The Covenants--Liberty or Slavery?

[Guest]

Do you obey God perfectly without any help from God?

[John317]

Sure, the obedience is an action. I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm not denying that obedience is an action. What I'm saying is that God gives us the desire and the power to obey. See Ezekiel 36: 26, 27, for instance.

[wayfinder]

I never said I didn't need help from God, I do; but righteousness/obedience is not a gift it is a state of being. I obey God because I love Him and seek to do His will, I do not see obedience to God as an impossible goal. My role models are the Son of God, Daniel, John, Caleb, Joshua, Elijah and Joseph, to mention a few.

[Guest]

I don't see it as impossible either. But since I do need help from God to do it, just like you admitted to.

I do acknowledge the gift, and see it as such from start to finish, even though my will is envolved.

[John317]

I do not see obedience to God as an impossible goal.

Nor do I, and I doubt Richard believes it's impossible to obey God, either.

What I'm saying is that (1) no one obeys God's with absolute perfection, as Christ did; and (2) we all are in need of God's forgiveness and His righteousness, both of which are God's charis, or grace. See Rev. 22: 21.

[Just*]

Old Covenant "Obey and Live" -- first made with Adam and Eve. (And with all the unfallen worlds -- and with the unfallen angels).

Works good until someone chooses sin.

No...

for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. Rom 14:23

[wayfinder]

Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Yes John317, but also in the same chapter verse 12 "works" it is not a gift.

[Just*]

My role models are the Son of God, Daniel, John, Caleb, Joshua, Elijah and Joseph, to mention a few.

Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works Jas 2:22

[Guest]

I don't see it as impossible either. But since I do need help from God to do it, just like you admitted to.

I do acknowledge the gift, and see it as such from start to finish, even though my will is envolved.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[Guest]

Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Psa 37:5,6

[Guest]

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[Guest]

The righteousness of God, which is obtained by faith in Christ, brings with it the life of God, which is inseparably connected with righteousness; and the life of God, which is bestowed upon man as a gift through faith in Christ, is a life of righteousness -- the righteousness or right doing, of Christ.

[Musicman1228]

Is grace an excuse for continued disobedience?

[John317]

Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Yes John317, but also in the same chapter verse 12 "works" it is not a gift.

"Works," or deeds, are not a gift, but the desire and the power to do the deeds of God are certainly from God, don't you agree? Apart from God, we would be only doing the deeds of Satan, for apart from the new birth, our natural father-- the father of our flesh-- is Satan. See John 8: 44; cf. 1 John 3: 1-10.

To do the works of God and obey Him, we require a new heart and we need His Spirit. We cannot truly love the Lord with all of our heart and mind and strength without His Spirit abiding in us. This is what God promises us if we will accept them. See Ezekiel 26: 25-27. David agrees in his beautiful Psalm 51.

[John317]

Is grace an excuse for continued disobedience?

Certainly not, and this was Paul's point in Romans 6: 1, 15.

[Just*]

Obedience is the key, it is not a gift it is an action. Even Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, because he disobeyed God by striking the rock.

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Heb 3:19

Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Deut 9:5

[Just*]

Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Psa 37:5,6

The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth [him with] his hand. Ps 37:23-24

The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. Ps 37:31

Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see [it]. Ps 37:34

But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble. And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him. Ps 37:39-40

[Just*]

The Everlasting Covenant did not begin with Abraham, otherwise it is not "everlasting". It was conceived in the mind of God in eternity past. This was extended to A & E, Noah, Abraham & his descendants. There is not one covenant for Abraham and another for Jacob, and another to his grandchildren and the rest of his posterity. The Sinai Covenant was the same Everlasting Covenant extended to the descendants of Abraham that was given to him. It became the "Old Covenant" because the Israelites tried to comply with the stipulations on their own. As Paul points out in Hebrews, they did not enter God's rest because of unbelief which he equates it with disobedience. And in Romans 10, Paul says the Israelites were ignorant of the "righteousness that comes from God" and sought to establish their own.

So they turned the Everlasting Covenant/Abrahamic Covenant into "old covenant" because they did not receive it by faith. In the same manner, we can turn the New Covenant into bondage and Old Covenant through unbelief and by trying to establish our own righteousness.

NO

"The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. Feeling that they were able to establish their own righteousness, they declared, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34. {PP 372.1}

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked. Through the prophet He declared of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29. " PP

[Ron Amnsn]

Confusion about the Two Covenants is cleared up as sunshine clears away fog by noting one question: WHO MAKES THE PROMISE?

(1) If you or I make the promise to God, immediately it's Old Covenant. It's Peter promising that he will never deny Christ, and then doing it before the rooster crowed next morning. It's "all the people" promising at Mt. Sinai, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do!" and then bowing down to a golden calf in a few days. The problem is simple: we humans don't keep our promises; in fact, we can't, because we have no righteousness of our own.

[Just*]

Richard, why do you speak of the "old" Covenant as if it was something bad?

Where does the Scripture speak of the "old" Covenant as if it was something bad? By what authority do you judge the "old" covenant?

In the New (renewed) Covenant promise in Jer 31 and Heb 8, God says that the only fault with Israel's original covenant was that they didn't keep it. The only stated difference between the original covenant and the New (renewed) Covenant is that God takes responsibility for writing the law on the hearts. That had formerly been the people's responsibility (Deut 6:6).

[Michaeneu]

Again I say, I don’t think we can say that Yahweh freed Israel when he took them out of Egypt only to put them under bondage at Sinai again! And the scriptures don’t support that the OT was based upon works either anymore than the NT. What Paul meant in Galatians 4 was that the Jews that refused to acknowledge that Christ ended the sacrificial system, which circumcision was part of, were choosing to remain in bondage; timing is everything. While Yahweh freed them from bondage in Egypt and attempted to free them from sin by at Sinai, it would take the NC to bring freedom to completion.

Michael

[Musicman1228]

Ron, nice job defining the covenants of God. Apparently there are still some that don't get the connections. In aid of that here is a question: the Covenant described in Jer. 31:31 and on, and in Heb. 8 is a covenant to which the Kingdom is still looking forward. This is the same covenant the God gave Israel at Sinai that defined them as the Kingdom of Heaven, God's chosen people. They rejected the covenant twice. Can you show me in Scripture where the 'new' form of this covenant has been established in either the literal ancestors of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, or in another follow-on Kingdom? Are we still not waiting for this 'new' covenant to be ratified in and by His Kingdom on earth, or has this already occurred?

[Guest]

MM, where can I find the text that describes Israel as the Kingdom of Heaven? I must have missed it, but I would like to have it for future reference.

[Michaeneu]

“For this is my blood of the new testament (1242), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matt. 26:28

The word “testament” is from the Greek diatheke (1242) just as the word translated as “covenant”; both translations are from the same word as we find in Hebrews below.

“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant (1242) with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…” Heb. 8:8

What new covenant did Christ inaugurate at the last supper?

Michael

[Musicman1228]

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matt.26:27-28. (ESV)

And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Mark 14:24. (ESV)

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. Luke 22:20. (ESV)

You, as do I, use the KJV for Strong's numbers. But the text that was used to translate the KJV from Latin (textus Vaticanus) into english is actually a very poor text (according to experts) from which to get the best source for the actual Hebrew and Greek translations. There are many other more modern Bibles that actually do a better job of translation from the original languages. One of those Bibles is the English Standard Vestion (ESV) which I have quoted above.

You can see that in Matthew and in Mark Jesus at the last supper did not use the word 'new' in relationship to the 'Covenant'. The text in Luke includes the word 'new'. Luke was not a disciple of Jesus Christ, was not an eyewitness, and got the majority of the information he used in his gospel from Paul, not from eyewitness disciples. On the other hand the eyewitness disciples Matthew and Peter (Mark acting as scribe) use the word 'covenant' without the appelation 'new' in front of it, and they both use the same phraseology, "This is the blood of the covenant". To me this means a great deal in that it is apparent that Jesus didn't use the phrase 'new covenant' to describe the agreement between Himself and the disciples.

And even if you make the choice to believe Luke over Matthew and Peter the word 'new' is not used in this context to mean 'different'. It means new as in 'renewed' or 'fresh'. The implication is that the covenant that Jesus was speaking of was the original covenant given to Israel at Sinai, but 'renewed' or made 'fresh' because of the blood of His sacrifice.