The Covenants--Liberty or Slavery?

[John317]

Conquer=overcome. Overcome what? Overcome how? Someone please show me where in these verses Jesus Christ says anything about overcoming by grace through faith. Did Jesus overcome sin through grace by faith? Or did His actions overcome sin?

We are to overcome as He did.

Christ overcame temptations by the power of the Holy Spirit. He had access to the same power that we have, and He never used any power that we can't use to resist temptation and overcome sin in our lives. Jesus lived by faith in His Father every moment of His life on this earth. He said, "I can of Myself do nothing." (See John 5: 19, 30.) It's through the grace of God that we receive power and strength to live the Christian life.

Look at the last verse in the Bible. "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all." "Grace" is offered and desperately needed by everyone right up to the Second Coming. The Greek word is charis, charitos and means "a special manifestation of the divine presence, activity, power; a favor, expression of kindness, gift, blessing" (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, Barclay M. Newman, Jr., United Bible Societies.) We receive that power and that gift daily through the prayer of faith. (See James 5: 15;cf. Matt. 8: 13; 9: 22, 29; 21: 22.)

[Gerr]

The Everlasting Covenant did not begin with Abraham, otherwise it is not "everlasting". It was conceived in the mind of God in eternity past. This was extended to A & E, Noah, Abraham & his descendants. There is not one covenant for Abraham and another for Jacob, and another to his grandchildren and the rest of his posterity. The Sinai Covenant was the same Everlasting Covenant extended to the descendants of Abraham that was given to him. It became the "Old Covenant" because the Israelites tried to comply with the stipulations on their own. As Paul points out in Hebrews, they did not enter God's rest because of unbelief which he equates it with disobedience. And in Romans 10, Paul says the Israelites were ignorant of the "righteousness that comes from God" and sought to establish their own.

So they turned the Everlasting Covenant/Abrahamic Covenant into "old covenant" because they did not receive it by faith. In the same manner, we can turn the New Covenant into bondage and Old Covenant through unbelief and by trying to establish our own righteousness.

[John317]

Excellent post, Gerry. The "Old Covenant" is not really about time but about the condition of the heart. People can live under the OC at any time if we try to obey and do right on our own, in the flesh, apart from a personal commitment to Christ. This is the situation of the man of Romans 7.

[pnattmbtc]

So they turned the Everlasting Covenant/Abrahamic Covenant into "old covenant" because they did not receive it by faith.

It seems we're in agreement. I'm not understanding why you took exception with what I said, regarding the people initiating the Old Covenant. They initiated the Old Covenant by doing what you just said.

[Musicman1228]

If Jesus had to have faith that He was the Son of God then He wasn't. Faith is believing in something intangible, without substance or definable evidence. Trust is knowing for sure what and in whom you believe based on concrete and irrefutable evidence. Which one of these best describes the relationship between Jesus and His Father?

[Guest]

MM, You don't have irrefutable evidence that the words in red are the words of Jesus. You hope they are, since you try to tell everyone they are the only ones that matter, and you seem to have faith in them. Which means you are living by faith. The very thing you are trying to tell us not to do.

Hab 2:4 .. but the just shall live by his faith.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Joh 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

So they turned the Everlasting Covenant/Abrahamic Covenant into "old covenant" because they did not receive it by faith.

It seems we're in agreement. I'm not understanding why you took exception with what I said, regarding the people initiating the Old Covenant. They initiated the Old Covenant by doing what you just said.

Sorry. I suppose semantics got in the way again!

[Gerr]

If Jesus had to have faith that He was the Son of God then He wasn't. Faith is believing in something intangible, without substance or definable evidence. Trust is knowing for sure what and in whom you believe based on concrete and irrefutable evidence. Which one of these best describes the relationship between Jesus and His Father?

Are you saying faith and trust as mutually exclusive?

[Musicman1228]

MM, You don't have irrefutable evidence that the words in red are the words of Jesus. You hope they are, since you try to tell everyone they are the only ones that matter, and you seem to have faith in them. Which means you are living by faith. The very thing you are trying to tell us not to do.

Hab 2:4 .. but the just shall live by his faith.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Joh 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.

The word 'faith' in Hebrew:

530 'emuwnah em-oo-naw'); or (shortened) >emunah {em-oo-naw' feminine of 529; literally firmness; figuratively security; morally fidelity:--faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

This is not the 'faith' that is described most often in the NT. With words like 'truth', 'firmness', 'security', 'stability', used to describe the Hebrew word EMUWNAH would seem to indicate something closer akin to TRUST, or TRUTH, rather than the ephemeral 'faith'.

It is significant that you left out the first part of John 15:5, because it shows the foundation of why we can do nothing without the truth of Jesus Christ.

I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. John 15:5.

How do we 'abide' in Jesus? By abiding in HIS words. Jesus did not say 'abide in any words that sound like they may be from me'.

The reason we must abide in HIS words is told to us in the following verses:

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  John 8:31-32.

The purpose of abiding in HIS words is so that we will know the truth. The reason to know the truth is so that it can eventually set us free. It is not through the words of ANYONE other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God, that this can occur. Jesus did not equivocate in this, so why do you? If I choose to believe this with all my heart, mind, soul, and spirit then who are you to tell me 'no, that's not enough'.

The following is my explanation about the validity of the words of Jesus as given by His eyewitnesses~

I have never said that I believe that every word in red in the Bible are the words of Jesus Christ. The red is put there by editors trying to make it easy on the reader. There are several instances in the NT where it is likely that Jesus did not say what He is purported to say. I am suspicious of any words that Paul says Jesus spoke to Him. The story of the repentant criminal on the cross next to Jesus is suspicious because it is not related that way in either Matthew, Mark or John.

Then two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right and one on the left. Matt.27:38.

Those who were crucified with him also reviled him. Mark 15:32.

There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. John 19:18.

Nowhere in the other three Gospel accounts does it say that one criminal was repentant. This is significant, because it shows the hubris of Paul in relating this 'story' about the criminal that is supposed to have asked Jesus to 'remember me'. Paul was not at the crucifixion. Neither was Luke. None of the disciples that were there told him this 'tale' about the robber. So where did Paul get it? Either he made it up, which shows personal dishonesty; or he got it from the visions that he was given, which means that those visions could not have come from God.

In either case those words that are here attributed to Jesus Christ are TO ME clear indicators that someone other than the true Holy Spirit placed them in a location where they would be thought of as truth. That is the definition of deception. This shows me that when Jesus told the parable/prophecy of the Wheat and the Weeds (Matt.13:24-30) He had direct knowledge that this kind of thing would take place, and wanted to prepare His servants so they would not be deceived (Matt.24:4).

This is why I KNOW (not guess, or believe by faith) that the words of Jesus as given to us by His eyewitness were preserved by the Holy Spirit throughout the intervening years as a testimony to the truth. If this is not the case then Jesus Christ is truly the greatest liar of all time, because He said:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. John 14:26.

Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. John 17:7-8.

Jesus gave every word that His Father gave to Him to His own disciples, who gave them to us. Jesus was talking about the disciples that were with Him from the beginning of His ministry. He promised that they would remember EVERYTHING He said to them, so they could with accuracy give it to those of us that would believe those words to the the truth directly from the Son of God.

Therefore the chain of evidence is unbroken through the years from the mouth of Jesus Christ to us today. This IS NOT faith. It is complete trust in the words of Jesus Christ that spoke them. Yes, God has to allow Satan the opportunity to deceive, we do not have to avail ourselves of the opportunity to be deceived. There is NO way that you can be deceived by the words of Jesus Christ as given to His own disciples, and preserved for us by the Holy Spirit. This is an iron-clad guarantee by the Son of God. It does not apply to anyone else, which is why I personally reject the idea that there is anyone else in Heaven, on earth, or under the earth, human or supernatural, that can guarantee my salvation through the words of truth other than Jesus Christ Himself.

[Guest]

That all sounds good, and very blusterous. But the fact is, you still have to take it on faith, because you were not there, and you don't really know. No matter how much you say you do.

[Michaeneu]

I don’t think we can say that Yahweh freed Israel when he took them out of Egypt only to put them under bondage at Sinai again! And the scriptures don’t support that the OT was based upon works either anymore than the NT. What Paul meant in Galatians 4 was that the Jews that refused to acknowledge that Christ ended the sacrificial system, which circumcision was part of, were choosing to remain in bondage; timing is everything. While Yahweh freed them from bondage in Egypt and attempted to free them from sin by at Sinai, it would take the NC to bring freedom to completion.

Michael

[wayfinder]

Ex 19:5

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Jos 7:11

Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions.

Ps 132:12

if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne for ever and ever."

Isa 56:6

And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to serve him, to love the name of the Lord, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--

De 4:13

He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Genesis 26:4,5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Daniel9:10,11

we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets.

All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. "Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you.

These are but a few of the many texts that make it very clear that God requires, expects and accepts nothing less than perfect obedience. God forgives the truly repentant sinner and will give strength and wisdom to recognize and resist temptation.

[John317]

These are but a few of the many texts that make it very clear that God requires, expects and accepts nothing less than perfect obedience.

And who has rendered perfect obedience? Only one man, right?

It's quite true that God accepts nothing less than perfect obedience. Since this is true, whose perfect obedience is accepted in the place of our imperfect obedience? This must be the case because if not, only Christ would be accepted and have salvation. No one else, on their own, has perfect obedience to offer God. Apart from Christ's righteousness, all of us are completely hopeless and lost.

Quote:

God forgives the truly repentant sinner and will give strength and wisdom to recognize and resist temptation.

Forgiveness signifies that one has not obeyed perfectly. For instance, the Father never had to forgive Christ. Why? Because He never disobeyed. Everyone else needs God's grace (unmerited favor) because all have sinned and all continue to fall short of God's glorious standards.

[Guest]

Amen

[wayfinder]

Re 12:17

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Obedience by those who are born-again through the Holy Spirit. The offspring are obedient, obedience is not a gift.

Mt 19:17

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Jesus gives no indication that He gifts obedience through grace.

Joh 15:10

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Here Jesus is saying that to abide in His love one must keep His commandments (obedience).

Mt 16:27

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS .

John 5:26-30 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

"Good deeds (obedience), bad deeds (disobedience). Resurrection and judgment, still no indication that righteousness is a gift through grace.

[Guest]

Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

[wayfinder]

Psalms 24:3 Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD? And who may stand in His holy place? 4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood And has not sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive a blessing from the LORD And righteousness from the God of his salvation. 6 This is the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face--{even} Jacob. Selah.

Richard, please, no cut and paste. When the whole message is read the context is clear. "clean hands, pure heart, not lifted up his soul to falsehood and not sworn deceitfully" then....

[Guest]

It still comes from the Lord.

[wayfinder]

Yes indeed it does, but it is not a gift through grace, it comes through right doing (righteousness) which is obedience to God.

[Guest]

A Warning. Because the entire Scripture is inspired, Ellen White warned: "Do not let any living man come to you and begin to dissect God's Word, telling what is revelation, what is

inspiration and what is not, without a rebuke. . . . We call on you to take your Bible, but do not put a sacrilegious hand upon it, and say, 'That is not inspired,' simply because somebody

else has said so. Not a jot or tittle is ever to be taken from that Word. Hands off, brethren! Do not touch the ark. . . . When men begin to meddle with God's Word, I want to tell them to take

their hands off, for they do not know what they are doing" (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, 7:919-920). Again she wrote: "Brethren, cling to your Bible, as it reads, and

stop your criticisms in regard to its validity, and obey the Word, and not one of you will be lost" (Selected Messages, 1:18).

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

[wayfinder]

Revelation 2:1,2 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: `I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

Ephesus/Ephesians Hummmm, wonder if there might be a connection?

[Guest]

Not in the way you're thinking. Not a chance.

[wayfinder]

ok

[John317]

Re 12:17

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Obedience by those who are born-again through the Holy Spirit. The offspring are obedient, obedience is not a gift.

Rev. 12: 17 is speaking particularly about commandment-keeping Seventh-day

Adventists, a group that came up on the scene of history after 1798, in the "time of the end," a relatively short period of time before the Second Coming.

This group would also have in its midst the manifestation of the gift of prophecy. That gift is seen in the life and ministry of Ellen G. White. The commandment-keeping, including the Sabbath, AND the gift of prophecy, are two of the identifying marks of the "remnant," or "remainder of her offspring." This group did not exist prior to the 19th century.

It's not saying that every single individual claiming to be in the group is keeping the commandments, however. And it's also not saying that these commandment-keepers never sin, or that they keep the commandments on their own strength. (See 1 John.) No one can keep the commandments on their own strength, Wayfinder. Even Jesus said, "I can of my own self do nothing." If Christ couldn't keep God's commandments on his own, apart from the power of God, what chance do we have to keep the commandments on our own merely human strength? Obviously, nada. And anyone who is trying it this way will learn the same lesson learned by the man of Romans 7-- the same lesson learned by the Israelites who wandered in the desert and whose corpses rotten in the desert and never saw the Promised Land. Why? Because they lacked faith and obedience.

Even the Old Testament contains many references (primarily in the Prophets) to the fact that we cannot obey without God's help. See Jeremiah 31 and Ps. 51, for instance.

We may agree more than you think, though. I agree that the commandment-keeping results from being born again. But to say this means that it is a gift, because obviously the new birth is a gift of God. We cannot give ourselves a new birth. John 1: 12, 13 says it is not from the will of man. If it is not from our will, it must be from God's will, just as it says. And that is God's grace. We do not-- we cannot-- merit it. We receive it as we receive Christ. Evereything we receive from God is a gift, including eternal life.

[wayfinder]

What about Caleb and Joshua?

Joshua 14:6,8,9

Then the sons of Judah drew near to Joshua in Gilgal, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, "You know the word which the LORD spoke to Moses the man of God concerning you and me in Kadesh-barnea.

"Nevertheless my brethren who went up with me made the heart of the people melt with fear; but I followed the LORD my God fully. "So Moses swore on that day, saying, 'Surely the land on which your foot has trodden will be an inheritance to you and to your children forever, because you have followed the LORD my God fully.'

Only Caleb and Joshua entered the land of promise, because they obeyed the Lord God. Obedience is the key, it is not a gift it is an action. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, because he disobeyed God by striking the rock.