The Beast of Revelation 13

[Michaeneu]

In my answer to Q #1 the first part of that was hypothetical, as in a contract between two parties. When God issued His Covenant with His Kingdom it was an all or nothing Covenant.

Next, God's covenants are not issued on the basis that God will not fulfill His part of it. There is, however, the stipulations/conditions that the Kingdom must fulfill. If the people of the Kingdom do not fulfill their part of the Covenant then it is broken, regardless of the wishes of God to the contrary.

Michael, you speak of the Covenants of God being unconditional, and this is just not true. If they are unconditional then there is no longer the opportunity for them to exercise 'free will'. Remember, God issued the Covenant at Sinai to a specific people, and by adhering to this Covenant they would become His Kingdom. Think of it this way: the Kingdom of Heaven on earth is like a shell corporation-it exists irrespective of what is inside it. What God decides to put inside of it must perform according to the by-laws of the corporation. In this case the by-laws are the Covenant, the 10 Commandments.

The Covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven is based on the most sacred agreement between two parties known to man; the marriage covenant. Does 'marriage' exist even if you are not? Of course. It is a shell until two parties fill it. For one to be married there must be two parties that agree to the stipulations of the marriage contract. It is a permanent, binding contract that can be broken only in two cases; the death of one of the parties, or infidelity.

God cannot die. A nation cannot die (although through genocide it has been attempted) as long as there is one person of that nation left alive. So if the marriage contract/Covenant between God and a nation is to be broken it can only be broken through infidelity, where one or the other parties to the Covenant commit adultery with a party outside of that agreement. God cannot do this. Therefore, the only party that could potentially commit adultery/infidelity against the Covenant is the nation.

Back to the shell corporation: God put the nation that He brought out of Egypt into this corporate body called the 'Kingdom of Heaven' at Sinai by introducing them to the marriage Covenant, the 10 Commandments, and having them take the marriage vow to remain faithful to their husband (God) by being obedient to that marriage covenant. As a nation they agreed to abide by the marriage covenant, to not worship other gods, and to remain faithful to the true God of the Kingdom of Heaven (their husband). God then made them His wife, and promised to take care of them as long as they remained faithful to Him.

Three weeks after the marriage ceremony they were committing adultery with another god (golden calf) right in the bedroom of the their husband. God forgave them (after weeding out some bad apples), but from then on is was Israel worshiping other gods (committing adultery) and God forgiving them. Finally, God had had enough and He divorced them and sent them away into captivity into the land of the Babylon, where they remained for 70 years.

At the end of their exile due to divorce God invited them to come back and marry Him again. He gave them 70 weeks of years (490 years) in which to make the commitment to marry Him, and demonstrate that they would not commit adultery again. No matter how many times or ways in which God asked they refused to re-marry Him. Finally, during the final week of the 70 weeks given to them to make the decision to marry Him Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom Himself, came to show them what they must do to make themselves His bride again. Not only did they refuse the Bridegroom and reject His proposal, they put Him on a cross and declared for all the world to hear, "We have no husband (king) but Caesar."

This was the last straw. Israel had run out of time and God had run out of patience. So just as Jesus said He would do He took the opportunity for Israel to become His Kingdom away from them, and He eventually gave it to another people (Dan.2:44).

The thing to remember is that God divorced Israel (because of adultery) AND SHE NEVER REMARRIED HIM. God wanted the nation of Israel to be His Kingdom but they did not want to become His Kingdom, so they remained divorced from Him. They will never again be given the opportunity to become the Kingdom because they were given two chances and they refused both times to do the will of God.

So yes, Michael, I know that the Covenant that God tried to establish with literal Israel was conditional, because THEY refused to ratify the Covenant and remarry the Bridegroom when given their final opportunity. God NEVER goes against the wishes and will of anyone that directly opposes His will.

Your stating categorically that God's covenants are unconditional shows that it is you that does not understand the true dynamic of how God works. God is not a fool. It would be foolish of God to issue unconditional agreements to people with conditional hearts.

When Christ pronounced that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church—that did not preclude choice! The church is married to him and Christ’s pronouncement means that this marriage covenant is never broken; this marriage covenant is the New Covenant.

There is a visible and invisible church; the invisible church is the elect or chosen that the marriage, promises and prophecies are secured for by grace, but the visible church is also made up of those who are called but ultimately not chosen. The scriptures are replete with examples of when the difference between the visible and invisible becomes salient, but most of the time there is little separation between the two.

You Sir are kicking against the pricks because the covenant with the church and Christ is secure to an elect, which doesn’t preclude choice, but is fundamentally unconditional.

Moreover, you’ll have to make void the book of Jeremiah to uphold your untenable assertions.

“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.” Jer. 3:8

Yahweh divorces Israel in verse 8, but by verse 14 he is remarried to her.

“Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion…” Jer. 3:12-14

Yahweh is married to Israel again at the time the ingathering of the Gentiles is prophesied.

“Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing…. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited…. For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.” Isa. 54:1-7

You can refuse to grasp this all you want, MM, it’s your choice, but there is only one entity that was a wife of youth that was forsaken, refused and grieved in spirit and that is the same entity written about in Jeremiah above; out of the mouth of two is the truth confirmed. At the time the great ingathering of the Gentiles, Christ first advent, Ephraim, the northern tribes, are remarried to Yahweh. This is also confirmed in Matthew concerning the fulfilling of Rachael’s weeping.

“Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.” Matt. 2:17-18

The problem here that most don’t grasp is that Bethlehem was in Judah and Judah was not the child of Rachael; the children of Judah were the prodigy of Leah. The only way the text can be reconciled is by acknowledging that the prophecy was about Ephraim, which was Rachael’s grandson.

“Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not…. And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.” Jer. 31:15, 17-18

Truly, you’re kicking against the pricks, MM.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion…” Jer.3:14. (unknown version)

Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. Jer.3:14. (ESV)

Come back to me, my wayward sons," says the LORD, "for I am your true master. If you do, I will take one of you from each town and two of you from each family group, and I will bring you back to Zion. Jer.3:14. (NET)

The Hebrew word Ba'al (Strong's 1166) means 'Master', 'husband', or 'owner'.

You neglected to find the operative word in the text. It is not ba'al, but it is the phrase 'If you do'. If you do what? Return to your ba'al; master, husband, owner. This text is NOT saying that they are married, but that they could be IF Israel will return to the Lord.

Israel NEVER returned to the Lord after their captivity in Babylon.

[Michaeneu]

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion…” Jer.3:14. (unknown version)

Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. Jer.3:14. (ESV)

Come back to me, my wayward sons," says the LORD, "for I am your true master. If you do, I will take one of you from each town and two of you from each family group, and I will bring you back to Zion. Jer.3:14. (NET)

The Hebrew word Ba'al (Strong's 1166) means 'Master', 'husband', or 'owner'.

You neglected to find the operative word in the text. It is not ba'al, but it is the phrase 'If you do'. If you do what? Return to your ba'al; master, husband, owner. This text is NOT saying that they are married, but that they could be IF Israel will return to the Lord.

Israel NEVER returned to the Lord after their captivity in Babylon.

I didn’t neglect anything. It was you who failed to read and grasp the ramifications of the scriptures that I graciously provided for you.

Matthew 2:17-18 clearly reveals that the timing as to when Ephraim is called to return to the Lord coincides with the ingathering of the Gentiles. Timing is everything! Isaiah 54 and Jeremiah 31 all support the aforementioned, as well a host of other scripture. When the gospel went out to the world the scattered tribes of Ephraim were called to repent and return to Yahweh.

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” Heb. 12:22-24

As you stated, there is no longer an appointed place of worship and as the gospel went forth it also gathered the lost tribes of Ephraim—one from a city and two from a family, and brought them to Zion. Again we have continuity between the NT and the OT, while your paradigm continues to make void huge passages of Yahweh’s word; you make His word desultory. THT reconciles the scriptures and creates harmony between the NT and the OT, while yours is just a mass of confusion. Yours kicks against the pricks.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

Michael said, "Matthew 2:17-18 clearly reveals that the timing as to when Ephraim is called to return to the Lord coincides with the ingathering of the Gentiles."

Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:   (18) “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.” Matt.2:17-18.

Here is an example of a disciple making an inaccurate prophetic reference. Matthew is saying that the weeping in Ramah as described in Jeremiah is fulfilled in the weeping in Bethlehem after Herod killed all the boys 2 years and younger. This is simply not correct.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 31 is talking about a time when the northern kingdom (Israel) would come back from exile and God would reconstitute His Kingdom in Zion. Rachel is weeping for her children in exile, but in verse 16 God says to stop weeping and have hope for the future. This NEVER happened, will never happen, and certainly had not happened at the time of Jesus Christ on earth.

This prophecy has nothing to do with the weeping in Bethlehem at the time of Herod after the birth of Jesus.

There is no coinciding of timing with Ephraim and ingathering of Gentiles. Gentile are not even mentioned in the prophecy in Jer. 31.

The prophecy of Jer.31 is about Israel and Judah coming back from exile and returning to the Lord, becoming His bride again. Had this happened (on time) the Life Road prophecies concerning Israel would have come true, and Jesus would have set up His throne in Jerusalem.

We know that none of this ever happened, and because of Israel choosing the Death Road prophecies will never happen.

[Guest]

Here is an example of a disciple making an inaccurate prophetic reference. Matthew is saying that the weeping in Ramah as described in Jeremiah is fulfilled in the weeping in Bethlehem after Herod killed all the boys 2 years and younger. This is simply not correct.

Now Matthew is wrong too? Your Bible is just full of lies huh?

So now we should trust you over and above inspiration, because you know what Matthew should have said, and Matthew didn't know what he was talking about?

[wayfinder]

Matthew's gospel is not wrong, just his prophetic applications. Matthew makes his own judgment on prophetic fulfillments, but accurately records the words of his teacher, the Son of God.

[Guest]

Well I guess it's a good thing we have you and MM to tell us when the eyewitnesses are right and when they're wrong.

No offence, but I believe the Bible is inspired by God.

[wayfinder]

No offence taken.

Your belief that the entire Bible is inspired by God, is what I call faith based upon preference and not evidence.

[John317]

Matthew's gospel is not wrong, just his prophetic applications. Matthew makes his own judgment on prophetic fulfillments, but accurately records the words of his teacher, the Son of God.

If you want to conclude that Matthew made wrong prophetic applications because he used his own mistaken judgment, what's to keep someone from saying the same thing about the gospel of John, that he was wrong in some instances, maybe in many instances?

How do you know for certain that Matthew and John accurately recorded the words of Jesus? There are many very good Bible scholars who do not believe they accurately recorded Jesus' words. Why reject the conclusions of those Bible scholars?

Is only the Gospel of John inspired? And in what sense was it "inspired"? Is it 100% correct and dependable-- more inspired than Matthew, perhaps? And how can you be absolutely certain?

[wayfinder]

Good question, one which I have asked myself. My answer would be based upon the prophetic fulfillments of Matthew and the truth in teaching from John. The prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 is evidence enough for me to know that Matthew heard and recorded what he heard from his Teacher, the Son of God. Jesus revealed in this prophecy the total and complete destruction of the temple, fulfilled in 70CE. The group that would expect the return of the Bridegroom on a certain day and go out to meet Him, but in vain, for He did not come as expected (Matthew 25:1-13). These are just a few of the teachings and prophecies/parables that have been proven by the test of time.

[John317]

The prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 is evidence enough for me to know that Matthew heard and recorded what he heard from his Teacher, the Son of God. Jesus revealed in this prophecy the total and complete destruction of the temple, fulfilled in 70CE.

What evidence or proof do you have that the Gospel of Matthew was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans?

[John317]

Michael said, "Matthew 2:17-18 clearly reveals that the timing as to when Ephraim is called to return to the Lord coincides with the ingathering of the Gentiles."

Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:   (18) “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.” Matt.2:17-18.

Here is an example of a disciple making an inaccurate prophetic reference. Matthew is saying that the weeping in Ramah as described in Jeremiah is fulfilled in the weeping in Bethlehem after Herod killed all the boys 2 years and younger. This is simply not correct.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 31 is talking about a time when the northern kingdom (Israel) would come back from exile and God would reconstitute His Kingdom in Zion. Rachel is weeping for her children in exile, but in verse 16 God says to stop weeping and have hope for the future. This NEVER happened, will never happen, and certainly had not happened at the time of Jesus Christ on earth.

Take a look at Matthew 1: 23. The Bible says this is a prophecy about the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and it quotes Isaiah 7: 14. In your judgment, is Matthew right to apply Isaiah 7: 14-16 to Mary and Jesus?

[Guest]

No offence taken.

Your belief that the entire Bible is inspired by God, is what I call faith based upon preference and not evidence.

You can call it whatever you like. It certainly makes more sense than your belief that you posses such great wisdom as to which scriptures you should keep and which ones to discard.

I call that insane. There is a text that I think applies, but I won't quote it.

[wayfinder]

Go ahead and quote it, my skin is thicker than MM, and my insanity is a matter of opinion.

[Guest]

Nah, I think you get my point. I'm not mad at you.

[Guest]

But I do have to scratch my head sometimes.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, don't we all have to scratch out head once in a while? Even though Luke wrote Acts, we use acts to understand what may have happened after Jesus left. When Peter announced that what happened on the day of Pentecost was the prophecy of Joel, we know that he could not have gotten this from God because it did not fit the circumstance at that time. It is said that hindsight is greater than foresight and I would have to agree. We live in an age to be privileged to be able to read all sorts of writings and to use them to discover with the aid of the Holy Spirit what is real truth. I am sure the John had no idea what he was writing about in Revelation since it did not include the generation of his day.

[Guest]

Yes, All that stuff to read, and yet, here I sit reading yours. I think I will get back to my study now.

Hey Rich, did you know you can download e-sword for free? Then you can download numerous different translations of the Bible for it. You can keep study notes in it, and all kinds of good stuff. (Strong's dictionary, etc.) I even found a EGW scripture commentary to go in mine. (I know you wouldn't care for that) If you don't already have it, you should check it out.

http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html

[Dr. Rich]

Yep, I did that about 4 years ago. I should update it, so thanks for reminding me.

[Guest]

You can go here and get the Sabbath School quarterly for it.

http://sharpeningthesword.net/sharpening%20the%20sword%20e-sword%20files_002.htm

First you need to upgrade to 9.5 or whatever it is.

[Michaeneu]

Michael said, "Matthew 2:17-18 clearly reveals that the timing as to when Ephraim is called to return to the Lord coincides with the ingathering of the Gentiles."

Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:   (18) “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.” Matt.2:17-18.

Here is an example of a disciple making an inaccurate prophetic reference. Matthew is saying that the weeping in Ramah as described in Jeremiah is fulfilled in the weeping in Bethlehem after Herod killed all the boys 2 years and younger. This is simply not correct.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 31 is talking about a time when the northern kingdom (Israel) would come back from exile and God would reconstitute His Kingdom in Zion. Rachel is weeping for her children in exile, but in verse 16 God says to stop weeping and have hope for the future. This NEVER happened, will never happen, and certainly had not happened at the time of Jesus Christ on earth.

This prophecy has nothing to do with the weeping in Bethlehem at the time of Herod after the birth of Jesus.

There is no coinciding of timing with Ephraim and ingathering of Gentiles. Gentile are not even mentioned in the prophecy in Jer. 31.

The prophecy of Jer.31 is about Israel and Judah coming back from exile and returning to the Lord, becoming His bride again. Had this happened (on time) the Life Road prophecies concerning Israel would have come true, and Jesus would have set up His throne in Jerusalem.

We know that none of this ever happened, and because of Israel choosing the Death Road prophecies will never happen.

If you want to call Yahweh a liar and that he doesn’t keep his promises, made a lot of pointless prophecies and that his word returns unto him void—that is your prerogative or choice and that of your posse, but it doesn’t meet that same standards as those who reconcile the scriptures. Your paradigm is simply inferior and you continually prove it by having to hack off more and more of the scriptures to uphold it. Pretty soon you’ll have nothing left but the red passages then you’ll have to even start cutting at that.

Now as to Matthews’s so called mistake, that is arbitrary and to deny it such as you do is deny that he was led by the HS to remember what Christ said to them. You guys weren’t there and I have to take his word over yours, plain and simple, that Christ stated something about the event that led Matthew to remember when the Comforter came to him and he wrote his gospel that confirmed the prophecy in Jeremiah. Moreover it conforms to Christ’s pronouncement that he did not come to destroy the prophets but fulfill them and that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church/Israel. Your two road folly just doesn’t stand up against the aforementioned by any reasonable criteria. You’re simply irrational or rationalizing.

Moreover, the prophecy does coincide with the ingathering of the Gentiles spoken of in Isaiah 54 because Yahweh is married again to a wife that was refused at youth and there is no other entity that was divorced by Yahweh but the northern tribes, Ephraim. Paul also confirms this in Galatians 4. So here we have the testimony of Matthew and Paul confirming an event together, and I for one am simply not going to take the irrational and rationalizing so called authority of you guys over these two that walked in the footsteps of Christ. I think anyone would be crazy to!

Michael

[Guest]

Amen

[Musicman1228]

When, what date, did God remarry either the northern kingdom, southern kingdom. or both? I can't find it.

[phkrause]

Its absolutely incredible, is all I can say John.

pk

[wayfinder]

Michael, you offer Isaiah 54, I offer Isaiah 57. The whole Prophecy taken as one is life road or death road.

1 The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2 Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.

3 "But you--come here, you sons of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes! 4 Whom are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars? 5 You burn with lust among the oaks and under every spreading tree; you sacrifice your children in the ravines and under the overhanging crags. 6 The idols among the smooth stones of the ravines are your portion; they, they are your lot. Yes, to them you have poured out drink offerings and offered grain offerings. In the light of these things, should I relent? 7 You have made your bed on a high and lofty hill; there you went up to offer your sacrifices. 8 Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness. 9 You went to Molech with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the grave itself! 10 You were wearied by all your ways, but you would not say, 'It is hopeless.' You found renewal of your strength, and so you did not faint. 11 "Whom have you so dreaded and feared that you have been false to me, and have neither remembered me nor pondered this in your hearts? Is it not because I have long been silent that you do not fear me? 12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.

13 When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you! The wind will carry all of them off, a mere breath will blow them away. But the man who makes me his refuge will inherit the land and possess my holy mountain." 14 And it will be said: "Build up, build up, prepare the road! Remove the obstacles out of the way of my people." 15 For this is what the high and lofty One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite. 16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-- the breath of man that I have created.

17 I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him, 19 creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the Lord. "And I will heal them." 20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. 21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."