God orders an execution...

[teresaq]

The only problem with the above is that it does not account for this simple fact:

God ordered the Isrealites to kill the Amalekites Sky.

Mark

[LifeHiscost]

And this is the reason I have an issue with the idea that God does not destroy.

Clearly, if we accept the biblical interpretation, He does condone destruction as the very last resort.

Mark

And considering my own circumstances, I'm extremely grateful it is His last resort.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:3

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me."(John 16:2-3)

"You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false."John 8:44 AMP

It would seem if kill is the proper word in the commandment and that is the proper word to use whenever a life is taken by another, then in this text above, it would properly say, "He was a killer from the beginning..."

What sayest thou?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Imagine this.

Gunman walks into a school and starts shooting children.

Policeman shoots him.

Has he murdered?

Mark

No he did not commit murder. He saved lives.

This is accepting that God sets up governing authorities to protect His people from the onslaught of evil in the world we live in, even to the point of death of those who choose the way of the sword as a lifestyle.

""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."Matthew 26:52 NIV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

For me a few thoughts come to mind reading through this thread...

There are many instances, I think, where God appears to initiate something, when in fact the initiation has come from man.

The sending of the 12 spies into Canaan is one example of this.

When we read the Book of Numbers on it's own (Num 13-14), it appears that God effectively "orders" Moses to send 12 spies into the land. Of course God foresaw the discouragement, the strife and death, that would result from this course of action. But still, He tells Moses to do it.

But in another place we find that the plan to send the 12 spies was proposed by the people, since they would not go up into the land, when God had told them to go up. (Deut 1:19-22)

He often worked with the people 'where they were at'.

He was often "limited" in what He was able to show His people, and do for them. (Ps 78:41 etc.)

But all of Israel's history is a lesser light, compared to the direct instruction given by the Son of God. The words of Jesus are a clearer, greater light, and it is primarily from Him that we are to "divide" and understand the character of God in all the things that happened in the Old Testament.

Let us never doubt that God has always loved His enemies [with an everlasting love], and that "Love works no ill to His neighbor".

Stewart.

I accept your point and it is a good point.

But how would you fit that to this situation.

It seems here that it is a very specific command of God, through His prophet, that the Amelakites be destroyed.

That is the difference here.

There is direct instruction through Samuel.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The only problem with the above is that it does not account for this simple fact:

God ordered the Isrealites to kill the Amalekites Sky.

Mark

Quote:

twilight wrote: God ordered King Saul and Isreal to wipe out a whole nation.

i ask again, mark,

did He?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

mark, did you notice this statement?

Quote:

They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan;

yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid.

"We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41.

but notice what the messenger of the Lord points out

Quote:

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression.

The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight."

It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

first i would like to point out that as many times as ive read this i still did not see it til it was pointed out in the context of these discussions.

so again, my brother, i ask you, did God order the israelites to go wipe out, or murder/kill, anyone?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

Hello Teresa :-)

When I consider this, I have to remember that God spoke through the Prophet Samuel and explicitly ordered this.

There are some cases where Isreal do things and it is attributed to God, I agree.

But in this instance, there is a specific command.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me."(John 16:2-3) [/quote']

"You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false."John 8:44 AMP

It would seem if kill is the proper word in the commandment and that is the proper word to use whenever a life is taken by another, then in this text above, it would properly say, "He was a killer from the beginning..."

What sayest thou?

An important point.

It is one thing to kill for ones own gain, (murder).

It is another to kill for the protection of others (neccesity).

Mark

[Lutz13]

An important point.

It is one thing to kill for ones own gain, (murder).

It is another to kill for the protection of others (neccesity).

Mark

Ahh! I'm sorry I couldn't let this go unnoticed. I'm hoping you would agree that in the time of trouble we aren't to take up arms to protect ourselves.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

An important point.

It is one thing to kill for ones own gain, (murder).

It is another to kill for the protection of others (neccesity).

Mark

Ahh! I'm sorry I couldn't let this go unnoticed. I'm hoping you would agree that in the time of trouble we aren't to take up arms to protect ourselves.

My vague understanding is that we will have angels protecting us and will not need to. :-)

[teresaq]

As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks.

Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation.... {6T 400.3}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

Quote:

twilight wrote: God ordered King Saul and Isreal to wipe out a whole nation.

i ask again' date=' mark,

did He?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

mark, did you notice this statement?

Quote:

They had distrusted the power of God to work with their efforts in gaining possession of Canaan;

yet now they presumed upon their own strength to accomplish the work independent of divine aid.

"We have sinned against the Lord," they cried; "we will go up and fight, according to all that the Lord our God commanded us." Deuteronomy 1:41.

but notice what the messenger of the Lord points out

Quote:

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression.

The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight."

It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

first i would like to point out that as many times as ive read this i still did not see it til it was pointed out in the context of these discussions.

so again, my brother, i ask you, did God order the israelites to go wipe out, or murder/kill, anyone?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

Hello Teresa :-)

When I consider this, I have to remember that God spoke through the Prophet Samuel and explicitly ordered this.

There are some cases where Isreal do things and it is attributed to God, I agree.

But in this instance, there is a specific command.

Mark :-) [/quote']are you taking into account that the "specific command" came after the people had decided to live by works instead of faith?

It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

psalm 78:22Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Quote:

7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)... 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

it is very possible that one of the reasons we will have to go through the time of trouble is to utterly kill every temptation to "go to war". there is no way we will be able to defend ourselves. the only choice we will have is to learn to trust in God utterly, or fall away.

Quote:

joel 3:2I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

2 chronicles 20:9If, when evil cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name is in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.

10And now, behold, the children of Ammon and Moab and mount Seir, whom thou wouldest not let Israel invade, when they came out of the land of Egypt, but they turned from them, and destroyed them not;

15And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the LORD unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. ...

17Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.

[skyblue888]

As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks.

Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation.... {6T 400.3}

Excellent quote Teresa. I had read it before but I had not seen it the way i see it now. Thank you.

This statement is a "still small voice" which should speak to us loudly!

Please allow me to take this discussion to the level of the battle or war that took place in Heaven. Did God use physical force to cast Lucifer out of Heaven?

Someone says: We know that Lucifer and his angels did not war with themselves and then kick themselves out of heaven.

Those who do not really believe that God's love is infinite and that He never changes by so much as a hair's breadth, will argue that there was a limit to His patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Their proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:

"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.

But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behavior as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.

The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.

It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.

Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.

As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Those who do not really believe that God's love is infinite and that He never changes by so much as a hair's breadth, will argue that there was a limit to His patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Their proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:

[Guest]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phl 2:5

[LifeHiscost]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phl 2:5

Excellent!

Hope you have a happy Sabbath, Richard, as I wish all who might read this greeting.

:Jesusfish:

[Guest]

Happy Sabbath to you also.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The only problem with the above is that it does not account for this simple fact:

God ordered the Isrealites to kill the Amalekites Sky.

Mark

Quote:

twilight wrote: God ordered King Saul and Isreal to wipe out a whole nation.

i ask again, mark,

did He?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

[Guest]

That was very enlightening. This wasn't your first Bible study was it.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ummmm...no.

More food for thought coming later...

[Kevin H]

And this is the reason I have an issue with the idea that God does not destroy.

Clearly, if we accept the biblical interpretation, He does condone destruction as the very last resort.

Mark

The problem with this issue is that there are different views on HOW does God destroy, and the critics instead of defending their view, lable those who have different views on how God distroys as falsely accusing them of teaching that God does not distroy. This is dishonest, but has become sanctioned by mainline Adventism.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

Quote:

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression.

The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight."

It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

first i would like to point out that as many times as ive read this i still did not see it til it was pointed out in the context of these discussions.

The verse is getting taken out of its context.

Deuteronomy 1:41, in the context of the entirety of the chapter, is Moses recounting to Israel their failure to have faith in the power of God when God specifically told them to go up and take possesion of Canaan.

Rather than listen to Joshua and Caleb, they chose to listen to the other ten spies, who told them of the impossibility of Israel to take the land due to the walled fortress cities and the size of the giants who lived there. As a result, God told them to return at that moment to the wilderness, until 40 years would pass. God specifically chided Israel in saying that the very children they feared would be slain by the giants would be the one to take and posses the land.

It was then they decided it was a good idea to go and try to take the land - outside of God's commandment.

Had they listened to Joshua and Caleb's faith in the power of God to take the land, they would have done so in complete obedience to God's commandment.

Now, lets add a little bit more of that context to the Patriarchs and Prophets text...

PP392.3f

"God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the ime of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time."

It isn't a question of works vs faith - it is a question of rebellion against the Lord's specific command they should have executed by faith, then compounding that rebellion by thinking they could say, "I'm sorry God" - I'll get right to it now. The punishment had already been pronounced, what would have been obedience a mere 24 hrs earlier now is bald-faced rebellion.

...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

As trials thicken around us, both separation and unity will be seen in our ranks.

Some who are now ready to take up weapons of warfare will in times of real peril make it manifest that they have not built upon the solid rock; they will yield to temptation.... {6T 400.3}

Excellent quote Teresa. I had read it before but I had not seen it the way i see it now. Thank you.

This statement is a "still small voice" which should speak to us loudly!

Please allow me to take this discussion to the level of the battle or war that took place in Heaven. Did God use physical force to cast Lucifer out of Heaven?

Someone says: We know that Lucifer and his angels did not war with themselves and then kick themselves out of heaven.

Those who do not really believe that God's love is infinite and that He never changes by so much as a hair's breadth, will argue that there was a limit to His patience and when that was exhausted with Lucifer, He turned to active warfare to run him out of Heaven. Their proof text is Revelation 12:7-9:

"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.

But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behavior as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.

The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.

It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.

Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.

As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

sky

that was very well put and understandable. it made a lot of sense to me. :)

[LifeHiscost]

God's work is the same in all time, although there are different degrees of development and different manifestations of His power, to meet the wants of men in the different ages. Beginning with the first gospel promise, and coming down through the patriarchal and Jewish ages, and even to the present time, there has been a gradual unfolding of the purposes of God in the plan of redemption. The Saviour typified in the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law is the very same that is revealed in the gospel. The clouds that enveloped His divine form have rolled back; the mists and shades have disappeared; and Jesus, the world's Redeemer, stands revealed. He who proclaimed the law from Sinai, and delivered to Moses the precepts of the ritual law, is the same that spoke the Sermon on the Mount. The great principles of love to God, which He set forth as the foundation of the law and the prophets, are only a reiteration of what He had spoken through Moses to the Hebrew people: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4, 5. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18. The teacher is the same in both dispensations. God's claims are the same. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17. {PP 373.2}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

Quote:

So terribly blinded had they become by transgression.

The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight."

It was not His purpose

that they should gain the land by warfare,

but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3}

first i would like to point out that as many times as ive read this i still did not see it til it was pointed out in the context of these discussions.

so again, my brother, i ask you, did God order the israelites to go wipe out, or murder/kill, anyone?

or had the people decided to live by works instead of faith?

"God had made it their privilege and their duty to enter the land at the ime of His appointment, but through their willful neglect that permission had been withdrawn. Satan had gained his object in preventing them from entering Canaan; and now he urged them on to do the very thing, in the face of divine prohibition, which they had refused to do when God required it. Thus the great deceiver gained the victory by leading them to rebellion the second time."

It isn't a question of works vs faith - it is a question of rebellion against the Lord's specific command they should have executed by faith, then compounding that rebellion by thinking they could say, "I'm sorry God" - I'll get right to it now. The punishment had already been pronounced, what would have been obedience a mere 24 hrs earlier now is bald-faced rebellion.

[teresaq]