Temptation as a friend...

[Twilight]

There is a very pro-catholic entry on Wiki, which I have taken the following exerpt from:

Notice the thing they really had issue with:

-------------------------

Grace vs. works

In the Christian dispute regarding grace and works, Guyon defended the controversial belief that salvation is the result of grace, not works. Like St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, and Martin Luther, she thought that a person's deliverance can only come from God as an outside source, never from within the person himself or herself. Accordingly, God is supposed to decide who is to be saved, regardless of anyone's efforts or industry. He then, as a result of His own free will, bestows his favor as a gift. This predestination was opposed by the Pelagians, who considered it to be irrational in that God would favor a wicked sinner over a good person. However, according to Schopenhauer, "if it were works, springing from motives and deliberate intention, that led to the blissful state, then, however we may turn it, virtue would always be only a prudent, methodical, far–seeing egoism. … Works …can never justify, because they are always an action from motives."[2] In her autobiography, for example, Madame Guyon criticized self–righteous people who try to gain heaven through their works. She praised lowly sinners who merely submitted themselves to God's will. Of the righteous, she wrote:

…the righteous, supported by the great number of works of righteousness he presumes to have done, seems to hold his salvation in his own hands, and regards heaven as the recompense due to his merits.… His Savior is for him almost useless.

[3] These righteous persons expect God to deliver and save them as payment for their good works. In contrast to the self–sufficient, righteous egoists, the sinners who have selflessly submitted to God "are carried swiftly by the wings of love and confidence into the arms of their Savior, who gives them gratuitously what He has infinitely merited for them."[4] God's "bounties are effects of His will, and not the fruits of our merits."[5]

--------------------------------

I think you could place that side by side with any SOP entry (except for the pre-destination emphasis)...

Remarkable doctrinal maturity for someone that was raised in the Catholic system. (Although on some points she never received light - but any grounded adventist will recognise that).

But notice her position on the merits of Christ...

who gives them gratuitously what He has infinitely merited for them."

God bless :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

But anyway...

Back to topic.

Temptation as our friend...

However you turn to God, within or without, temptation aids that process. :-)

Mark

[Woody]

I too ordered the book, and I am looking forward to reading it. But since I ordered it I found out that Madame Guyon was a mystic. Someone told me this:

Quote:

... Yesterday I Googled her for something to do and the write-ups were less than complimentary. I do have her autobiography and don't think I'll run into much trouble there, but she was a mystic (like many from the Middle Ages). I don't know how much faith Adventists put in mysticism, knowing what we know.

Amazing. What lengths some Adventists will go to ... to find what backs up their theories.

[Zeta]

Twlight, I just read your post and must commend your content. We, too often allow other to determine our course of action based on their

opinion. As, you indicated,

"We have a lot to learn from other Christians that have walked the path." And, "...each should examine for themselves and hold fast to what is true." Thank you for your words of wisdom.

I have not read the book but, I will.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I too ordered the book, and I am looking forward to reading it. But since I ordered it I found out that Madame Guyon was a mystic. Someone told me this:

Quote:

... Yesterday I Googled her for something to do and the write-ups were less than complimentary. I do have her autobiography and don't think I'll run into much trouble there, but she was a mystic (like many from the Middle Ages). I don't know how much faith Adventists put in mysticism, knowing what we know.

Amazing. What lengths some Adventists will go to ... to find what backs up their theories.

Indeed... :-)

[Twilight]

Twlight, I just read your post and must commend your content. We, too often allow other to determine our course of action based on their

opinion. As, you indicated,

"We have a lot to learn from other Christians that have walked the path." And, "...each should examine for themselves and hold fast to what is true." Thank you for your words of wisdom.

I have not read the book but, I will.

I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. :-)

Mark

[Gail]

I have just been reading online Guyon's "A Short and Very Easy Method of Prayer."

Now this might not bother you, but what do you make of her idea of going inward to find God? (ie- God is our center) This rings familiar with New Age circles of today:

Quote:

2. GOD has an attractive virtue which draws the soul more and more powerfully to Himself, and in attracting, He purifies; just as it is with a gross vapor exhaled by the sun, which, as it gradually ascends, is rarified and rendered pure; the vapor, indeed, contributes to its ascent only by its passivity; but the soul co-operates freely and voluntarily.

This kind of introversion is very easy and advances the soul naturally, and without effort, because God is our centre. The centre always exerts a very powerful attractive virtue; and the more spiritual and exalted it is, the more violent and irresistible are its attractions.

3. But besides the attracting virtue of the centre, there is, in every creature, a strong tendency to reunion with its centre, which is vigorous and active in proportion to the spirituality and perfection of the subject.

As soon as anything is turned towards its centre, it is precipitated towards it with extreme rapidity, unless it be withheld by some invincible obstacle. A stone held in the hand is no sooner disengaged than by its own weight it falls to the earth as to its centre; so also water and fire, when unobstructed, flow incessantly towards their centre. Now, when the soul by its efforts to recollect itself, is brought into the influence of the central tendency, it falls gradually, without any other force than the weight of love, into its proper centre; and the more passive and tranquil it remains, and the freer from self-motion, the more rapidly it advances, because the energy of the central attractive virtue is unobstructed, and has full liberty for action.

4. All our care should therefore be directed towards acquiring the greatest degree of inward recollection; nor should we be discouraged by the difficulties we encounter in this exercise, which will soon be recompensed on the part of God, by such abundant supplies of grace, as will render it perfectly easy, provided we are faithful in meekly withdrawing our hearts from outward distractions and occupations, and returning to our centre, with affections full of tenderness and serenity. When at any time the passions are turbulent, a gentle retreat inwards to a present God, easily deadens them; any other way of opposing rather irritates than appeases them.

Her emphasis in prayer is to not employ reason... But the Bible counsels us to "reason together".

I'm not saying that there is not much good there in what I've read, but God doesn't ask us to surrender our minds totally, but our understanding is to think (meditate) on His ways.

Help here, please?

[Twilight]

I have just been reading online Guyon's "A Short and Very Easy Method of Prayer."

Now this might not bother you, but what do you make of her idea of going inward to find God? (ie- God is our center) This rings familiar with New Age circles of today:

Quote:

2. GOD has an attractive virtue which draws the soul more and more powerfully to Himself, and in attracting, He purifies; just as it is with a gross vapor exhaled by the sun, which, as it gradually ascends, is rarified and rendered pure; the vapor, indeed, contributes to its ascent only by its passivity; but the soul co-operates freely and voluntarily.

This kind of introversion is very easy and advances the soul naturally, and without effort, because God is our centre. The centre always exerts a very powerful attractive virtue; and the more spiritual and exalted it is, the more violent and irresistible are its attractions.

3. But besides the attracting virtue of the centre, there is, in every creature, a strong tendency to reunion with its centre, which is vigorous and active in proportion to the spirituality and perfection of the subject.

As soon as anything is turned towards its centre, it is precipitated towards it with extreme rapidity, unless it be withheld by some invincible obstacle. A stone held in the hand is no sooner disengaged than by its own weight it falls to the earth as to its centre; so also water and fire, when unobstructed, flow incessantly towards their centre. Now, when the soul by its efforts to recollect itself, is brought into the influence of the central tendency, it falls gradually, without any other force than the weight of love, into its proper centre; and the more passive and tranquil it remains, and the freer from self-motion, the more rapidly it advances, because the energy of the central attractive virtue is unobstructed, and has full liberty for action.

4. All our care should therefore be directed towards acquiring the greatest degree of inward recollection; nor should we be discouraged by the difficulties we encounter in this exercise, which will soon be recompensed on the part of God, by such abundant supplies of grace, as will render it perfectly easy, provided we are faithful in meekly withdrawing our hearts from outward distractions and occupations, and returning to our centre, with affections full of tenderness and serenity. When at any time the passions are turbulent, a gentle retreat inwards to a present God, easily deadens them; any other way of opposing rather irritates than appeases them.

Her emphasis in prayer is to not employ reason... But the Bible counsels us to "reason together".

I'm not saying that there is not much good there in what I've read, but God doesn't ask us to surrender our minds totally, but our understanding is to think (meditate) on His ways.

Help here, please?

We have to remember some clear biblical texts:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now when the New Age say God is in you, they say YOU are God.

Guyon is not saying that. She is stating that God the individual is in you.

She talks about us entering into union with God, but that is entering into a Spiritual Union where self dies and Christ reigns which again is biblical.

This talks of the indwelling of the Spirit of God and our reconnection with God:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

She uses a very spiritual language, which can be a little difficult at first, but these same principles are littered in the Bible and SOP.

She is in no way is she saying that we are God.

Remember, error always lies close to the tracks of truth...

Hope that helps :-)

Mark

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Gail, I don't have any Bible texts I know of to offer, but from the quote you wrote here, I would run, not walk, away from this book. It reeks of the same ideas and techniques that I formerly used when working Magick. Don't get mixed up in it. Please.

[Twilight]

Gail, I don't have any Bible texts I know of to offer, but from the quote you wrote here, I would run, not walk, away from this book. It reeks of the same ideas and techniques that I formerly used when working Magick. Don't get mixed up in it. Please.

What similarities from the posts here do you see with working "Magick"?

I am curious?

Mark

[Woody]

Yes Pam ... it certainly concerns me.

[Gail]

Mark, your added information helps a great deal. I also sympathize with Pam.

The reason I ask this is because I sell Christian books for a living. There are certain ones that I would recommend (non-SDA books, I mean) and there are ones that I would be hesitant to recommend.

I try to discern a person's needs as much as possible beforehand and try to be sensitive to where they are spiritually.

For the information given above, I would not recommend Guyon's writings to Pam, who is from a background of the occult. She would be particularly sensitive to those ideas that she has already encountered.

You, OTOH, have a different environment and probably are not as likely to be swayed by something that would seem New-Agy to others.

Myself, I like Hannah Hurnard's Hinds Feet on High Places. But the same author swerved into pantheism in her later years. Her last book was so far that way that no Christian publisher would print it. It is available through New Age bookstores.

But I did not find anything that way in Hind's Feet. That book I still recommend.

I deal with this issue all the time. The best I feel I can offer the customer is to be informed, give the customer a disclaimer if I feel impressed that it would be helpful, and then allow them their choice.

One recent book that I have been recommending to people is written by a Catholic, the ex-wife of Lance Armstrong. It is a devotional of how the Bible touched her during her divorce. I tell people that fact, that there will be references to her church (a couple, anyway) and to realise that. But in my reading of it, that fact did not detract from the thoughts she gleaned from her reading the Bible on her own. That is what I tell customers. I just think it helpful to them.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? When I say "mysticism" to people, especially Protestant folks, especially Adventist folk, certain pictures are formed, that of Joan of Arc or Bernadette of Lourdes. I am interested not so much in what is "wrong" with them as in gaining both sides of the picture.

[Twilight]

Her emphasis in prayer is to not employ reason... But the Bible counsels us to "reason together".

I'm not saying that there is not much good there in what I've read, but God doesn't ask us to surrender our minds totally, but our understanding is to think (meditate) on His ways.

Help here, please?

She differentiates between a prayer of the mind (intellectual) and a prayer of the heart (emotional).

She is not saying we should not "think".

Any "thoughts" she counsels us to surrender are "carnal thoughts".

This is biblical.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

But this is not a prayer of the "intellect" being taught, but a prayer of the "heart".

Where we learn to "listen".

This is not a prayer of "inactivity", such as the new agers practice, or a blank meditation, not at all.

This method of prayer has taught me to "listen".

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

----------------

SOP:

The still, small voice is speaking to them, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." They must so conduct themselves that they will be susceptible to the influences of the Holy Spirit. Angels in the appearance of men will walk by the side of the student who will submit his will to God's will. {10MR 319.1}

e want men that walk with God daily, that have a living connection with Heaven. The Lord cannot work with those who are self-sufficient, and who exalt themselves. Self must be hid in Jesus. If we would see the deep movings of the Spirit of God, we must have the truth as it is in Jesus. The efficiency of a discourse depends on the application of the truth to the heart by the Spirit of God. When Elijah sought God in the mountains, a devouring fire swept by; but God was not in the flame. A tempest rose, the thunder rolled, and the lightnings flashed; but God was not in all this. Then there came a still small voice, and the prophet covered his head before the presence of the Lord. It is the still, small voice of the Spirit of God that has the power to convict and convert men's souls.--RH June 18, 1889. {PaM 21.1}

Well may humanity exclaim, Who can know God? We may, as did Elijah, wrap our mantles about us, and listen to hear the still, small voice of God.

Hope that helps some. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Mark, your added information helps a great deal. I also sympathize with Pam.

The reason I ask this is because I sell Christian books for a living. There are certain ones that I would recommend (non-SDA books, I mean) and there are ones that I would be hesitant to recommend.

I try to discern a person's needs as much as possible beforehand and try to be sensitive to where they are spiritually.

For the information given above, I would not recommend Guyon's writings to Pam, who is from a background of the occult. She would be particularly sensitive to those ideas that she has already encountered.

You, OTOH, have a different environment and probably are not as likely to be swayed by something that would seem New-Agy to others.

Myself, I like Hannah Hurnard's Hinds Feet on High Places. But the same author swerved into pantheism in her later years. Her last book was so far that way that no Christian publisher would print it. It is available through New Age bookstores.

But I did not find anything that way in Hind's Feet. That book I still recommend.

I deal with this issue all the time. The best I feel I can offer the customer is to be informed, give the customer a disclaimer if I feel impressed that it would be helpful, and then allow them their choice.

One recent book that I have been recommending to people is written by a Catholic, the ex-wife of Lance Armstrong. It is a devotional of how the Bible touched her during her divorce. I tell people that fact, that there will be references to her church (a couple, anyway) and to realise that. But in my reading of it, that fact did not detract from the thoughts she gleaned from her reading the Bible on her own. That is what I tell customers. I just think it helpful to them.

Do you understand where I'm coming from? When I say "mysticism" to people, especially Protestant folks, especially Adventist folk, certain pictures are formed, that of Joan of Arc or Bernadette of Lourdes. I am interested not so much in what is "wrong" with them as in gaining both sides of the picture.

It is one of those books that can be easily misunderstood with a surface reading.

I understand where you are coming from.

Most Adventists do not consider that they can "learn" from anyone non-adventist.

I would really recommend going through the book slowly, testing all things.

I would also really appreciate any insight you may have where I might have missed something.

I have just never read a book that is so detailed on the inward life, howbeit the language she uses "speaks" to me personally, but some may struggle with it.

Her own peers struggled with it, but it was not until her "fruits" where shown, that a lot of them laid down their prejudices and cautions.

Why?

Because she was so far ahead of them spiritually in many ways, they struggled to understand her.

It will be the same today.

Some will not understand.

Some will seek to detract out of an evil motive.

Some will read and decide it is not for them.

But some will gain a deep blessing.

It is the same will all deeply spiritual books.

She was a Catholic and a lot of the language is used from that culture, so it seems a little strange to us, but I have yet to find her teachings disagreeing with the bible in this area, (obviously she did not have light on the state of the dead or the Sabbath etc), but on the "inward path" of Abiding in Christ, I can find no fault as yet.

If someone does, I would be willing and open to hear it.

But I will not listen to those that denounce it without reading, however good or bad their motives.

Test all things...

God bless,

Mark

[Gerr]

When the test comes from God, it is meant to benefit us.

When the test/temptation comes from Satan, it is meant to lead us into sin. He ain't no friend. He's an enemy.

[Twilight]

When the test comes from God, it is meant to benefit us.

When the test/temptation comes from Satan, it is meant to lead us into sin. He ain't no friend. He's an enemy.

But nothing comes from Satan unless God permits it...

Mark :-)

[Woody]

There is no need to compromise with Truth. We have the truth in the Bible and SOP. Why go elsewhere ... ???

[Twilight]

There is no need to compromise with Truth. We have the truth in the Bible and SOP. Why go elsewhere ... ???

Does that mean you are laying down Jack Sequiera' teachings then Redwood?

Can we now celebrate this newfound conviction of yours?

:-)

Test all things...

Mark

[Woody]

Jack Sequiera is a Seventh day Adventist who teaches Biblical Truth and supports the SOP.

[skyblue888]

Mark, my dear friend and brother, I am very sorry but I must say that I too do not feel comfortable with the statements Gail quoted from that book.

The 1888 message, the most precious message ever sent to God's professed people, did not direct the people to look inwardly but outwardly. It is written that "Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine Person, to His merits." See T.M.92.

That message taught the people that unless they made it their life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits, which it was their privilege to claim, they could not be saved, they could not benefit from the plan of salvation. See T.M.93 and 1 S.M.364.

So the people were invited, not to look inwardly, but to "look up and live!" By faith they were to behold the crucified and risen Saviour and to lay right hold upon the merits of His shed blood. As they would do this, their sins would be blotted out and God would clothe them with the robe of Christ's righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven. See 1 Cor.1:30 and Gospel Worker, p.166. Thus He would keep them from every evil work and preserve them for His heavenly Kingdom. See 2 Tim.4:18.

When we dwell upon Jesus and His all-sufficient merits and meditate upon His word, we may hear the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit impressing the truth upon our human mind. Then it imparts power, it begets life, even the life of the Infinite One enabling us to live a righteous life.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts to impress the truths into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures. You should fill the mind with the Word of God, for you may be separated and placed where you will not have the privilege of meeting with the children of God. Then you will want the treasures of God's Word hidden in your hearts, and when opposition comes around you, you will need to bring everything to the Scriptures." F.W.56,57.

We are not to look inwardly but rather we are to look up and lay right hold upon the all-sufficient merits of the uplifted Saviour that the Holy Spirit may work in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

sky

*of course it is true that as we meditate, there is silence in the soul, and we hear God's voice more distinctly as we study the Word and the Testimonies of His Spirit.

[skyblue888]

There is no need to compromise with Truth. We have the truth in the Bible and SOP. Why go elsewhere ... ???

Red, does that mean that you accept the writings of Mrs. White as truth?

sky

[Twilight]

Mark, my dear friend and brother, I am very sorry but I must say that I too do not feel comfortable with the statements Gail quoted from that book.

The 1888 message, the most precious message ever sent to God's professed people, did not direct the people to look inwardly but outwardly. It is written that "Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine Person, to His merits." See T.M.92.

That message taught the people that unless they made it their life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits, which it was their privilege to claim, they could not be saved, they could not benefit from the plan of salvation. See T.M.93 and 1 S.M.364.

So the people were invited, not to look inwardly, but to "look up and live!" By faith they were to behold the crucified and risen Saviour and to lay right hold upon the merits of His shed blood. As they would do this, their sins would be blotted out and God would clothe them with the robe of Christ's righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven. See 1 Cor.1:30 and Gospel Worker, p.166. Thus He would keep them from every evil work and preserve them for His heavenly Kingdom. See 2 Tim.4:18.

When we dwell upon Jesus and His all-sufficient merits and meditate upon His word, we may hear the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit impressing the truth upon our human mind. Then it imparts power, it begets life, even the life of the Infinite One enabling us to live a righteous life.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts to impress the truths into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures. You should fill the mind with the Word of God, for you may be separated and placed where you will not have the privilege of meeting with the children of God. Then you will want the treasures of God's Word hidden in your hearts, and when opposition comes around you, you will need to bring everything to the Scriptures." F.W.56,57.

We are not to look inwardly but rather we are to look up and lay right hold upon the all-sufficient merits of the uplifted Saviour that the Holy Spirit may work in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

sky

*of course it is true that as we meditate, there is silence in the soul, and we hear God's voice more distinctly as we study the Word and the Testimonies of His Spirit.

I understand your point, but I think you stop short my friend.

There are many things we are to find and discover and we should not make one truth the sole object of our attention.

The Merits of Christ open up the way to the experience of the indwelling Christ and the purification of mind and heart.

There is also more than one way to express a view.

You will find that as you study the bible, different inspired writers presented the same things in different ways.

Jeremiah was very into the pyschological state of a Christian, whereas others were much more focused on heart condition.

We should not be narrow and think that there is only "one" truth to express.

We must take all the light and let it shine.

Abiding with Christ is a subject we need to dwell on.

We also when we teach have to use different language for different people.

But when "one" way of expression, or "one" way of expressing a truth is the only one permitted, we become blind to precious light.

Sometimes a person is given a spiritual awakening in an area and that awakening can keep them going many years, the same spiritual awakening in another may not have the same impact or last so long, but we must not think that when we find one sign post we are to stop there and venture no further.

We have many things to learn from many different viewpoints.

Jean Guyon for instance, spent over 50 years just learning and teaching this simple method to connect to God.

It was her total focus.

Let us not be so arrogant to think, that unless it is all layed out in the SOP, that it is not truth, that God has only been speaking to His servants since 1844.

We have many things to learn brother. :-)

I say this in love, but I ask you to consider her writings, you know yourself how people get confused by language and cannot see things because of pre-conceived ideas, ask the Lord if you are having the same experience now and are in fact missing a great blessing.

If people do not wish to look at these things, then that is their choice.

But there is a deep blessing there for those that do.

Let us not limit God to our "comfort" zone...

Mark

[Twilight]

Jack Sequiera is a Seventh day Adventist who teaches Biblical Truth and supports the SOP.

Jack Sequiera is a Seventh Day Adventist that teaches principles directly opposite to the SOP.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark, my dear friend and brother, I am very sorry but I must say that I too do not feel comfortable with the statements Gail quoted from that book.

The 1888 message, the most precious message ever sent to God's professed people, did not direct the people to look inwardly but outwardly. It is written that "Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine Person, to His merits." See T.M.92.

That message taught the people that unless they made it their life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits, which it was their privilege to claim, they could not be saved, they could not benefit from the plan of salvation. See T.M.93 and 1 S.M.364.

So the people were invited, not to look inwardly, but to "look up and live!" By faith they were to behold the crucified and risen Saviour and to lay right hold upon the merits of His shed blood. As they would do this, their sins would be blotted out and God would clothe them with the robe of Christ's righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven. See 1 Cor.1:30 and Gospel Worker, p.166. Thus He would keep them from every evil work and preserve them for His heavenly Kingdom. See 2 Tim.4:18.

When we dwell upon Jesus and His all-sufficient merits and meditate upon His word, we may hear the still, small voice of the Holy Spirit impressing the truth upon our human mind. Then it imparts power, it begets life, even the life of the Infinite One enabling us to live a righteous life.

"And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts to impress the truths into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures. You should fill the mind with the Word of God, for you may be separated and placed where you will not have the privilege of meeting with the children of God. Then you will want the treasures of God's Word hidden in your hearts, and when opposition comes around you, you will need to bring everything to the Scriptures." F.W.56,57.

We are not to look inwardly but rather we are to look up and lay right hold upon the all-sufficient merits of the uplifted Saviour that the Holy Spirit may work in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

sky

*of course it is true that as we meditate, there is silence in the soul, and we hear God's voice more distinctly as we study the Word and the Testimonies of His Spirit.

I understand your point, but I think you stop short my friend.

There are many things we are to find and discover and we should not make one truth the sole object of our attention.

The Merits of Christ open up the way to the experience of the indwelling Christ and the purification of mind and heart.

There is also more than one way to express a view.

You will find that as you study the bible, different inspired writers presented the same things in different ways.

Jeremiah was very into the pyschological state of a Christian, whereas others were much more focused on heart condition.

We should not be narrow and think that there is only "one" truth to express.

We must take all the light and let it shine.

Abiding with Christ is a subject we need to dwell on.

We also when we teach have to use different language for different people.

But when "one" way of expression, or "one" way of expressing a truth is the only one permitted, we become blind to precious light.

Sometimes a person is given a spiritual awakening in an area and that awakening can keep them going many years, the same spiritual awakening in another may not have the same impact or last so long, but we must not think that when we find one sign post we are to stop there and venture no further.

We have many things to learn from many different viewpoints.

Jean Guyon for instance, spent over 50 years just learning and teaching this simple method to connect to God.

It was her total focus.

Let us not be so arrogant to think, that unless it is all layed out in the SOP, that it is not truth, that God has only been speaking to His servants since 1844.

We have many things to learn brother. :-)

I say this in love, but I ask you to consider her writings, you know yourself how people get confused by language and cannot see things because of pre-conceived ideas, ask the Lord if you are having the same experience now and are in fact missing a great blessing.

If people do not wish to look at these things, then that is their choice.

But there is a deep blessing there for those that do.

Let us not limit God to our "comfort" zone...

Mark

Mark, I do appreciate your zeal and your burning desire to share your thoughts with us on this.

While I acknowledge that, through the Spirit, Christ is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," "moving in all things according to His will," I also believe His promise that as I daily hang my helpless soul upon His all-sufficient merits that He will work in me both to will and to do God's good pleasure and God's good pleasure, as you already know, is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. That is how every precept of the law becomes a promise to me, a most positive promise of their own fulfilment. He has promised to do this for me if I will simply trust wholly in the merits of His sacrifice for my salvation, for my acceptance with God; but how He does all this work in the inner man, I do not know and I don't need to know. No one can explain it.

It is said that when we approach God through the merits of Christ, Jesus encircles us with His human arm and presses us close by His side while with His divine arm He grasps the throne of the Infinite! We become one with Him as He is one with the Father! This is a great mystery!

All I know is that as I rest in the merits of Christ, wonderful works are wrought by the Holy Spirit in the inner sanctuary of the soul, in the inner man, and the love of God is also "diffused through the whole being!" See M.H.115.

We are invited to daily present our case before God trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's shed blood. Then, as Mrs. White stated in F.W. p.106, we are drawing nigh to God and He is drawing nigh to us!

I just took another look at the book. There is a lot of talk about moving toward the Center but as we daily look to Christ and accept His merits which it is our privilege co claim, we become one with the Center and He accomplishes everything. We do not need to work on "moving toward the center" for we are already one with the Center when we rely solely upon His merits for our accpetance with God.

Mark, where in that book is the necessity of appropriating the merits of Christ ever discussed? where in that book do you read about the importance of making it our lifebusiness to behold Christ and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim in order for His righteousness to be brought into the life?

I didn't find one word on that subject.

But the Lord in 1888 sent us a most precious message that did exactly that. The message directed the eyes of the people to Jesus, to His divine Person, and to His divine merits which it is our privilege to claim. Thats the Good News, the Glad Tidings!

This was the precious truth that had been lost for centuries and that would bring untold blessings, all the blessings of the Covenant of grace within the reach of all who would receive, believe, and act upon this simple truth.

Christ abiding is us and us in Him according to the commandment is the mystery of godliness, the mystery of God dwelling in the flesh, in sinful flesh. This is a great mystery.

All I am trying to say Mark, is that the Christian life is a miracle and we do not need to understand how it is accomplished in the inner man because we do not have to do it and we could not do it if we tried. Many have tried and have failed miserably. It is God who is to work in us both to will and to do.

"There is need for constant watchfulness and of earnest devotion, but these will come naturally when the soul is kept by the power of God through faith." F.W.38, bottom of page.

Back to you my dear brother,

sky

[Twilight]

Let my response come from this:

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Let us apply this to the writings of Jean Guyon.

1. Quench not the Spirit.

We have to be careful, if the Lord gave Jean Guyon light and we reject it, then we are guilty of quenching the work of the Holy Spirit.

2. Despise not prophesyings.

Again we are called not to despise those that present the truth of God to us, we are not to despise something without cause or scriptural basis.

3. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

We are to take any teaching and prove them, we should examine the teachings of Jean Guyon, consider them and weigh them, if it is good, hold fast to it.

-----------------------------

Has that happened here?

Is the resistance to these teachings that has been expressed in accord with these spiritual principles.

Let us examine the two claims:

1. A cursory examination has proven their error.

What we do if someone said, "I have read one of Ellen Whites letters, and she is not inspired". Would we give that opinion weight?

2. She was a mystic.

Do we accept that statement? Or do we examine its source?

Consider these words from Jesus:

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Are they "mystical"? Is it a language hard to be understood?

Or is it "spiritual" language and not "mystical"?

Would it be easy for someone to confuse the two?

3. Who laid the charge of her being a mystic?

The Catholic Church.

So let me ask a question, when did we take the Catholic Churches persecution of a saint of God as evidence for a viewpoint on their connection with God?

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So considering these things, unless we have studied her life (the fruits) and compared her teachings with scripture, we should not speak against her teachings.

If we have something from scripture to prove she was not inspired by God, then we should present it.

Until then, we should not despise her.

Because we would be despising the Spirit of God, if indeed she was of God.

Prove all things...

God bless,

Mark