Signs of the Times

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, when they left the denomination they wanted to keep the name. We won that legal battle, but what we can't do is stop them from giving Sabbath keepers, and IMHO Christianity, a bad name...

[phkrause]

I guess that's true Tom. Well the important thing is that God can always work around our stupidity.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

The question is how do we separate 'our message' so that people will become SDA's. If that is the focus of our evangelism, then we are in God way and a hindrance. The Gospel of Christ is not about SDA, Baptist, Lutheran, etc., but about a better future through the death of Christ and acceptance of such. The Holy Spirit does the 'heart' work and not us. It is not my business to get in the way of that process and be concerned about making more SDA's. We are to point to Christ and His love for us.

The above has been said a hundred times by many on this forum and yet we continue to argue about it. If we don't know the most important part of The Gospel, than why the concern about the step in other peoples lives...sheesh!

However if the underlined above were the only communication we needed to be concerned about, we could easily give it by just handing out a one page tract without carrying around that big bible.

Post #275398

If this part of the three angel's messages was made paramount, followed by the rest when one recognizes Infinite power to save by love, there would probably be less problems.

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"Revelation 14:6 KJV

Blessings!

_________________________

[LifeHiscost]

Answer to Tom

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." Deuteronomy 14:2 KJV

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord."Ephesians 5:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

Tonight Blanche had a meeting with community pastors. All other pastors were non-SDAs. She had some pastors come up to her and ask if her church was responsible for the 'signs' on the highway. And if our church believed that other Christians were condemned to Hell for not going to church on Saturday.

Embarrassed she clearly told them NO. And apologized for the confusion. I am wondering if my letter to the editor writing skills are in order to set the record straight?

[Stan]

Writing a letter to the editor will often only draw more attention to them. Confronting the people doing them usually gives them strength to do more.

Sometimes it is best to ignore them

[Woody]

Thanks Stan. Appreciate your input.

[BobRyan]

HEY BOBRYAN

THE sign starts out with the words "Saturday the true

LORDS DAY"

TRue -- and if it had stopped at that point -- or maybe just added the Mark 2:27-28 or Isaiah 58 text -- it would have been much better as "outreach" than what the direction the sign took.

Ellen White stated emphatically that we are to avoid statements that merely offend catholic Christians -- pushing them away rather than inviting them to study. Many things can be fully explained in the context of a seminar meeting - that don't get communicated well in a sign-byte.

Though the sign be technically correct from a Bible point of view - Christ stated in John 16 "I have many more things to say to you but you cannot bear them". Just because we know some doctrinal point that a non-SDA does not know -- does not mean we are always to share it as our first contact.

Historically and statistically - the "beasts" and images of beasts and antichrist have been very effective not only at reaching churched people - but also unchurched. So inviting people to a "subject" on the mark of the beast or the antichrist -- is very effective. But the sign-byte association of Sunday with the Antichrist etc - would not give enough context to encourage honest inquiry and study in most cases.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

Bob,

There's not really a good way around the issue. I have Catholic friends, and fortunately are much more understanding than many Adventists that I know. We engage in meaningful conversations, and I have to say that they have many great points that we completely miss concerning what they believe.

But the point is exactly that... if you can't put what you believe on a billboard... because it's "too offensive", then how are you going to do it in casual conversation when the subject comes up? Sure, you can leave the "antichrist changed it to Sunday" part out, but isn't that the reason we conducting these seminars for (most of which take a couple of weeks to get to that part)? Arn't they supposed to be warned?

Let's say we are correct, and tomorrow there will be a call to legislate Sunday observance. Would the billboards like these be the "wrong thing to do"?

I guess the thing that I just don't get about Adventism is that we are both proud and ashamed of our message at the same time. We kind of hide behind being "polite" and don't bring the subject up, unless we are in a comfort zone of a seminar with a speaker on the podium and people who don't challenge or ask difficult questions...

So which one is it? I've heard a guy approached our pastor one day and asked him "Do you believe that Sunday keeping is the mark of the beast?". I could tell that the pastor felt uneasy about unswerving the question directly, and instead he chose to say something like " I tell you what, we are having a seminar soon, how about you come and I'll tell you about what I believe?". I don't think the guy ever came back, but why do we tip-toe and give people the impression that it's a very tricky subject? It's either is, or it is not. The papacy is either antichrist, or it is not?

While part of me understands the issue of "knowing the context" and bringing people in gradually, other part of me is sick of all of the hiding and "uneasiness" about the subject... like it's the best kept Adventist secret, along with the E.G. White issues... that people run from our church after they find out after a while.

[phkrause]

Good points Bob and Stan.

pk

[SivartM]

Speaking of not talking about Ellen White, I've never heard of Mormons keeping quiet about Joseph Smith until they have evangelistic series.

[BobRyan]

Mormons use the book of mormon (claiming that Joseph Smith wrote it) for teaching -- they do not "just come around with the Bible". Pretty hard not to mention the book of mormon while you are handing it out -- as your "outreach".

[BobRyan]

Bob,

There's not really a good way around the issue. I have Catholic friends, and fortunately are much more understanding than many Adventists that I know. We engage in meaningful conversations, and I have to say that they have many great points that we completely miss concerning what they believe.

But the point is exactly that... if you can't put what you believe on a billboard... because it's "too offensive", then how are you going to do it in casual conversation when the subject comes up? Sure, you can leave the "antichrist changed it to Sunday" part out, but isn't that the reason we conducting these seminars for (most of which take a couple of weeks to get to that part)? Arn't they supposed to be warned?

Let's say we are correct, and tomorrow there will be a call to legislate Sunday observance. Would the billboards like these be the "wrong thing to do"?

I guess the thing that I just don't get about Adventism is that we are both proud and ashamed of our message at the same time. We kind of hide behind being "polite" and don't bring the subject up, unless we are in a comfort zone of a seminar with a speaker on the podium and people who don't challenge or ask difficult questions...

I don't see it that way. Some topics need more than a "sign byte" to explain otherwise they just come across as "trying to be mean".

My argument is not that we not talk to people about the subjects. My argument is that our opponants (on non-SDA boards) love to stick a sign-byte out there about Sunday with no context or support so as to bias people against the Bible teaching before they have even read one text on the subject.

Why should we help them in that mission?

Even Ellen White argues that keeping Sunday instead of the 4th commandment is not the mark of the beast - until such a time as people are fully informed and laws are passed.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

I would completely agree with you, but unfortunately this is not the logic of the message, neither it IS the message that is given. Here're a couple of things to think about.

The concept of the "Seal of God" is of great importance to Christian life. The "Seal of God" ensures salvation. I don't see two seals being given. It's either a person is sealed, or he is not.

The traditional SDA position is that the seal of God is the observance of the Sabbath commandment. The idea behind it is that sign and seal are "interchangeable" concepts and thus the same, which I beg to disagree.

But, logically, wouldn't you think that once you make the Sabbath observance to be the Seal of God described in Revelation (As opposed to the proper position of the Holy Spirit)... you make out that TODAY people who don't worship on Sabbath don't have that seal?

I mean... Christian idea of salvation is fairly straightforward. You acknowledge the position you are in, and you turn to God who in turns gives you his Spirit as a Mark... The spirit gradually guides you to the truth and convicts you of many things. If you have the Spirit of God, we are His. If we don't, we are not His.

The logic is that everyone who has the Spirit of God would observe the Sabbath... but that's NOT the case. The Spirit of God does not guarantee that, neither Sabbath observance guarantees true salvation experience.

You see, when we make the Sabbath to the the forefront of the message, there's no way around the fact that we believe that the Sabbath is of paramount importance to Christian life than Holy Spirit. I know you would say that this is not what we are saying, but to any person outside of the church... THAT'S THE MESSAGE! Sabbath is the most important thing, because that's what the end times are about, and that's what Salvation experience seems to depend on.

I'm not against the Sabbath observance when it has its proper place in Christian life. But I think we need to re-think how we approach our "evangelism meetings"... and make them about Christ and His indwelling Spirit, and not about Sabbath and how Catholic church changed it. That should be the message to the established believers who are ready to study and dissect Eschatology... not for someone who is unfamiliar with the basic Christianity.

[LifeHiscost]

I guess that's true Tom. Well the important thing is that God can always work around our stupidity.

pk

Praise God you're absolutely right PK. I will admit though, that the pain suffered because of that stupidity can often bring, even Christians, to despair if they have a tendency to blame everyone else for their frustrations.

"For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth."2 Corinthians 13:8 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

You're point is.......??

Probably would have been more clear if I had suggested it was in answer also to PK as well as Tom, concerning our stupidity. To repeat:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." Deuteronomy 14:2 KJV

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord."Ephesians 5:8-10 NKJV

___if followed would make stupidity a thing of the past. We can be grateful it is the record of Jesus' life if trusted in, that gives us hope, and not our stupidity.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Demonstrating Gods love for humans is the hard part cause we would rather do the conversion part. We feel that we must point everyone else's wrongs and those are the only texts we look for in the Bible or EGW.

What is your assessment of this instruction?

"I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom:

preach the Word; be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts."2 Timothy 4:1-3

21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Writing a letter to the editor will often only draw more attention to them. Confronting the people doing them usually gives them strength to do more.

Sometimes it is best to ignore them

Wholeheartedly agree. Especially if the message reveals an "in your face" attitude.

I'm not positive how to apply to the scene of Jesus turning over the money changer's tables. It does appear there are some circumstances that are so agregious as to confront

without apology.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Historically and statistically - the "beasts" and images of beasts and antichrist have been very effective not only at reaching churched people - but also unchurched. So inviting people to a "subject" on the mark of the beast or the antichrist -- is very effective. But the sign-byte association of Sunday with the Antichrist etc - would not give enough context to encourage honest inquiry and study in most cases.

in Christ,

Bob

Well said and fully agreed with as is also the rest of the post.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

I guess the thing that I just don't get about Adventism is that we are both proud and ashamed of our message at the same time.

Very good post, fccool. Perhaps part of our problem is the natural tendency to be embarrassed over what somebody else is doing or saying, as if somehow we are partially responsible for all that they do different than what we do if we were doing it.

This world is so mixed up at this time, it is doubtful we're going to be in accordance with 99% of what's going on or being said.

"I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom: preach the Word..."

2 Timothy 4:1,2 21st Century

To the best of one's ability, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and then let the Lord take care of where the chips fall.

Blessings!

[Tom Wetmore]

I think it ultimately is about using common sense and showing respect for other's beliefs and background, even if we don't agree with them. Why do we think poking someone in the eye is going to make them want to hear what we have to say?

There are many parts of the Bible that we avoid discussing even among ourselves, much less use as outreach, because they are uncomfortable and embarassing to talk about and difficult to explain.

Perhaps we could do a billboard of random Bible quotes that would truly be provactive. After all I am sure that someone might just be curious enough to give us a call or open their Bible and start reading. Don't worry about the ones we offend and disgust. They are apparently not worth saving anyway...

To get us started, here are a couple head-turners for our billboard outreach ministry:

Read the Good Book - "Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!" - Psalms 137:9.

Send a message to those who sit on the wall "that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you." - Isaiah 36:12

[Woody]

Quote:

Read the Good Book - "Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!" - Psalms 137:9.

Send a message to those who sit on the wall "that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you." - Isaiah 36:12

What have I done. Have mercy on me Lord for starting this thread. Amen.

[LifeHiscost]

Don't worry about the ones we offend and disgust. They are apparently not worth saving anyway...

To get us started, here are a couple head-turners for our billboard outreach ministry:

Read the Good Book - "Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!" - Psalms 137:9.

Send a message to those who sit on the wall "that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you." - Isaiah 36:12

Probably wouldn't catch too many flies, as I understand honey does. OTOH it says a great deal about the person who leaves the message. The same with the billboards we formerly saw posted.

There is something God tells us we can do when we become too offended.

"“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. "Matthew 18:15-17 NKJV

It would be interesting to know just how many who preach the Word have put that into practice.

And we're aware of how the Lord acted toward the heathen and the taxgatherer. Of course that above is primarily talking to our brothers and sisters. Is it safe to do any less for those Jesus came to save?

"But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[phkrause]

Good thoughts LifeHiscost.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Read the Good Book - "Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock!" - Psalms 137:9.

Send a message to those who sit on the wall "that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you." - Isaiah 36:12

What have I done. Have mercy on me Lord for starting this thread. Amen.

Look on it from the bright side, Redwood, some of us can't remember those Scriptures ever being there, and I'm sure they were included for a very good reason. Are we safe when we deliberately avoid certain Scripture because they don't make sense to us or we just don't like to hear distasteful things. It puts us out of our comfort zone.

I know someone who I shared a DVD with, no one from this forum, someone on the DVD from the ghettos of NYC who has been an evangelist for over 50 years, an evangelist who is responsible, by the grace of God, for leading multiplied thousands to put their trust in Jesus.

The person on the DVD touched and touches the lives of those who, at least early in his career, most fundamentalist Christians wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole.

The reason it touched my heart was because I knew there was no one he touched with his preaching, that but for the grace of God, I wouldn't be or couldn't be in circumstances far more despairing or odious.

The particular person I shared with, when asked what their response was to the message, spent all of their description on criticism of the speaker, never once referring to anything about the message with which God was probably trying to reach her. And the individual with the criticism reads many books from famous Christian authors, not the least of them, Dr Norman Vincent Peale.

There is no doubt in my mind that one of the signs of the latter times is the reluctance on the part of multitudes, to escape the reality that Bible descriptions bear a direct message to them, describing their need to accept God's power for change, change that is found to be so uncomfortable. And many, if not most, are those in the religious community, not excepting my own loved body of believers along with myself.

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth.

Because thou sayest, "I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing," and knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable, and poor and blind and naked,

I counsel thee to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Revelation 3:16-19

21st Century KJV

And having watched recent events, it appears there is a major awakening among the body of believers. There is acceptance of this message, which is propelling many into the field of endeavor, who once would have excluded the most undesirable and unlovely of those Jesus has come to save.

And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else; and My people shall never be ashamed.

"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions;

and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.

Joel 2:27-29 21st Century KJV

Blessings!