5 ways to keep a Scientist out of our Church.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Biblical teaching follows experience of someone with Godly Behavior..

What is in a person minds is dwarfed by what comes out of person mouth.

Seems to me that the bible says "out of the heart(mind) the mouth speaketh"

It actually states : "out of the heart the mouth speaketh".

The Greek word there is Kardia.

Which explicitly means "heart".

Mind is another word entirely...

Jesus had much to teach on the heart, but our 20th century "psychology" minds struggle to receive it...

Mark :-)

[Stan]

Make sure he/she must be convinced by a non-scientist that he/she must believe in a 6 or 7 day creation before he reads anything else in the Bible. ESPECIALLY things spoken by Jesus.

Mock and laugh at anything he says that seems logical to him/her.

Make sure you tell him/her that if they only had faith they would not believe in silly things they have researched.

Be very sarcastic.

Let them know Science was founded by the Devil.

Apparently some folks thought this was serious and some good ideas. I am sure they are the same folks who thought Archie Bunker spoke the truth.

[Woody]

Hey ... you mean that Archie didn't? I used to watch Archie with my Dad ... many a year ago.

[Dr. Shane]

I called an old AA friend last night. We sobered up together many years ago, she is two years younger than me. She got her degree in bio-chemistry and worked for the FDA for many years. Her husband got his PhD in chemistry and is a professor at a state university. Both of them are conservative Lutherans and young-earth creationists. There are a lot of them around. One doesn't have to be an evolutionist to be a scientist.

[Guest]

I thought it was a rule.

[Bravus]

Requiring scientists to loudly and repeatedly proclaim that they are creationists, against a basic assumption that they are evolutionists simply because they have an education in science, might be a worthy addition to Stan's original list.

[Dr. Shane]

I thought it was a rule.

It is in many universities. Scientists that don't believe in evolution become blackballed. However not all scientists work in universities. Pharmaceutical labs, oil fields, and the agricultural industry is filled with scientists that are free to be creationists.

[olger]

Rather discriminatory of the old schools, chap.

oG

[Bravus]

I'd love to see some stats on this. I know there've been a few incidents, but given that something like 40-50% of US scientists (albeit more chemists, physicists and engineers than biologists and geologists) are creationists, certainly there's no overwhelming pattern of ostracism or blacklisting...

[phkrause]

I'd like to see that also Bravus!

pk

[BobRyan]

Unless someone reads books like "Darwin on Trial" or watches documentary films such as "Expelled" it is kinda hard for them to know about the evidence for blacklisting non-evolutionists.

First one has to be willing to look at the eye-witness testimony -- before concluding that the evidence does not exist.

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

I think it depends a lot on the university. Some universities are more tolerant than others. I live down in the Bible-belt but we still have a lot of universities that are not tolerant of creationists. They have even stopped ICR (Institute for Creation Research)from moving their master's program to Texas from California. One would think Texas would be more tolerant of the creationist view than California but not in ICR's case.

[Bravus]

Bob, as usual, either carelessly or willfully goes on the attack without reading what has been written. I said "I know there have been a few incidents..." and he claimed I'd 'denied it exists'.

I'd still like to see some social science evidence rather than the polemics he recommends: what I questioned was not the existence but the prevalence. Even a dozen cases is miniscule with tens of thousands of science profs in America's hundreds of universities.

[Mark Aurelius]

Quote:

It actually states : "out of the heart the mouth speaketh".

The Greek word there is Kardia.

Which explicitly means "heart".

Mind is another word entirely...

IN fact the current use of the heart as a metaphor for the seat of deep emotions is not what the biblical languages meant. Mind or spirit would be closer.

[olger]

The distinction between heart and mind that is expressed in the New Covenant passages continue to indicate a fundamental difference between them.

olger

[Twilight]

Quote:

It actually states : "out of the heart the mouth speaketh".

The Greek word there is Kardia.

Which explicitly means "heart".

Mind is another word entirely...

IN fact the current use of the heart as a metaphor for the seat of deep emotions is not what the biblical languages meant. Mind or spirit would be closer.

Heart and "spirit" are often linked in the Bible through parrellelism.

It is something I am exploring at the moment.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

The distinction between heart and mind that is expressed in the New Covenant passages continue to indicate a fundamental difference between them.

olger

Indeed. :-)

But modern "psychology" wants to place every "function" of man in the mind...

Rather than let the bible be its own expositor, this philosophy is subconsciously bought to the table in my view.

Mark :-)

[Bravus]

I preached on this many years ago. 'Heart' in the Bible seems to mean something like 'integrated heart and mind'. It is shown as being the seat of both reason and emotion, tightly linked together. Particularly in the OT there was not the Greek division between reason and emotion and between body and mind, rather a much more holistic view in which decisions were made with the whole being. So 'out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks' means something like 'out of the totality of who a person is, their words come'. If the words are continually full of bitterness, there is something spoiled in the person, their heart/mind, the wholeness of their being...

[The Searcher]

I have joined late in this discussion, but as a scientist, I would like to add my little bit.

There seems to be some who think logical thinking is inappropriate when it comes to faith. And I would suggest they are wrong. Christianity is probably the most logical response to the evidence that I can find. Many of my colleagues have a shallow understanding of the evidence upon which Christianity is based and are surprised when I can show them the truth of the Christian hope in a logical fashion. But logic alone will not convince. Rather, I have found that it must be the Spirit who guides their thought processes. I must become a tool in the Spirit's arsenal in reaching my peers.

Secondly, it is interesting to me that of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the least tolerated, and, in many cases, is discouraged from discussion in the public arena. Yet, it is okay to talk and teach Islam or Buddhism or any other ism, and those who promulgate such beliefs get little or no grief for their public attempts to teach their systems of belief. This suggests to me that the vast majority of people know the Christian message, as set forth in Scripture, is true. And they are trying to hide from its convicting power. Let us understand that the visceral attacks against Christianity are an acknowledgement that Christianity is Truth, and, deep within all individuals, there is this uncomfortable sense that God does exist despite all their protestations to the opposite. Why waste your time disputing something which does not convict you.

What does bother me is the acceptance among our own science community in the belief that science is the ultimate test of truth. In my time as a scientist, I have come to distrust a complete dependence upon my science and my scientific logic. Rather, I have come to appreciate that science should be approached in the same venue as I do the Bible: With prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit. I have seen many so-called facts and explanations change as untrue in my discipline of Geology when they are challenged, but when the Bible is challenged in its historical facts, it comes out to be a clear statement of true history, and man has to reset his personal view and understanding of Biblical truth because of it. The Bible always comes out to be correct, and man is the one who must adjust their understanding.

All scientists need to be approached as you would any sinner. With kindness, love, and a willingness to listen. Let the Holy Spirit use you. It is our duty to present truth as presented in the Biblical record but with tact and humility. Do not browbeat or dismiss their thinking. Rather, listen and allow the Holy Spirit to use you as He works with each man, woman, or child who comes to be under our influence. I would suggest that witnessing is 2/3's listening and 1/6 speaking. Be a true Christian, allow them room to disagree, and do not condemn if they do not see it as you see it. Remember, most scientists have not had to think about what they believe, and it may take years for the logic of the Christian message to come through.

Furthermore, do not think that logic will win souls. Rather, it is the work of the Spirit who will put together the proper map to achieving the salvation of each soul. As you are different so allow them to be different.

And do not, at any time, be anything more than humble. I have seen more of my colleagues turned off to Christianity because of the manner in which they were treated by so-called Christians. Do not bend your understanding of truth to accommodate their understanding, do not compromise, but be humble and loving in your representation of truth and in answering their questions. Let Christ shine out through you. Logic is important, but the real convicting power to anyone is the testimony of a changed life. Most scientists are proud individuals who have a supreme trust in their thought processes; they have not learned that in the light of the infinite, they are blind. They are deceived, and only by observing a true Christian can they come to realize the real falsity of their understanding. Humility and love will do more towards a scientist's acceptance of Truth and Christ than will all the logic in the world. Do not condemn, rather love.

Sincerely,

the Seafarer.

[Guest]

Amen

[phkrause]

Good post searcher.

pk

[Twilight]

I have joined late in this discussion, but as a scientist, I would like to add my little bit.

There seems to be some who think logical thinking is inappropriate when it comes to faith. And I would suggest they are wrong. Christianity is probably the most logical response to the evidence that I can find. Many of my colleagues have a shallow understanding of the evidence upon which Christianity is based and are surprised when I can show them the truth of the Christian hope in a logical fashion. But logic alone will not convince. Rather, I have found that it must be the Spirit who guides their thought processes. I must become a tool in the Spirit's arsenal in reaching my peers.

Secondly, it is interesting to me that of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the least tolerated, and, in many cases, is discouraged from discussion in the public arena. Yet, it is okay to talk and teach Islam or Buddhism or any other ism, and those who promulgate such beliefs get little or no grief for their public attempts to teach their systems of belief. This suggests to me that the vast majority of people know the Christian message, as set forth in Scripture, is true. And they are trying to hide from its convicting power. Let us understand that the visceral attacks against Christianity are an acknowledgement that Christianity is Truth, and, deep within all individuals, there is this uncomfortable sense that God does exist despite all their protestations to the opposite. Why waste your time disputing something which does not convict you.

What does bother me is the acceptance among our own science community in the belief that science is the ultimate test of truth. In my time as a scientist, I have come to distrust a complete dependence upon my science and my scientific logic. Rather, I have come to appreciate that science should be approached in the same venue as I do the Bible: With prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit. I have seen many so-called facts and explanations change as untrue in my discipline of Geology when they are challenged, but when the Bible is challenged in its historical facts, it comes out to be a clear statement of true history, and man has to reset his personal view and understanding of Biblical truth because of it. The Bible always comes out to be correct, and man is the one who must adjust their understanding.

All scientists need to be approached as you would any sinner. With kindness, love, and a willingness to listen. Let the Holy Spirit use you. It is our duty to present truth as presented in the Biblical record but with tact and humility. Do not browbeat or dismiss their thinking. Rather, listen and allow the Holy Spirit to use you as He works with each man, woman, or child who comes to be under our influence. I would suggest that witnessing is 2/3's listening and 1/6 speaking. Be a true Christian, allow them room to disagree, and do not condemn if they do not see it as you see it. Remember, most scientists have not had to think about what they believe, and it may take years for the logic of the Christian message to come through.

Furthermore, do not think that logic will win souls. Rather, it is the work of the Spirit who will put together the proper map to achieving the salvation of each soul. As you are different so allow them to be different.

And do not, at any time, be anything more than humble. I have seen more of my colleagues turned off to Christianity because of the manner in which they were treated by so-called Christians. Do not bend your understanding of truth to accommodate their understanding, do not compromise, but be humble and loving in your representation of truth and in answering their questions. Let Christ shine out through you. Logic is important, but the real convicting power to anyone is the testimony of a changed life. Most scientists are proud individuals who have a supreme trust in their thought processes; they have not learned that in the light of the infinite, they are blind. They are deceived, and only by observing a true Christian can they come to realize the real falsity of their understanding. Humility and love will do more towards a scientist's acceptance of Truth and Christ than will all the logic in the world. Do not condemn, rather love.

Sincerely,

the Seafarer.

Welcome :-)

Appreciated your post.

Mark :-)

[The Searcher]

I would add a word of caution. We need to treat all with the same love and humbleness; even those who put up stumbling blocks before others. Paul, declares that those who cause others to stumble will not be found in heaven (1 Timothy 1,I believe; look it up). We do not want to be stumbling blocks to anyone. We can be a stumbling block to those who create stumbling blocks. We are all sinners and in need of a Savior. We founder and need others to come to our aid when we do. Again, love and humbleness is the key to bringing the wanderer back to God.

Sincerely,

The Seafarer

[Twilight]

I would add a word of caution. We need to treat all with the same love and humbleness; even those who put up stumbling blocks before others. Paul, declares that those who cause others to stumble will not be found in heaven (1 Timothy 1,I believe; look it up). We do not want to be stumbling blocks to anyone. We can be a stumbling block to those who create stumbling blocks. We are all sinners and in need of a Savior. We founder and need others to come to our aid when we do. Again, love and humbleness is the key to bringing the wanderer back to God.

Sincerely,

The Seafarer

Indeed. :-)

Humility and love are gifts of the Holy Spirit. :-)

Mark

[l2ol7ald]

Thanks searcher. Great insight!