5 ways to keep a Scientist out of our Church.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Science and Christianity are not incompatible.

Science and relilgion may be incompatible.

In some academic circles, man's concept of science IS the religion.

True science and faith in Christ are not incompatible - in fact, the are quite complimentary to each other.

Science is of the Devil, they say???

Tell that to Isaac Newton, who opened a whole field of physics, and whose proposed physic laws still apply to most practical applications in the world today.

He was a theologian and devoted Christian as well.

Christian faith is Anti-intellectual, they say?? Poppycock! If that were true, anyone with a high school education and beyond loses out on heaven.

Who is it who determines what is grounds for intelligence? Belief in the "proper" science creeds? IQ? There's much pride and hubris in the "anti-intellectual" slap...

Being a scientist myself - who just happens to believe the Creation account is more credible than man's counter-explanations, it helps to brush away the rhetoric...on both sides.

Nothing gives a scientist something practical to depend upon like the living demonstration of the power of God's Word, alive and doing the impossible in the lives of believers. When they experience this themselves, they find all the empirical evidence they need to continue with God.

I know - because that's my personal testimony and history...

[Ted Oplinger]

You make some good points Shane. I think what most don't want is Religion be taught, and so they equate (sp) believing in creation as teaching religion.

pk

At least, that's how they frame the argument, pk.

Same with the Intelligent Design scientists - this field of endeavor is simply called "back door Creationism" by academics unwilling to intelligently consider the merits of these scientific models...in spite of the fact that among the Intelligent Design ranks are a not-insignificant number of non-Christians and non-religionists.

[Stan]

I still believe, that given time and research, science will support creation and will support the keeping of the Sabbath because of that.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: olger

I was in the Ohio State championship for the Science fair in 1974. God saved me from a life of science, and possibly a life of systematic unbelief in April of 1974.

Praise Him,

oG

With the church filled with such people it is a wonder that there is a denomination left

I see your point.

[phkrause]

Ted have you read the book by Ariel A. Roth "Science Discovers God"? If not take a look at it. We are reading and discussing it in our SS class.

pk

[olger]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

With the church filled with such people it is a wonder that there is a denomination left[/quote']

I see your point.

Point good.

og out

[olger]

Another way to limit scientists is to have them empty the trash. Or we can tie their shoelaces together, that always worked for me.

[Ron Lambert]

Stan, tolerance is one thing. Accommodation and failure to insist upon maintaining the foundation of our faith are something else.

Those who believe in evolution cannot be Seventh-day Adventists. Not only does evolution destroy the reliability and authority of the Bible, it also destroys the gospel. If there were no first Adam, how could there be a New Adam? If Genesis is not true, then why do we need a Saviour?

Sooner or later, all teachers at our universities and other schools who espouse evolution must be fired. Otherwise those institutions will be lost to the SDA Church. This is the same situation the church faced at the turn of the 20th century, when the subtle pantheism of Kellogg almost subverted the church, and did carry away many doctors and other medical people. We had a living prophet with us then, and still catastrophe was barely averted. The decision not to publish Kellogg's book on the denominational presses with the same binding and cover as the Spirit of Prophecy books, was made by only a one vote margin. Then it was decided to publish Kellogg's book anyway, as a commercial job--and the Review and Herald burned down while the plates for Kellogg's book were on the presses. Firemen testified there was something strange about that fire--water could not extinguish it.

Ellen White testified that God was reproving the church by fire. Numerous denominational institutions were destroyed by fire at that time. There are some things that God takes seriously enough to warrant His intervention. How can this issue of Biblical Creationism vs. evolutionism not be one of them? The very existence of the SDA Church is at stake in this controversy. We need to have the moral conviction and courage to take a firm and decisive stand against evolution in our schools, or we will see those schools burned to the ground by the wrath of God. God means for Seventh-day Adventists to stand as His faithful witnesses during the Final Conflict when all the living are judged, so He cannot allow the church to be subverted by evolution.

[Bravus]

Sigh: we had to destroy the village in order to save it...

[Guest]

Stan, tolerance is one thing. Accommodation and failure to insist upon maintaining the foundation of our faith are something else.

Those who believe in evolution cannot be Seventh-day Adventists. Not only does evolution destroy the reliability and authority of the Bible, it also destroys the gospel. If there were no first Adam, how could there be a New Adam? If Genesis is not true, then why do we need a Saviour?

Sooner or later, all teachers at our universities and other schools who espouse evolution must be fired. Otherwise those institutions will be lost to the SDA Church. This is the same situation the church faced at the turn of the 20th century, when the subtle pantheism of Kellogg almost subverted the church, and did carry away many doctors and other medical people. We had a living prophet with us then, and still catastrophe was barely averted. The decision not to publish Kellogg's book on the denominational presses with the same binding and cover as the Spirit of Prophecy books, was made by only a one vote margin. Then it was decided to publish Kellogg's book anyway, as a commercial job--and the Review and Herald burned down while the plates for Kellogg's book were on the presses. Firemen testified there was something strange about that fire--water could not extinguish it.

Ellen White testified that God was reproving the church by fire. Numerous denominational institutions were destroyed by fire at that time. There are some things that God takes seriously enough to warrant His intervention. How can this issue of Biblical Creationism vs. evolutionism not be one of them? The very existence of the SDA Church is at stake in this controversy. We need to have the moral conviction and courage to take a firm and decisive stand against evolution in our schools, or we will see those schools burned to the ground by the wrath of God. God means for Seventh-day Adventists to stand as His faithful witnesses during the Final Conflict when all the living are judged, so He cannot allow the church to be subverted by evolution.

That was unquenchable fire, and your point hit the nail right on the head.

[Woody]

I have to say ... I am embarrassed at some of those who are attempting to take over the Seventh day Adventist church and make their own interpretation of what SDA is ... to be forced upon all.

Surely we are big enough to welcome more than just die hard ultra conservative non tolerant SDAs into our fold.

[Tom Wetmore]

Prime example of the point I made to which you posted your response...

[Dr. Shane]

Surely we are big enough to welcome more than just die hard ultra conservative non tolerant SDAs into our fold.

So do we draw no lines? Do we let those that speak in tongues do their thing? What about those that pray to saints? Can they do their thing? What about those that practice witchcraft? Should they get to do their thing and be active in the church? How about those that promote not paying taxes? Do we draw any lines at all or is the tent big enough for everyone?

[phkrause]

Not sure if you mean not to let them worship with us or accept them as members into the SDA church. Big difference I think.

pk

[Neil D]

Are you sure you want to compare those that practice witchcraft to those who are dedicated to observe the patterns of nature and draw principles from???? Are you sure you want to compare those who practice thier myths to those who live thier lives from prinicples?

The bible says that we are to "... come and reason together"...And the bible takes something that does trouble us, the sins of our neighbors and ourselves, and gives us relief from our sins....Is not a scientist someone who takes those things that trouble us, ie behavioral problems, and suggest ways around our troubles?

Do we always equate scientist with evolutionist? If so, pity the poor doctor...or nurse..or health care worker...or professional....who are trained observers of some aspect of nature....and applys the principles to correct those problems to better our lives....

And doesn't the bible better our lives? If it proscribes the remedy to rid ourselves of something that harms us, can we not say that those same principles that the scientist has teased out of nature thru observation, also better our lives?

Seems to me there should be rooms in our churches as well as in our hearts for the scientist......just my observation...

[olger]

I have to say ... I am embarrassed at some of those who are attempting to take over the Seventh day Adventist church and make their own interpretation of what SDA is ... to be forced upon all.

Surely we are big enough to welcome more than just die hard ultra conservative non tolerant SDAs into our fold.

Well, our culture has been so feminized, people forget what a real man like Isaiah, Elijah is like.

do your duty,

oG

[olger]

[Stan]

So... A scientist wants seek out spiritual things, he comes to an Adventist Church, we say,...... nah, I don't think so, when you a ready to give you scientific research, maybe, if you prove hard enough, we MIGHT go over with you the things Jesus taught.

We really do not need the power of the Holy Spirit and God to change peoples heart do we? OR perhaps his power isn't strong enough. After all Churches have been doing pretty good without God for years.

[Woody]

Not sure if you mean not to let them worship with us or accept them as members into the SDA church. Big difference I think.

pk

Ever met two members who thought alike in all areas?

Much of our churches are full of legalists. Do we kick them out also? What topic is more important than the Grace of Jesus found in the Gospel. And yet many SDAs don't even have that down.

At some point .... we have to let the Spirit do it's work. We are not the Holy Spirit. Who is a member and who is not ... is one of the least concerns I have. Do away with membership and then you would not have to worry.

[Dr. Shane]

A difference in origins is a fundamental difference in faith. Some want to gloss over that in the name of being kind and loving. I am all for being kind and loving. I am all for loving Mormons into our faith. I am all for loving Wiccans into our faith. That doesn't mean I think we should compromise our beliefs with Mormons or Wiccans. We have the Truth. We love them by letting them worship with us, by being kind to them, by helping them in ways that we can. But we do not compromise the truth or gloss over its significance. Heaven forbid!

Science is wonderful but not when it excludes the possibility of God, like natural science does. I have seen many atheists and agnostics come through the doors of AA and they found God because others kept on talking about Him and the relationship they have with Him. We don't have to handle doubters with kid gloves.

Neil asks "Are you sure you want to compare those that practice witchcraft to those who are dedicated to observe the patterns of nature and draw principles from????" as if evolution and witchcraft come from two different sources. The comparison of the two is logical. They both come from the father of lies. Evolution is more dangerous than witchcraft because of the element of intellectual pride that it almost always brings with it. A man that knows everything can be taught nothing. Intellectual pride is a barrier to true knowledge.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In my experience, there are many people in witchcraft who are extremely intelligent people, who have read the Bible and know it better than a lot of Christians.

[Dr. Shane]

There are people from all walks of life that struggle with intellectual pride. And intellectual pride has nothing to do with intelligenc. It is just another form of pride. Some people are proud of their cars, their local NFL team, their home, etc. etc. etc. Those that struggle with intellectual pride are proud of their intellect thus their pride will prevent them from seeing something in a way that would cause them to admit they were wrong about some academic matter.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Not sure if you mean not to let them worship with us or accept them as members into the SDA church. Big difference I think.

pk

Ever met two members who thought alike in all areas?

[Ron Lambert]

Who is it who is “attempting to take over the Seventh day Adventist church and make their own interpretation of what SDA is ... to be forced upon all”? It is those who would fundamentally change our faith to something contrary to the Bible, hoping they can persuade or coerce the rest of us into accepting their compromises.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church, according to God, exists for the purpose of proclaiming the three angels’ messages. The first of those messages, which is the foundation for all of them, is based on the proclamation that the hour of judgment has come as the culmination of the good news of salvation, and it is time for all that dwell on earth to “worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters” (Revelation 14:7).

Satan would like nothing better than for Seventh-day Adventists to abandon their posts because some mistaken scientists think they have to give in to the intimidation of the mainstream majority and call the foolish, totally unscientific nonsense of evolution something we must all bow to. No. Evolution is not valid science, it is based on misinterpretation of the evidence, and all scientists who believe in it believe in a mathematically impossible fantasy that has nothing to do with true science.

A responsible source of sound, well-researched Creation science may be found in the publications of the Creation Research Society. Especially note their peer-reviewed journal, CRS Quarterly. Link: www.creationresearch.org

Those among us who believe in evolution are currently deceiving themselves that they can eventually persuade the rest of us to accommodate their delusional heresy. Eventually they are going to realize that this will not happen. The Seventh-day Adventist Church will remain faithfully committed to Biblical Creationism. When this finally becomes clear, the evolutionists will be forced to make a decision. Many will undoubtedly choose to leave us and denounce us. But this will free the rest of us to be faithful to our calling, and God will manifest His favor to us.

[Bravus]

I guess we'll see: GC next year.