God orders an execution...

[Twilight]

In light of the discussion on God ultimately destroying - I wanted to branch off to specifically discuss this issue.

We can point to the future and all disagree what prophecy is exactly stating, but let us look at the activity of the past, which is fixed for our examination.

--------------------------------------

God ordered King Saul and Isreal to wipe out a whole nation.

Was that not God instigating corporal punishment?

God pronounced judgement.

Then told the Isrealites to carry out the death sentance on His behalf.

In fact God ordered the destruction of the wicked.

That for me shows that when all grace is resisted, the only loving thing to do is destroy those that would cause everyone else misery.

Your thoughts.

Mark

[Guest]

It's pretty hard to get around that.

[Twilight]

And this is the reason I have an issue with the idea that God does not destroy.

Clearly, if we accept the biblical interpretation, He does condone destruction as the very last resort.

Mark

[Guest]

But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 1Sam 15:9-11

And Samuel said:

And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 1Sam 5:18,19

And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 1Sam 15:33

[teresaq]

good idea twilight.

and yes on the surface that would be apparently true.

last night i just happened to come across a speaker who dug so deep into the prodigal son story. she researched each word and its original meaning. i only caught about the last half hour and it seemed to be part of a series but it was amazing how many directions and lessons she had learned and was sharing from that story.

the reason i bring that up is because yes, when we look at the surface of the bible it appears to give us one story, one picture. but as we keep digging more and more comes to light and changes our perspective.

Quote:

God ordered King Saul and Isreal to wipe out a whole nation.

did He?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

[Twilight]

Ellen White maintains the biblical line:

After this lesson, another test was prepared for Saul. The time had come for the Lord to punish the Amalekites, and Samuel brought Saul the message that Amalek was to be utterly destroyed. God gave commandment unto Saul: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 8}

But Saul did not do the work which the Lord had given him to do. --------------------

God had commanded Saul to go and smite the Amalekites, and utterly destroy all their possessions; and he was watching his course to see if Saul could be trusted with his work as king of Israel. But Saul only partially obeyed the command; he destroyed the inferior cattle, but reserved the best, and spared the wicked king. And God said to Samuel, "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments." {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 10}

This message grieved the prophet, and he cried unto the Lord all night. He saw that the people of Israel were to have their trial very soon after coming under the rule of a king. Samuel had concluded that because of Saul's stature and beauty of countenance, he would be in favor with God; but the displeasure of the Lord was kindled against Saul because of his lack of keen perception to distinguish between sacred and profane things, to recognize the requirements of God as supreme,--because, when tried, he showed that he did not properly estimate the word given through God's faithful servant. {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 11}

The next day Saul met the prophet Samuel with flattery and self-congratulations. Said he, "Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord." But the prophet immediately answered, "What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?" {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 12}

Saul was confused, and sought to shirk responsibility by answering: "They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed." {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 13}

Samuel reproved the king, reminding him of the explicit command of God to destroy all things belonging to Amalek. He pointed out his transgression, and declared that he had disobeyed the Lord. But Saul refused to acknowledge that he had done wrong; he again excused his sin by pleading that he had reserved the best cattle to sacrifice to the Lord. {YI, December 1, 1898 par. 14}

The prophet was grieved to the heart by the persistency with which the king refused to see and confess his sin. He sorrowfully asked: "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to harken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." Mrs. E. G. White.

-

{YI, December 1, 1898 par. 15}

[Twilight]

The Lord commanded Saul to "utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed." The Lord knew that this wicked nation would, if it were possible, blot out his people and his worship from the earth; and for this reason he had commanded that even the little children should be cut off. But Saul had spared the king, the most wicked and merciless of them all; one who had hated and destroyed the people of God, and whose influence had been strongest to promote idolatry. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 11}

[Lutz13]

Joshua is also a brutal book.

[Twilight]

A point I would like to bring over from the other thread is this:

If God ordered the Isrealites to "kill" the Amalekites, and it is against Gods Law to kill, then God has ordered them to throw their salvation away.

Two possibilities:

1. God did not do the ordering, satan did.

2. "Killing" is not the same as "murder" and God was not in the wrong.

Mark

[Lutz13]

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

That is a very good point as well.

[Lutz13]

A point I would like to bring over from the other thread is this:

If God ordered the Isrealites to "kill" the Amalekites, and it is against Gods Law to kill, then God has ordered them to throw their salvation away.

Two possibilities:

1. God did not do the ordering, satan did.

2. "Killing" is not the same as "murder" and God was not in the wrong.

Mark

None are innocent in this world, so can there ever be a time to kill? I believe all sin is equal in the eyes of God. Which is why we do not judge. We see murder as being far worse than someone stealing from a store. God doesn't.

[skyblue888]

Jesus said that he who picks up the sword shall perish by the sword. He discouraged the sword. He was against it. And yet in it was Him who instructed the Israelites in their use of the sword but that did not mean that He agreed with it.

The Israelites had chosen to elect the sword among them after the Red Sea episode. Why did they do that? It was their lack of faith and yet they had just left Egypt unarmed. They did not have to fight the Egyptians. God had delivered them miraculously in righteousness. But the next day they picked up the Egyptian weapons that had washed to shore. The sad story is that they never left the sword after that and in the end they said, "We have no king but Ceasar." Even the disciples carried the sword. But in the garden Jesus said to Peter that he who picks up the sword will perish by the sword.

God in His mercy did not abandon the Israelites after they elected the sword to protect themselves from their enemies. In mercy He gave them instructions that were according to the choice they had made by their lack of faith that He was able to protect them without them having to fight. Therefore His instructions were given to limit the evil consequences of their evil choice. It was in mercy to their enemies that many of these instructions were given. For example, instead of taking ten lives for one life, ten eyes for one eye, they were to limit themselves to taking one eye for one eye, one life for one life.

But when Jesus walked among them He said that, If someone strikes you on the left cheek present the right cheek, etc etc. If someone takes your coat, give him also your shirt!

This was a revolutionary teaching. But Jesus was presenting God's ideal. He was presenting the way of the Father, not the way of the sword.

sky

[Lutz13]

1. God did not do the ordering, satan did.

It is dangerous to go down that road. God has shown me through experience.

This is just a theory, and I personally do not know for sure as like I had said earlier. I see through a dark glass.

There are two different versions here:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."(1 Chronicles 21:1)

[Lutz13]

Jesus said that he who picks up the sword shall perish by the sword. He discouraged the sword. He was against it. And yet in it was Him who instructed the Israelites in their use of the sword but that did not mean that He agreed with it.

The Israelites had chosen to elect the sword among them after the Red Sea episode. Why did they do that? It was their lack of faith and yet they had just left Egypt unarmed. They did not have to fight the Egyptians. God had delivered them miraculously in righteousness. But the next day they picked up the Egyptian weapons that had washed to shore. The sad story is that they never left the sword after that and in the end they said, "We have no king but Ceasar." Even the disciples carried the sword. But in the garden Jesus said to Peter that he who picks up the sword will perish by the sword.

God in His mercy did not abandon the Israelites after they elected the sword to protect themselves from their enemies. In mercy He gave them instructions that were according to the choice they had made by their lack of faith that He was able to protect them without them having to fight. Therefore His instructions were given to limit the evil consequences of their evil choice. It was in mercy to their enemies that many of these instructions were given. For example, instead of taking ten lives for one life, ten eyes for one eye, they were to limit themselves to taking one eye for one eye, one life for one life.

But when Jesus walked among them He said that, If someone strikes you on the left cheek present the right cheek, etc etc. If someone takes your coat, give him also your shirt!

This was a revolutionary teaching. But Jesus was presenting God's ideal. He was presenting the way of the Father, not the way of the sword.

sky

But does this explain why God told them to kill everyone?

[Guest]

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:3

[Lutz13]

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:3

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me."(John 16:2-3)

[Twilight]

Jesus said that he who picks up the sword shall perish by the sword. He discouraged the sword. He was against it. And yet in it was Him who instructed the Israelites in their use of the sword but that did not mean that He agreed with it.

The Israelites had chosen to elect the sword among them after the Red Sea episode. Why did they do that? It was their lack of faith and yet they had just left Egypt unarmed. They did not have to fight the Egyptians. God had delivered them miraculously in righteousness. But the next day they picked up the Egyptian weapons that had washed to shore. The sad story is that they never left the sword after that and in the end they said, "We have no king but Ceasar." Even the disciples carried the sword. But in the garden Jesus said to Peter that he who picks up the sword will perish by the sword.

God in His mercy did not abandon the Israelites after they elected the sword to protect themselves from their enemies. In mercy He gave them instructions that were according to the choice they had made by their lack of faith that He was able to protect them without them having to fight. Therefore His instructions were given to limit the evil consequences of their evil choice. It was in mercy to their enemies that many of these instructions were given. For example, instead of taking ten lives for one life, ten eyes for one eye, they were to limit themselves to taking one eye for one eye, one life for one life.

But when Jesus walked among them He said that, If someone strikes you on the left cheek present the right cheek, etc etc. If someone takes your coat, give him also your shirt!

This was a revolutionary teaching. But Jesus was presenting God's ideal. He was presenting the way of the Father, not the way of the sword.

sky

The only problem with the above is that it does not account for this simple fact:

God ordered the Isrealites to kill the Amalekites Sky.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

1. God did not do the ordering, satan did.

It is dangerous to go down that road. God has shown me through experience.

This is just a theory, and I personally do not know for sure as like I had said earlier. I see through a dark glass.

There are two different versions here:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."(1 Chronicles 21:1)

I would really struggle with this option myself Lutz.

Mark

[Twilight]

You see, when I consider that God ultimately destroys the wicked, then all of this falls into place.

But when I consider that He does not, all of these incidences start to break scripture.

Mark

[Guest]

Imagine this.

Gunman walks into a school and starts shooting children.

Policeman shoots him.

Has he murdered?

Mark

No he did not commit murder. He saved lives.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Imagine this.

Gunman walks into a school and starts shooting children.

Policeman shoots him.

Has he murdered?

Mark

No he did not commit murder. He saved lives.

I agree Richard.

To say that love will not do anything actively to stop sin, just does not seem quite right.

Mark

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

No he did not commit murder. He saved lives.

I agree Richard.

To say that love will not do anything actively to stop sin' date=' just does not seem quite right.

Mark [/quote']

Ultimately here is the problem. Our minds are finite, and God is infinite. While we view killing children as a horrendous act. An act of adultery to God is just as bad.

It is like we often hear: "Is it ok to steal bread to provide for your family?" No it is never alright.

[Gail]

While we don't know the mind of God, neither do we know the length of the sinfulness of man's heart.

I'm enjoying the discussion! :)

[phkrause]

Very good points Twilight. I believe that the commandment says "You shall not murder" in the original Hebrew. So I think your point makes a lot of sense. Also when growing up as a teenager I remember either reading somewhere or maybe hearing in a sermon, that when God had promised the land of canaan to the Israelites he had already judged all the people in that area. Otherwise he would never have allowed all that killing. At least that's what I recall.

pk

[Stewart (SDA)]

For me a few thoughts come to mind reading through this thread...

There are many instances, I think, where God appears to initiate something, when in fact the initiation has come from man.

The sending of the 12 spies into Canaan is one example of this.

When we read the Book of Numbers on it's own (Num 13-14), it appears that God effectively "orders" Moses to send 12 spies into the land. Of course God foresaw the discouragement, the strife and death, that would result from this course of action. But still, He tells Moses to do it.

But in another place we find that the plan to send the 12 spies was proposed by the people, since they would not go up into the land, when God had told them to go up. (Deut 1:19-22)

He often worked with the people 'where they were at'.

He was often "limited" in what He was able to show His people, and do for them. (Ps 78:41 etc.)

But all of Israel's history is a lesser light, compared to the direct instruction given by the Son of God. The words of Jesus are a clearer, greater light, and it is primarily from Him that we are to "divide" and understand the character of God in all the things that happened in the Old Testament.

Let us never doubt that God has always loved His enemies [with an everlasting love], and that "Love works no ill to His neighbor".

Stewart.