Letters to the Churches

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Has not our religion been changed then? Have not books of a new order been written ever since containing the "new theology"? Have not the words of inspiration, as found in 1 S.M.204,205, been fulfilled to the very letter?

Is this not the "new organization" we have been warned about and were not the repudiations of our pillars the beginning of the "omega of apostasy" we have been warned about?

sky

But has the whole denomination gone over to these teachings Sky?

You are right to educate and warn, I totally agree, we must be able to "understand" these compromises.

But I am not sure the "church" has fallen?

But I am also not sure it "hasn't"...

Mark

Mark, the whole thread is not about the people at large who had nothing to do with those secret meetings in which the pillars of our faith were compromised to gain the friendship of the popular churches but about the religious leaders who secretly changed our religion as in the days of Christ when the religious leaders of the people decided to try Jesus in secret.

No it is far from being over as far as the people in general are concerned for the majority have not the slightest idea of what took place in those fateful years. So yes we need to be educated and warned if this is indeed the "omega of apostasy" that we have been warned about.

sky

[skyblue888]

The national Sunday laws.

I mean as far as what is going to take place within the church,not without, before the Sunday law.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Sunday laws enforced all over the earth (nationally)--I don't think so!

[skyblue888]

What is the next event in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll as far as the church is concerned, before the enactment of the National Sunday Law in the US first?

In the days of Christ, the Jewish church received two calls (two gospel invitations) before the message went to the Gentiles. The first call was given before the crucifixion and it was rejected as the parable predicted. This call was followed by the crucifixion of Christ. This crucifixion (omega of apostasy) was followed by the second and final call of the parable to the Jews. This call ended with the stoning of Stephen. By this rejection of the second call the Jewish church sealed her rejection of God's mercy. Probation closed for the Jewish church then and the "little church" made of the disciples of Christ and their converts went to the Gentiles with the very message the Jewish church had rejected.

Are we not repeating their history?

The first call for the Advent People was in 1888 and as the parable predicted it was rejected by the leading men and since then it has been kept away from the church and from the world to a large degree. See 1 S.M.234,235.

This rejection of the first call was also followed by a crucifixion. Christ was crucified afresh when our leaders repudiated the pillars of our faith in the 1950s as they met with representatives of the popular churches. See 1 S.M.204,205. This crucifixion is to be followed by the second and last call to the Advent people. This call will be given in demonstration of the Holy Spirit in "latter rain" power. If that call is rejected and the bearers of the message are again persecuted and forced out of the church they will have no other choice but to leave and turn to the "Gentiles" as did the disciples of Christ after A.D.34 and their message will swell into the loud cry to the world which will happen simultaneously with the National Sunday Law.

How is that?

sky

[John317]

I thought we already *had* Sunday laws, but that they just are not enforced at present.

Yes, you're right. Some states do have what are called "blue laws" on their books. Most of these were passed well over a hundred years ago, and as you say, they are seldom enforced. Back in the 1880s, some SDAs in Tennessee were convicted of working on their farms on Sunday and were put in jail for it. The Blair Amendment-- a Sunday law-- almost passed through Congress and became law in about 1888. I think it was one or two votes shy of passage. Even today there are religious leaders and organizations that are trying to get "Sunday laws" through the Congress.

If you're interested, there's a good book about it called, The Separation of Church and State in the United States, by Johnson and Yost. Especially see pp. 30, 31. You can access it online--

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z51y1yk...;q=&f=false

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I thought we already *had* Sunday laws, but that they just are not enforced at present.

Yes, you're right. Some states do have what are called "blue laws" on their books. Most of these were passed well over a hundred years ago, and as you say, they are seldom enforced. Back in the 1880s, some SDAs in Tennessee were convicted of working on their farms on Sunday and were put in jail for it. The Blair Amendment-- a Sunday law-- almost passed through Congress and became law in about 1888. I think it was one or two votes shy of passage. Even today there are religious leaders and organizations that are trying to get "Sunday laws" through the Congress.

If you're interested, there's a good book about it called, The Separation of Church and State in the United States, by Johnson and Yost. Especially see pp. 30, 31. You can access it online--

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z51y1yk...;q=&f=false

Exacltly. Well said.

But I hope that the discussion will not be about the Sunday Law. We want to study and find out what is to take place within the church before the Sunday Law is enacted in the US first and then to all the countries on the globe.

What do you make of my last post John?

sky

[Dr. Rich]

John, are you saying that EGW prophecied that there would be National Sunday Laws all over the world?

[Woody]

Sunday laws are old hat. They have been upheld nationally by our courts for many years. Let's move on ...

[Woody]

Quote:

"Sunday can be used for carrying forward various lines of work that will accomplish much for the Lord. On this day open-air meetings and cottage meetings can be held. House-to-house work can be done. Those who write can devote this day to writing their articles. Whenever it is possible, let religious services be held on Sunday. Make these meetings intensely interesting. Sing genuine revival hymns, and speak with power and assurance of the Saviour's love. Speak on temperance and on true religious experience. You will thus learn much about how to work, and will reach many souls. " Ellen White in 9T 233

[Guest]

Sunday laws are old hat. They have been upheld nationally by our courts for many years. Let's move on ...

There has never been a national sunday law. The little sunday blue laws you are speaking of, which are not even being enforced, are not even state wide in most cases, much less national.

Anyone who believes Ellen White and understands Rev. 13 knows it is coming. And when it does, it (the law) will have teeth. It will be the test of loyalty for God's people. Will you serve God or man, when your governmant makes it so you cannot buy or sell unless you do what they say. I thought every adventist knew this.

There is a book called "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White. If you were to read it, it would go a long way in helping you to understand, and to better know what you are talking about.

[LifeHiscost]

You are right to educate and warn, I totally agree, we must be able to "understand" these compromises.

But I am not sure the "church" has fallen?

But I am also not sure it "hasn't"...

Mark

"Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths.... The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy. {Mar 203.1}

I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. Those who shall heed this false message and try to leaven others will be deceived and prepared to receive advanced delusions, and they will come to nought. {Mar 203.2}

I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people, and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end. "{Mar 203.3}

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Considering history and the present course of things, I don't think it's all that far fetched.

Without doubt. If it were necessary I would gladly hazard my eternal welfare, with God's grace.

"He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. "Revelation 13:16,17 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Even today there are religious leaders and organizations that are trying to get "Sunday laws" through the Congress.

Not to mention that there are already laws re: enforced legislation in some other countries besides the U.S. I had always been under the impression the U.S. would be the first to advance enforced Sunday legislation, shortly followed by other countries. I'm not sure how these other countries were to play into the picture.

The EU Must Keep Sunday, Says Catholic Church

November 18, 2008 | From theTrumpet.com

The Catholic Church wants Sunday observance enshrined in EU law. The European Parliament is debating changes to its Working Time Directive. The Vatican wants a clause in this law that would force every citizen in the European Union to rest on Sunday.

A hideously socialist piece of legislation, the Working Time Directive currently makes it illegal for those working, with some exceptions, in the EU to work for more than 48 hours a week. Workers in the UK are currently allowed to opt out of its provisions.

The bill is being revised. During the second reading, in October, seven Members of the European Parliament tabled an amendment saying that the minimum rest period “shall in principle include Sunday.” The Brussels-based Commission of the Bishops’ Conferences of the European Community (comece) agrees, recommending the directive should say “the minimal weekly rest must include Sunday.”

The amendment stated, “The likelihood of sickness in companies that require staff to work on Sundays is greater than in companies that do not require staff to work on Sundays. The health of workers depends, among other factors, on their opportunities to reconcile work and family life, to establish and maintain social ties and to pursue their spiritual needs. Sunday, as the traditional weekly rest day, contributes to these objectives more than any other day of the week.”

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

Has not our religion been changed then? Have not books of a new order been written ever since containing the "new theology"? Have not the words of inspiration, as found in 1 S.M.204,205, been fulfilled to the very letter?

Is this not the "new organization" we have been warned about and were not the repudiations of our pillars the beginning of the "omega of apostasy" we have been warned about?

sky

First of all, our religion has always been in a state of change, I'd be more interested in seeing a more detailed study of 1SM to see if you are applying it correctly.

Second, I've noticed that too many have defined the "New Theology" as any one who does not believe like I do. Now it does justly apply to the neo-lutheran ideas that have come into the church, but sadly too many people do not limit it's application to that sub group but they place it on anyone who does not believe exactly like they do.

Third, when you look at the so-called New theology (the neo-lutheran) and the so called "Historic Adventists" as they both tend to have aspects of the truth but use it against the rest of the truth. I don't see one group as any better or worst than the other. There are things I like about both groups and there are things about both groups that I am terrorfied of, and some topics (such as the nature of Chirst which both sides have ended up being wrong)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Has not our religion been changed then? Have not books of a new order been written ever since containing the "new theology"? Have not the words of inspiration, as found in 1 S.M.204,205, been fulfilled to the very letter?

Is this not the "new organization" we have been warned about and were not the repudiations of our pillars the beginning of the "omega of apostasy" we have been warned about?

sky

First of all, our religion has always been in a state of change, I'd be more interested in seeing a more detailed study of 1SM to see if you are applying it correctly.

Second, I've noticed that too many have defined the "New Theology" as any one who does not believe like I do. Now it does justly apply to the neo-lutheran ideas that have come into the church, but sadly too many people do not limit it's application to that sub group but they place it on anyone who does not believe exactly like they do.

Third, when you look at the so-called New theology (the neo-lutheran) and the so called "Historic Adventists" as they both tend to have aspects of the truth but use it against the rest of the truth. I don't see one group as any better or worst than the other. There are things I like about both groups and there are things about both groups that I am terrorfied of, and some topics (such as the nature of Chirst which both sides have ended up being wrong)

Kevin, first of all, what exactly are you talking about? The pillars of our faith are not in a constant state of change!!! The pillars of our faith should never have been compromised with to please the wordly churches. By repudiating them, "our religion was changed." 1 S.M.204. Second of all, you Obviously have not taken the time to read the whole thread. And third of all, "Letters to the Churches" is not about any body's idea of what the "new theology" is vs what someone thinks of what "historic adventism" is all about. Letters to the Churches is not a work of fiction. Andreason is dealing with facts. I suggest you read the thread if you haven't. This is about repudiating the pillars of our faith. This is the omega of apostasy which Mrs. White said would be of a most startling nature. And it is because this time it wasn't a lone man acting on his own attacking the pillars of our faith but the leaders of the General Conference meeting with representatives of the churches that constitute Babylon and making concessions to them in order for the denomination to be recognized as a "Christian denomiation" so that it would no longer be categorized by them as an antichristian cult!

sky

By "new theology" it is meant that the leaders in secret meetings adopted or agreed with the theology of the fallen churches concerning the nature of Christ in His humanity, that Christ took the sinless flesh of Adam before the fall, and the teaching that the atonement was complete and final at the cross and also that the keeping of the Sabbath is not binding and the leaders also agreed to not seek to make proselytes among the other churches.

[phkrause]

This is very true Richard. And the reason those Sunday laws will go through very easily will because of all those sunday blue laws that are in place. I've been reading the devotional book by George Knight and it was very interesting to me that back in her time, around the 1880's or maybe a little earlier than that, they already were trying to past Sunday laws. I had never heard that before. Those that voted down I'm guessing, but like I said now that we have lots of Sunday blue laws out there its not hard to foresee them really playing a big part in getting Sunday Laws from them with no problem.

pk

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But has the whole denomination gone over to these teachings Sky?

You are right to educate and warn, I totally agree, we must be able to "understand" these compromises.

But I am not sure the "church" has fallen?

But I am also not sure it "hasn't"...

Mark [/quote']

Mark, the whole thread is not about the people at large who had nothing to do with those secret meetings in which the pillars of our faith were compromised to gain the friendship of the popular churches but about the religious leaders who secretly changed our religion as in the days of Christ when the religious leaders of the people decided to try Jesus in secret.

No it is far from being over as far as the people in general are concerned for the majority have not the slightest idea of what took place in those fateful years. So yes we need to be educated and warned if this is indeed the "omega of apostasy" that we have been warned about.

sky

Thank you for clarifying that.

Do you see the same apostasy still in place amongst the leadership?

Are they still sailing the same course?

Mark

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Thank you for clarifying that.

Do you see the same apostasy still in place amongst the leadership?

Are they still sailing the same course?

Mark

Oh, there may be a few ministers and leading men here and there within our ranks who still hold on to the pillars of our faith just as there are many in the churches who still do but that won't offset what took place in the 1950s. The Lord cannot endorse the work of the General Conference until the present leaders acknowledge before Him the sins of our forefathers (the rejection of the 1888 message and the repudiation of our pillars in the 1950s) and undo what was done. It would require from them a confession to the worldly churches and to the members of our churches of the apostasy that took place. But prophecy tells us that this won't happen anymore than the priests and rulers in the days of Christ were willing to make a public confession of their apostasy by putting to death the Lord of glory.

The fact of the matter is that what took place in the 1950s has never been rectified. It stands and Mrs. White was shown that this apostasy would go from bad to worse until Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven. She was shown by the Lord that "nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement" and that "their foundation would be built upon the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure" just as Jerusalem was swept away by storm and tempest after probation had closed for the Jewish nation.

I believe we are now living in the time of the second and final call to the bidden ones of the parable, namely the Advent People. The rejection of that call will seal the fate of the church (probation for the church will close) and the bearers of the message will, as the disciples of old did in A.D.34, have no other choice but to leave "Judea" and they will turn to the "Gentiles" with their message and it will swell into the loud cry to the world and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the destiny of both good and bad will be forever fixed. This is the time for the great final test (death decree against the faithful few) which will end with the judgment of the living at the close of human probation, and the faithful, who will have received the final seal, will enter into the time of Jacob's trouble. It will also be the great time of trouble for the world.

back to you,

sky

[Guest]

Oh, there may be a few ministers and leading men here and there within our ranks who still hold on to the pillars of our faith just as there are many in the churches who still do but that won't offset what took place in the 1950s. The Lord cannot endorse the work of the General Conference until the present leaders acknowledge before Him the sins of our forefathers (the rejection of the 1888 message and the repudiation of our pillars in the 1950s) and undo what was done. It would require from them a confession to the worldly churches and to the members of our churches of the apostasy that took place. But prophecy tells us that this won't happen anymore than the priests and rulers in the days of Christ were willing to make a public confession of their apostasy by putting to death the Lord of glory.

The fact of the matter is that what took place in the 1950s has never been rectified. It stands and Mrs. White was shown that this apostasy would go from bad to worse until Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven. She was shown by the Lord that "nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement" and that "their foundation would be built upon the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure" just as Jerusalem was swept away by storm and tempest after probation had closed for the Jewish nation.

I believe we are now living in the time of the second and final call to the bidden ones of the parable, namely the Advent People. The rejection of that call will seal the fate of the church (probation for the church will close) and the bearers of the message will, as the disciples of old did in A.D.34, have no other choice but to leave "Judea" and they will turn to the "Gentiles" with their message and it will swell into the loud cry to the world and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the destiny of both good and bad will be forever fixed. This is the time for the great final test (death decree against the faithful few) which will end with the judgment of the living at the close of human probation, and the faithful, who will have received the final seal, will enter into the time of Jacob's trouble. It will also be the great time of trouble for the world.

back to you,

sky

This is my understanding also.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Oh, there may be a few ministers and leading men here and there within our ranks who still hold on to the pillars of our faith just as there are many in the churches who still do but that won't offset what took place in the 1950s. The Lord cannot endorse the work of the General Conference until the present leaders acknowledge before Him the sins of our forefathers (the rejection of the 1888 message and the repudiation of our pillars in the 1950s) and undo what was done. It would require from them a confession to the worldly churches and to the members of our churches of the apostasy that took place. But prophecy tells us that this won't happen anymore than the priests and rulers in the days of Christ were willing to make a public confession of their apostasy by putting to death the Lord of glory.

The fact of the matter is that what took place in the 1950s has never been rectified. It stands and Mrs. White was shown that this apostasy would go from bad to worse until Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven. She was shown by the Lord that "nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement" and that "their foundation would be built upon the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure" just as Jerusalem was swept away by storm and tempest after probation had closed for the Jewish nation.

I believe we are now living in the time of the second and final call to the bidden ones of the parable, namely the Advent People. The rejection of that call will seal the fate of the church (probation for the church will close) and the bearers of the message will, as the disciples of old did in A.D.34, have no other choice but to leave "Judea" and they will turn to the "Gentiles" with their message and it will swell into the loud cry to the world and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the destiny of both good and bad will be forever fixed. This is the time for the great final test (death decree against the faithful few) which will end with the judgment of the living at the close of human probation, and the faithful, who will have received the final seal, will enter into the time of Jacob's trouble. It will also be the great time of trouble for the world.

back to you,

sky

This is my understanding also.

It is definitely something to consider and be aware of.

I personally would like to see the leaders of our church rectify this.

Mark

[skyblue888]

I would too!

[Guest]

Me too! but it won't happen.

[skyblue888]

Nope. How sad.

[Twilight]

It is a shame, but have we ever considered asking the Lord to supply some "Daniels" to serve the church?

Mark

[Twilight]

I also wonder whether it would also be possible to ever have a leadership that is not politically motivated when we have a system where "Pastors" are salaried.

It makes a "career" out of religion, how many would stay in their positions if they had to live by faith like many "pastors" do in China for instance, in the "house churches"?

Not making a position, but discussing the point. :-)

Mark