Bible or you don't. And Paul did not preach a different gospel.

Once you start picking apart the Bible, and deciding what parts you want to believe and what parts you don't, you might as well throw the whole thing in the trash can, because you're on the wrong track.

[Musicman1228]

Again, you are participating in a logical fallacy. Who says that if you decide to use some things in the Bible and not others you MUST throw the whole document away? You? Who gave you that authority? You may need faith to believe the Bible as a whole, but I don't need faith to believe the God of the Old Testament, or the Son of God in the New Testament. I KNOW what they have said is true because I have developed the trust that it takes for me to make that my understanding.

And yes, Paul DID preach a different gospel, he said that himself. What, you don't believe what Paul said?

[Twilight]

Again, you are participating in a logical fallacy. Who says that if you decide to use some things in the Bible and not others you MUST throw the whole document away? You? Who gave you that authority? You may need faith to believe the Bible as a whole, but I don't need faith to believe the God of the Old Testament, or the Son of God in the New Testament. I KNOW what they have said is true because I have developed the trust that it takes for me to make that my understanding.

And yes, Paul DID preach a different gospel, he said that himself. What, you don't believe what Paul said?

Where did Paul say that "HE" taught another gospel, than that Jesus taught?

Mark

[Guest]

Please show where Paul said his gospel was different.