The Prince of Tyrus - who or what is he?

[Twilight]

Just as the ministers and leading men of all the churches who will have apostatized from the truth in these last days will fall at the hand of those whom they had deceived, so will Satan and his angels, the real ministers of iniquity, fall and die at the hand of the most terrible of the nations after the 1000 years at the time of the executive judgement. Since the fall Satan and his angels have been standing toward the sinner as the executioners of the sentence against transgression but now it will be the turn of the unsaved of all ages to become the executioners of the sentence against Satan and his angels.

Mark, Holy Writ could not be any clearer, Satan will die in the midst of the nations who will turn upon him. This fact cannot be controverted.

sky

Yes he will die in the midst of the nations.

Because God calls fire out from the midst of him.

It is who destroys Satan that is the question.

Not the location.

Not who is present.

You are using the description of the destruction of the "man of sin", to describe the destruction of Satan.

I have not found one instance in the whole of the SOP where this idea you have received is presented.

Not one statement Sky?

Do you not think that strange?

Yet I find many describing how God destroys Satan.

Forgive me my friend but look at it like this:

Statements that state man destroys Satan: None

Statements that state God destroys Satan: Lots

So I cannot see how you would expect anyone to accept this truth?

Once the verses of Eze 28 are layed out in their correct order.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Letting the Bible interpret itself!

I don't think so Mark. What I see in your posts is an effort to make your preconceived idea to hold in the face of a clear Thus saith the Lord that Satan will die at the hand of aliens, at the hand of the multitudes of the wicked at the end of the thousand years as they will turn upon him with the fury of demons just as we are told that the false shepherds will fall at the hand of those whom they will have deceived at the time of the sixth plague. It is written that they will use fire to destroy them. We don't know for sure what kind of fire anymore than we know what kind of fire will be used to bring Satan and his angels down. But down they will go never to rise again, not at the hand of God but at the hand of aliens as the Bible clearly says. Even God Himself says, "I will bring strangers against thee, the most terrible of the nations, and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas."

These words, as Mrs. White clearly stated, refer primarily to Lucifer, don't forget that!!!

sky

[Twilight]

Letting the Bible interpret itself!

I don't think so Mark. What I see in your posts is an effort to make your preconceived idea to hold in the face of a clear Thus saith the Lord that Satan will die at the hand of aliens, at the hand of the multitudes of the wicked at the end of the thousand years as they will turn upon him with the fury of demons just as we are told that the false shepherds will fall at the hand of those whom they will have deceived at the time of the sixth plague. It is written that they will use fire to destroy them. We don't know for sure what kind of fire anymore than we know what kind of fire will be used to bring Satan and his angels down. But down they will go never to rise again, not at the hand of God but at the hand of aliens as the Bible clearly says. Even God Himself says, "I will bring strangers against thee, the most terrible of the nations, and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas."

These words, as Mrs. White clearly stated, refer primarily to Lucifer, don't forget that!!!

sky

I have established above the reasons for my position, from the Bible.

Can you give just one simple statement that says Satan is destroyed at the hands of man from the SOP.

God bless,

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Letting the Bible interpret itself!

... Even God Himself says, "I will bring strangers against thee, the most terrible of the nations, and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas."

I have established above the reasons for my position, from the Bible.

Can you give just one simple statement that says Satan is destroyed at the hands of man from the SOP.

wow!

i have given it and it appears to have been rejected. we need to keep in mind that ellen white only brings out bible texts, but never goes against them.

His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {DD 59.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." ...." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {DD 59.2}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." .... {DD 59.3} but i guess when we are used to seeing things one way it can be very hard to see the possibility of another way being the truth. :)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have established above the reasons for my position, from the Bible.

Can you give just one simple statement that says Satan is destroyed at the hands of man from the SOP. [/quote']wow!

i have given it and it appears to have been rejected. we need to keep in mind that ellen white only brings out bible texts, but never goes against them.

His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {DD 59.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." ...." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {DD 59.2}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." .... {DD 59.3} but i guess when we are used to seeing things one way it can be very hard to see the possibility of another way being the truth.

Thanks teresa. How can anyone read these passages from the Bible and these statements from the SoP and still not see it is a mavel to me.

Unless we are becoming more and more like Pharaoh of old who closed his eyes to the light and as a result sowed the seeds of unbelief and obstinacy only to reap what he had sown, unbelief and obstinacy, until it was night in the soul.

"What Pharoah has done, will be done again and again by men until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stifles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing unbelief and will reap as he has sown." RH Vol.6, p.285.

sky

[Guest]

Unless we are becoming more and more like Pharaoh of old who closed his eyes to the light and as a result sowed the seeds of unbelief and obstinacy only to reap what he had sown, unbelief and obstinacy, until it was night in the soul.

I think you're on to something there sky. Open your eyes and look at the case Mark has presented. It makes perfect sense. How can Satan be destroyed by people if he is the last one to be destroyed? There's only one way. God has to do it, just like he said he would.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue

Unless we are becoming more and more like Pharaoh of old who closed his eyes to the light and as a result sowed the seeds of unbelief and obstinacy only to reap what he had sown, unbelief and obstinacy, until it was night in the soul.

I think you're on to something there sky. Open your eyes and look at the case Mark has presented. It makes perfect sense. How can Satan be destroyed by people if he is the last one to be destroyed? There's only one way. God has to do it, just like he said he would.

_________________________________________________________________

The fact that Satan will be the last one to fall does not prove that God will have to finish him up. That would make Him the executioner of the sentence against him. We may be sure that that won't happen because God has put Himself on record that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. Satan is not immortal. He will finally succomb from the blows he will have received at the hand of those who will have turned upon him with the fury of demons. Remember, he was a magnificient being and he became the incarnation of evil. The more evil you are the more you fight to stay alive.

However, like I have said before, the reason why we tend to stick to our traditional understanding of this topic is because we refuse to interpret the language of the Bible according to God's revealed principles of His dealing with sin, which are ever the same, and that is that He is neither the accuser, the prosecutor, or the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Satan is. But in the end the measure that Satan will have used to inflict suffering upon the human race for their transgression of the law of God will be used against him as the Bible says. He will then get a taste of his own medicine, if you will, and I would not want to be in his shoes in that day. I don't think anyone would.

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I think you're on to something there sky. Open your eyes and look at the case Mark has presented. It makes perfect sense. How can Satan be destroyed by people if he is the last one to be destroyed? There's only one way. God has to do it, just like he said he would. [/quote']

_________________________________________________________________

The fact that Satan will be the last one to fall does not prove that God will have to finish him up. That would make Him the executioner of the sentence against him. We may be sure that that won't happen because God has put Himself on record that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. Satan is not immortal. He will finally succomb from the blows he will have received at the hand of those who will have turned upon him with the fury of demons. Remember, he was a magnificient being and he became the incarnation of evil. The more evil you are the more you fight to stay alive.

However, like I have said before, the reason why we tend to stick to our traditional understanding of this topic is because we refuse to interpret the language of the Bible according to God's revealed principles of His dealing with sin, which are ever the same, and that is that He is neither the accuser, the prosecutor, or the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Satan is. But in the end the measure that Satan will have used to inflict suffering upon the human race for their transgression of the law of God will be used against him as the Bible says. He will then get a taste of his own medicine, if you will, and I would not want to be in his shoes in that day. I don't think anyone would.

sky

its a "new" tradition in the adventist church, sky.

[skyblue888]

new wine you mean, teresa? :)

[Twilight]

The point you are not addressing Sky, is this simple one.

Eze 28:2-10 clearly refers to the man of sin.

Ellen White states that this prophecy is fulfilled on the man of sin.

Can you accept this?

Mark

[teresaq]

The point you are not addressing Sky, is this simple one.

Eze 28:2-10 clearly refers to the man of sin.

Ellen White states that this prophecy is fulfilled on the man of sin.

Can you accept this?

[Guest]

And the very next paragraph says:

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. {DD 59}

She plainly says where the fire comes from, why is that so hard to believe.

[teresaq]

so is this:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

and this:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"why is that so hard to believe."

[Guest]

What is it you are trying to say.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The point you are not addressing Sky, is this simple one.

Eze 28:2-10 clearly refers to the man of sin.

Ellen White states that this prophecy is fulfilled on the man of sin.

Can you accept this?

she also applies it to satan at the third coming.

Quote:

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {DD 59.2}

"Can you accept this?" :smile:

What I have noticed here is a collection of bible quotes.

Then after this comes the commentary.

When you read the commentary directly following these quotes, we can see that Satan is destroyed by God calling fire out of the midst of Satan.

It is very specific.

Now can YOU accept that Teresa? :-)

[Twilight]

so is this:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

and this:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"why is that so hard to believe."

No one is disagreeing with that Teresa.

What people are disagreeing with, is trying to state that this principle is the foundational principle of Gods Character when dealing with this issue.

That this is the ONLY way we can view Gods judgement.

That is the claim being made and refuted.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

she also applies it to satan at the third coming.

Quote:

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {DD 59.2}

"Can you accept this?" :smile: [/quote']

What I have noticed here is a collection of bible quotes.

Then after this comes the commentary....

Now can YOU accept that Teresa? :-)

lets deal with what was said in the post please. :smile:

you are saying that exekiel 28:1-10 does not apply to satan but the man of sin. you have said that ellen white is very clear regarding that.

several times now i have shown that she specifically applies that passage to satan also.

you asked sky if he could accept that, according to your understanding, that passage applies only to the man of sin.

i then asked you if you could accept that ellen white applies that passage to satan also.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

so is this:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

and this:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"why is that so hard to believe."

No one is disagreeing with that Teresa.

im confused. are you saying you believe that God hardened pharoahs heart and in predestination?

[Twilight]

Just to clarify Teresa. :-)

I think we should take the Bible, let it interpret itself.

Then consider all Ellen White has to say on any sections.

Then come to our conclusions.

I do not think we should take a statement from Ellen White.

Form a fixed idea.

Then figure out how to get the bible to fit that idea. :-)

Mark

[Guest]

You're right Mark. That's how we are supposed to do it.

[Twilight]

You're right Mark. That's how we are supposed to do it.

But I am blind for doing this apparently... :-)

Spiritual blindness being the charge layed.

[Guest]

It has gotten to the point where someone is implying that we will be lost if we don't see it his way. I never thought they would go that far.

[Guest]

What they don't realize Mark is that there is a limit to how far God will let sin go on. It's not that his character changes, but when that time comes, his role changes. He is no longer the mediator.

The One who has stood as our Intercessor; who hears all penitential prayers and confessions; who is represented with a rainbow, the symbol of grace and love, encircling His head, is soon to cease His work in the heavenly sanctuary. Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. He for whom His people have looked will assume His right--the office of Supreme Judge.--RH Jan. 1, 1889. {LDE 240.3}

[skyblue888]

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." G.C.672.

It is not possible for anyone to have these words misconstrued or misintepreted in any way, shape, or form. It is plainly written that there will come a time when the wicked will see that their case is hopeless and their rage will be kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they will turn upon them and they will bring them down to the pit to die in the midst of the "seas" and to be no more.

I really don't know how anyone can read these words above and still not see what inspiration describes as a physical confrontation between those of all ages who will have been deceived and the great deceiver and his agents in deception.

The Fall of Lucifer

12 “How you are fallen from heaven,

O Lucifer, son of the morning!

How you are cut down to the ground,

You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart:

‘I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.’

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,

To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,

And consider you, saying:

‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,

Who shook kingdoms,

17 Who made the world as a wilderness

And destroyed its cities,

Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

18 “ All the kings of the nations,

All of them, sleep in glory,

Everyone in his own house;

19 But you are cast out of your grave

Like an abominable branch,

Like the garment of those who are slain,

Thrust through with a sword,

Who go down to the stones of the pit,

Like a corpse trodden underfoot.

20 You will not be joined with them in burial,

Because you have destroyed your land

And slain your people.

The brood of evildoers shall never be named." Isaiah 14:12-20.

Ezekiel takes up the strain and says,

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God,

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of God,

7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,

The most terrible of the nations;

And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,

And defile your splendor.

8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,

And you shall die the death of the slain

In the midst of the seas.

9 “Will you still say before him who slays you,

‘ I am God’?

But you shall be a man, and not God,

In the hand of him who slays you.

10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised

By the hand of aliens;

For I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’”

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:

“You were the seal of perfection,

Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

Every precious stone was your covering:

The sardius, topaz, and diamond,

Beryl, onyx, and jasper,

Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.

The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes

Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;

I established you;

You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,

Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “ By the abundance of your trading

You became filled with violence within,

And you sinned;

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing

Out of the mountain of God;

And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

I cast you to the ground,

I laid you before kings,

That they might gaze at you.

18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries

By the multitude of your iniquities,

By the iniquity of your trading;

Therefore I brought fire from your midst;

It devoured you,

And I turned you to ashes upon the earth

In the sight of all who saw you.

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;

You have become a horror,

And shall be no more forever.”’” Ezekiel 28:6-19.

"This angel whom God had created, and entrusted with power, became desirous of being as God." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.153.

How could anyone carefully read these two accounts and the commentaries from the SOP and then declare that all these verses do not apply primarily to Lucifer, the covering cherub, is beyond fathoming. It is totally dishonest on the part of anyone to make such a claim.

In these chapters the Lord says that He will destroy Lucifer, that He will bring him down to the pit and in these same chapters He also tells us how. After the 1000 years He will bring back to life all the unsaved of all ages (strangers, aliens) and the time will come when these will turn upon Satan and his agents in deception with the fury of demons. This is how the Lord will bring Satan and his evil angels down to the pit. He will not interfere when the terrible of the nations shall turn upon them with the fury of demons bo bring them down to the pit and Satan and his brood of evildoers shall be no more. Oh yes Satan will somehow manage to continue to suffer longer but that should not be used to make the Scriptures of none effect as if to say that he will not fall by the hand of strangers after all. No the word of God cannot be broken. Satan will fall at the hand of aliens as the Bible has so declared and if we refuse to accept this clear testimony of the Scriptures we will be making God a liar.

"He who does not believe God has made Him a liar." 1 John 5:10.

sky

[Guest]

Sky we know that their rage is kindled against Satan and they turn on him. But no matter how many times you post that quote, it still dosn't say they are able to kill Satan.

I don't see how anybody could read all the quotes and Bible texts that say God is the one that desroys Satan and sin, and still say that he dosn't.