The Prince of Tyrus - who or what is he?

[skyblue888]

Then you are making God a liar, Richard, because in His word He clearly says that He will bring strangers against him and that they will bring him down to the pit and that he will die in the midst of the seas. The "seas" represent the wicked of all ages.

There is no way around this.

sky

[Guest]

Before the worlds unfallen and the heavenly universe, the world will have to give an account to the Judge of the whole earth, the very One they condemned and crucified. What a reckoning day that will be! It is the great day of God's vengeance. Christ does not then stand at Pilate's bar. Pilate and Herod, and all that mocked, scourged, rejected, and crucified Him will then understand what it means to feel the wrath of the Lamb. {TM 132}

It dosn't sound to me like one who has come to say: Okay I will now allow you to commit suicide, because I love you too much to do it. And while you're at it, cleanse my creation with your fire.

[teresaq]

It has gotten to the point where someone is implying that we will be lost if we don't see it his way. I never thought they would go that far.

for that i do sincerely apologize!!

none of us has the right to imply anything about anothers heart.

i can understand that there are honest reservations about this "message" and judging another who is opposing it is counter productive at the least, and not what God would have us do.

it seems that since there are ungodly accusations coming from both sides that perhaps this particular topic should be allowed to rest for awhile.

[Twilight]

What they don't realize Mark is that there is a limit to how far God will let sin go on. It's not that his character changes, but when that time comes, his role changes. He is no longer the mediator.

The One who has stood as our Intercessor; who hears all penitential prayers and confessions; who is represented with a rainbow, the symbol of grace and love, encircling His head, is soon to cease His work in the heavenly sanctuary. Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. He for whom His people have looked will assume His right--the office of Supreme Judge.--RH Jan. 1, 1889. {LDE 240.3}

I appreciate this quote.

[Twilight]

Then you are making God a liar, Richard, because in His word He clearly says that He will bring strangers against him and that they will bring him down to the pit and that he will die in the midst of the seas. The "seas" represent the wicked of all ages.

There is no way around this.

sky

Please read my posts again Sky.

Using the principle of Bible to expound the Bible first.

Then SOP to commentate on that Bible.

The view you are presenting cannot be substantiated.

Eze 28: 2-10 relate to Revelation 17.

Then the next section refers specifically to Satan.

Then the last of Eze 28 has nothing to do with either groups, have you considered that? (Understanding that will help us to understand SOP when it says "Ezekiel 28 deals primarily with Satan". That does note mean every verse. It means that is the main focus that Ezekiel 28 engenders, Satan and his activity. Not every verse applies to him, even 28:2-10 are attributed by SOP to the "man of sin" specifically and to Satan through the agency of the "man of sin".

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It has gotten to the point where someone is implying that we will be lost if we don't see it his way. I never thought they would go that far.

for that i do sincerely apologize!!

none of us has the right to imply anything about anothers heart.

i can understand that there are honest reservations about this "message" and judging another who is opposing it is counter productive at the least, and not what God would have us do.

it seems that since there are ungodly accusations coming from both sides that perhaps this particular topic should be allowed to rest for awhile.

I too find it extremely offensive when someone implies spiritual blindness on a point of disagreement.

When we consider this subject is not "plain as day", to imply that another will not be "saved" because they are rejecting light is always going to arouse hurt.

But it causes me to look back on my own activity in the past, when I have done this very thing and it has humbled me.

At times I have treated Redwood in this manner, it matters not whether he is right or wrong, I should never have done it.

I hope he sees this.

I hope the Lord can remove all spiritual pride from all of us, so that we do not condemn when someone disagrees.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Then you are making God a liar, Richard, because in His word He clearly says that He will bring strangers against him and that they will bring him down to the pit and that he will die in the midst of the seas. The "seas" represent the wicked of all ages.

There is no way around this.

sky

...Not every verse applies to him, even 28:2-10 are attributed by SOP to the "man of sin" specifically and to Satan through the agency of the "man of sin".

Mark

[Twilight]

Consider this very carefully Teresa.

I had to take my time with this quote:

(Remembering the bible interprets itself before we apply SOP).

But here is something to consider:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}

Please note the emphasis above is not on just "Satan".

It is on "Satan and those".

It is on "They turn upon them".

So included in this opening statement is the "man of sin".

Then we have a conglomeration of texts that refer to "Satan" and "the man of sin":

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

So we have the above texts quoted about "Satan" and "the man of sin".

At no time does Ellen White state which deals with which or that all deal with Satan.

That we have to decide from the Bible ourselves.

It is only when we try to apply the above quotes to "Satan" that we get ourselves mixed up.

The context does not allow this usage.

The following section is then in the same context of "Satan" and "the man of sin", if we follow on from the context.

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire."Then are fulfilled the words of the prophet: "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter."... [isaiah 34:2.] {4SP 487.2}

So she does NOT apply this to Satan individually.

This is a misreading and is not taking the context correctly.

This quote does not justify the belief that man kills Satan by any stretch of the imagination.

Because it is not applying "just" to Satan.

God bless,

Mark

[teresaq]

...

I hope the Lord can remove all spiritual pride from all of us, so that we do not condemn when someone disagrees.

i try to watch my temper and words, but am sure i fail quite often in behaving as Christ never failed to do.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

...

I hope the Lord can remove all spiritual pride from all of us, so that we do not condemn when someone disagrees.

i try to watch my temper and words, but am sure i fail quite often in behaving as Christ never failed to do.

Me too sister. :-)

[teresaq]

im sorry my brother, your reasoning isnt making any sense to me.

i will have to stick with the way ellen white presented it.

[Guest]

And this is what she saw:

But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[teresaq]

And this is what she saw:

But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[skyblue888]

The pen of inspiration tells us that we need every ray of light that God sends in order to be the light of the world. Satan casts his shadow across the pathway to intercept every ray of heavenly light. God put Himself on record stating that "He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

No amount of human reasoning is ever going to change this amazing fact. Whether we like it or not, this is the foundation principle for establishing the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin.

If we would believe this implicitly, there would be no difficulty understanding the language of the Bible and the character of God would be vindicated. This statement alone, if accepted by faith, is illuminating in its influence and saving in its power, for to know God aright is eternal life!

If we reject this revealed principle as the foundation for the study of the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin, we will never know the truth and we will lose our eternal life. This is what happened to the Jewish people and Holy Writ clearly says that these things happened unto them as an example to us who are living in the last days of this earth's history. In fact we are repeating their history to the very letter!

sky

[skyblue888]

When God Himself through the prophets (Isaiah and Ezekiel) declares that Satan will fall and die by the hand of the most terrible of the nations after the 1000 years, there is nothing "murky" or "vague" about an oracle such as that. It is as clear as crystal, as clear a declaration as the Lord Himself can make it. If we teach anything contrary to this plain declaration, we are no longer speaking as the oracles of God and we will have to give an account to God for adding to His word. Nothing can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. Unless we become as little children and sit at the feet of Jesus to be taught of Him, and consent for Him to empty us of all that is of self, we cannot know God as it is our privilege to know Him.

sky

"However high any minister may have stood in the favor of God, if he neglects to follow out the light given him of God, it he refuses to be taught as a little child, he will go on into darkness and satanic delusions and will lead others in the same path." 5 T 214.

[Twilight]

The pen of inspiration tells us that we need every ray of light that God sends in order to be the light of the world. Satan casts his shadow across the pathway to intercept every ray of heavenly light. God put Himself on record stating that "He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

No amount of human reasoning is ever going to change this amazing fact. Whether we like it or not, this is the foundation principle for establishing the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin.

If we would believe this implicitly, there would be no difficulty understanding the language of the Bible and the character of God would be vindicated. This statement alone, if accepted by faith, is illuminating in its influence and saving in its power, for to know God aright is eternal life!

If we reject this revealed principle as the foundation for the study of the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin, we will never know the truth and we will lose our eternal life. This is what happened to the Jewish people and Holy Writ clearly says that these things happened unto them as an example to us who are living in the last days of this earth's history. In fact we are repeating their history to the very letter!

sky

God put Himself on record stating that "[color:#000066]He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

No amount of human reasoning is ever going to change this amazing fact.

As I have stated all along Sky, you have set this as the foundational principle to "judge" Gods character by.

I think you are in error doing this.

Because of the other principles that also need to be considered.

Ellen White did not express just this principle.

She never taught that Satan was destroyed by man.

Not once. Unless you have a quote I do not know about.

Taking this principle and not allowing it to be examined in the light of other principles, will mean that you cannot allow anything other than this statement to be the truth.

You have made this the central charater trait of Gods dealing with the wicked, ignoring all those other plain statements that would give this context.

That is what I am seeing.

Lord forgive me if I am wrong.

God bless,

Mark

[Twilight]

When God Himself through the prophets (Isaiah and Ezekiel) declares that Satan will fall and die by the hand of the most terrible of the nations after the 1000 years, there is nothing "murky" or "vague" about an oracle such as that. It is as clear as crystal, as clear a declaration as the Lord Himself can make it. If we teach anything contrary to this plain declaration, we are no longer speaking as the oracles of God and we will have to give an account to God for adding to His word. Nothing can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. Unless we become as little children and sit at the feet of Jesus to be taught of Him, and consent for Him to empty us of all that is of self, we cannot know God as it is our privilege to know Him.

sky

"However high any minister may have stood in the favor of God, if he neglects to follow out the light given him of God, it he refuses to be taught as a little child, he will go on into darkness and satanic delusions and will lead others in the same path." 5 T 214.

Sky, the quote you have pasted on the end reveals a spirit in this matter that is not correct.

You are inferring that those that do not agree are going to be lost.

You must not do this my friend.

It is sin.

It has deeply grieved and saddened my heart to see you display this spirit.

It diminishes the beautiful work you have been given to do in presenting the merits of Christ.

God forgive us all our un-Christlike spirits.

I could weep brother.

Mark :-(

[Bethlehem]

I have been looking at an old thread about the Prince of Tyrus and have been impressed by the sheer enthusiasm of Twilight, Richard, Sky and others but I feel one does not get very far by throwing biblical text at each other so I decided to respond.

Before the fall of our world from spirit into matter, there were a number of divine potentates (leaders) who administered to this world. These included the Prince of Tyre, Prince of Zidonia and Lucifer the brightest Angel of our seventh sphere. They were all part of our planetary hierarchy and all their spiritual planes were in a state of Eden. The Prince of Tyre was in charge of what came to be known as the occult plane.

The betrayer (a minor god)came and tricked these potentates into changing the atmospheres and gravity so that fixed forms could be made. Lucifer gets the blame as he was in charge of gravity and atmospheres on the outermost sphere of our world.

Incidently it is the betrayer who has created the evil forms, such as the Saurians, not the Father Mother.

The King of Tyrus, Hiram/Huram, helped to build Soloman's Temple but the surprise is that it was not a building at all. The ancient mysteries have all been given a human slant by the Jewish writers of the Old Testament.

The real Soloman's Temple was the gradual development, before the fall, of the planetary household into high Christ-like conciousness. Sadly the fall prevented the completion of the Temple of Soloman.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Love and Blessings

Bethlehem

[skyblue888]

Sorry brother, but I am afraid it does not!

What is this? new age teaching?

sky :)

[Textus Receptus]

I have been looking at an old thread about the Prince of Tyrus and have been impressed by the sheer enthusiasm of Twilight, Richard, Sky and others but I feel one does not get very far by throwing biblical text at each other so I decided to respond.

Before the fall of our world from spirit into matter, there were a number of divine potentates (leaders) who administered to this world. These included the Prince of Tyre, Prince of Zidonia and Lucifer the brightest Angel of our seventh sphere. They were all part of our planetary hierarchy and all their spiritual planes were in a state of Eden. The Prince of Tyre was in charge of what came to be known as the occult plane.

The betrayer (a minor god)came and tricked these potentates into changing the atmospheres and gravity so that fixed forms could be made. Lucifer gets the blame as he was in charge of gravity and atmospheres on the outermost sphere of our world.

Incidently it is the betrayer who has created the evil forms, such as the Saurians, not the Father Mother.

The King of Tyrus, Hiram/Huram, helped to build Soloman's Temple but the surprise is that it was not a building at all. The ancient mysteries have all been given a human slant by the Jewish writers of the Old Testament.

The real Soloman's Temple was the gradual development, before the fall, of the planetary household into high Christ-like conciousness. Sadly the fall prevented the completion of the Temple of Soloman.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Love and Blessings

Bethlehem

Looks like a mixture of Kabalisim and Theosophy.

[Bethlehem]

Hi Sky,

Originally, Twilight pondered who/what the Prince of Tyrus was or is and I have tried to answer as the thread gradually degenerated into a slanging match. As I said earlier, I appreciated the passion of you guys. Not many people get excited over the Prince of Tyrus!

These unfoldings are celestial mysteries and will either resonate with you...or they will not.

The source is 'Ezekiel A Cosmic Drama.'

It is neither Kabalism nor theosophy. But it is very holy.

Love and Blessings

Bethlehem

[miz3]

To everyone,

I have just finished reading this question from beginning to end. Yes, I even read Bethlehem's post.

At this point what amazes me is that we have dueling Ellen White statements and what are asserted Principles from SOP. I find this amazing.

No wonder the SDA Church is in such disarray and confusion about what it believes.

We have the "official" Church versions, then we have various different groups of "scholars" and their versions, then we have the "amateur" Bible and SOP studiers, then we have most of the other SDA pew sitters who are not really paying attention who think they can tell you what they believe but when pressed are easily confused.

Then there are some who say we go to the Bible and then hunt for SOP backing and these are often very selective about their acceptance of SOP statements.

Then we have most SDA starting with the "official" version of what is believed. then these same ones read, study, and look at SOP to get the backing for this view, and finally they look at scripture and bend, twist, rework, infer, conceptualize, imply, etc. into the text or texts so that these texts fit what they believe SOP says.

Even the SDA pros (the scholars and even some of the "officialdom") don't all agree. In fact SDA history is littered with changes and new ways to defend the "pillars".

This discussion on Ezekiel chapter 28 is a "classic" example of how SDA use the cherished and "inspired" Prophet. She is used as a "club" to bludgeon each other into submission. Yet I am told over and over again that Ellen White is to used to make the Bible clear to us. Yet there is confusion as to what even she means when she speaks.

What an amazing example of "God's People"! What an amazing example of what the Truth is! I am not talking about the personal attacks. I am talking about the usage of Ellen White, the SOP!

Can God be pleased?!

[skyblue888]

Rob, you forget that we are all exposed to temptation and liable to error. Upon no finite being can we depend for guidance but we have the Word of God and the Testimonies of His Spirit and the key to understand the messages given in the Bible and the Testimonies is that Scripture is explained by Scripture and the Testimonies are explained by the Testimonies.

The Bible and the Testimonies are clear as to who the prince of Tyrus represents. A casual reading of Isaiah 14:12-20 with Ezekiel 28:1-19 reveals that all these verses are talking about the rising and fall of Lucifer. This is the primary application. But there is a secondary applicattion. It also refers to a general movement which we shall witness.

"I ask our people to study the twenty-eighth chapter of Ezekiel. The representation here made, while it refers primarily to Lucifer, the fallen angel, has yet a broader significance. Not one being, but a general movement, is described, and one that we shall witness." Testimonies, Series B, No.17, p.30.

And in the book The Great Controversy, p.672, second paragraph, Mrs. White quotes Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19 and applies these verses to Lucifer.

There was no confusion in her mind as to what these chapters are referring to.

THIS HISTORY A PERPETUAL SAFEGUARD.--Eze 28:1-26 quoted: The first sinner was one whom God had greatly exalted. He is represented under the figure of the prince of Tyrus flourishing in might and magnificience. Little by little Satan came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. The Scripture says, 'Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness,' 'Thou hast said in thine heart,... I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; ... I will be like the Most High.'" MS 125,1907.

So there is no confusion here, not in Scriptures, not in the Testimonies of the Spirit of God, and therefore no need for us to be confused as to who is referred to in these verses.

But don't forget that these verses have also a broader significance, that they also refer to a general movement, one that we shall witness here on earth before the second coming of Christ.

sky

[miz3]

Does or does not Ellen White say that the whole thing in Ezekiel is about Lucifer or not?

Does Ellen White say whether Lucifer is destroyed by God alone, or Lucifer is destroyed by the evil, lost humans alone, or is Lucifer destroyed by both.

It has to be one the three there are no other possibilities left. What does the Spirit of Prophecy actually say on this?

I would like to know! This sounds interesting.