Letters to the Churches

[Kevin H]

Sunday laws will be the vehichle for the final test, however Mrs. White points to something deeper than mere days, but our typical Adventists ignore her deeper thoughts in favor of superficial traditions. There is a history of the mark of the beast in the Bible and history that we can draw lessons from where we can learn principles to recognize the crisis when it comes. If we depend of superficial traditon the final crisis will come in a way we do not expect.

[Woody]

Quote:

If you just didn't say anything, nobody would know how utterly clueless you are.

Well ... as for me and mine ... we will be ready now. If you think it's safe ... you can wait. I guess you can lead a horse to water ... but you can't make him drink.

[pnattmbtc]

Sunday laws will be the vehichle for the final test, however Mrs. White points to something deeper than mere days, but our typical Adventists ignore her deeper thoughts in favor of superficial traditions. There is a history of the mark of the beast in the Bible and history that we can draw lessons from where we can learn principles to recognize the crisis when it comes. If we depend of superficial traditon the final crisis will come in a way we do not expect.

[John317]

Quote:

If you just didn't say anything, nobody would know how utterly clueless you are.

Well ... as for me and mine ... we will be ready now.

It's true that we all should be-- and can be-- ready NOW for Christ to come today or for death.

But do you see a difference between that and being ready for the end-time events-- including "the sealing" and the test over the mark of the beast-- that will precede the Second Coming?

Those who go through those times will have to be so settled into the truth that they cannot be moved. Their characters will have to be purified and spotless through the washing in the blood of Christ. They will have learned to trust wholly in God and in Christ even during the worst of situations, and they will know close struggles against temptation. They will have separated sin from themselves through faith in the atoning blood of Christ and have conformed their characters to the divine model. (But no, they won't think, "Ah, I've made it.")

This is what we must be doing NOW. This work of faith is what it means to be getting ready for Christ to return. And those who neglect this work of faith are doing so at the most fearful peril to their souls. See GC 623, 427, 428.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

If you just didn't say anything, nobody would know how utterly clueless you are.

Well ... as for me and mine ... we will be ready now.

It's true that we all should be-- and can be-- ready NOW for Christ to come today or for death.

But do you see a difference between that and being ready for the end-time events-- including "the sealing" and the test over the mark of the beast-- that will precede the Second Coming?

Those who go through those times will have to be so settled into the truth that they cannot be moved. Their characters will have to be purified and spotless through the washing in the blood of Christ. They will have learned to trust wholly in God and in Christ even during the worst of situations, and they will know close struggles against temptation. They will have separated sin from themselves through faith in the atoning blood of Christ and have conformed their characters to the divine model. (But no, they won't think, "Ah, I've made it.")

This is what we must be doing NOW. This work of faith is what it means to be getting ready for Christ to return. And those who neglect this work of faith are doing so at the most fearful peril to their souls. See GC 623, 427, 428.

Amen. :-)

We need to receive the seperation from our sins by faith.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

yes. [/quote']

This can be easily proven or disproven. Just do a search in an EGW CD or go to the Ellen White web site and do a search.

I did so ... and came up empty with the above. There is no record of Ellen White ever speaking of a "National Sunday Law" or predicting the enactment of such.

I did a search in my Bible for "Trinity" and for "second coming" and neither of them were found.

hmmm - I am wondering if maybe you and I need to "expand the search criteria" --

And so -- having done that -- I can now go on accepting those not-found-in-the-Bible phrases as accurate labels for the associated Bible teaching.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

John, are you saying that EGW prophecied that there would be National Sunday Laws all over the world?

yes.

[BobRyan]

Regarding Andreason, something to keep in mind is he didn't have a CD Rom, or Internet site to type in some phrase, and then a couple of seconds later see all the references. I recall reading somewhere that he researched some topic for 6 months, searching through all of EGW's books one by one, looking for information on the given subject. So perhaps we might cut him some slack, as opposed to suggesting that he was avoiding references.

Ok - but since things like "Atoning Sacrifice" are found in the conflict of the ages series -- and we know that Andreason was very familiar with that small set of books - he does bear at least a little responsibility for not looking for it before rushing off "Letters to the Churches" accusing his denominational leadership of foul play in that regard.

However my intent was not so much to pound on Andreason -- my intent was to address the band-wagon effect surrounding Andreason's accusations. A number of people jump onto his arguments without checking first to see if they hold water. Given our CD search option that is now expanded out to the entire world via web search online of the Ellen White library, they should be doing at least some fact-checking before backing his accusations against the leaders of his day.

Having said that -- I do agree that Heppenstall and Andreason were in somewhat of a pitched debate, and Heppenstall for his part was engaging in blunders even more serious than Andreason.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

"Atoning sacrifice" does not mean that atonement was made at the cross. It simply means that the condition for the atonement was fulfilled. The atonement began when Christ entered the Holy Place at His ascension.

Bob, I have read your comments and explanations and to me you are doing to Andreason's letters what the leaders wanted to do to the writings of Mrs. White in 1958, add footnotes to explain what Mrs. White meant when saying that the atonement was going on in the sanctuary above. Andreason is not to be faulted in any way, shape, or form. He did everything a Christian should do in a situation like this.

The fault was entirely with the leaders of the G.C. who were determined to put the breaks on those who should try to stop them from doing what they were doing, compromising the pillars of our faith in order to be accepted by the worldly churches.

"Christ's sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The condition for the atonement had been fulfilled." A.A.29.

So it was not the atonement itself that took place on the cross but the condition for it. This is the light that the Lord showed brother Crozier the day after the great disappointment and Mrs. White confirmed this vision.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

"I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Christ was crucified; He was "delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification." Rom.4:25. But unless we are crucified with Him, His death and resurrection profit us nothing. If the cross of Christ is separated from us, and outside of us, even though it be but by so much as a moment of time and an hair's breadth of space, it is to us all the same as if He were not crucified. No one was ever saved simply by looking forward to a cross to be erected and a Christ to be crucified at some indefinite time in the future, and no one can now be saved simply by believing that at a certain time in the past Christ was crucified. No; if men would see Christ crucified, they must look neither forward nor backward, but upward; for the arms of the cross that was erected on Calvary reach from Paradise lost to Paradise restored, and embrace the whole world of sin. The crucifixion of Christ is not a thing of but a single day. He is "the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8, R.V.); and the pangs of Calvary will not be ended as long as a single sin or sinner exists in the universe. Even now Christ bears the sins of the whole world, for "in Him all things consist;" and when at the last He is obliged to cut off the irreclaimably wicked in the lake of fire, the anguish which they suffer will be only that which the Christ whom they have rejected suffered on the cross.

This is one of my favorite quotes. I love the underlined portion (and the rest of the paragraph).

The SOP speaks of the "atonement" as the "at-one-ment," which I think is the right way of looking at it. I think it's much broader in scope than many consider it to be.

[skyblue888]

Before Christ died He said, "It is finished." He had finished the work for which He had come to this earth. The condition for the atonement was fulfilled. When He ascended up on High He began the atonement.

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that of presenting His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Fahter as our Substitute and Surety; for He ascended up on high to make an atonement for our transgressions." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

If the atonement was done at the cross, why would there be a need for Christ to ascend up on high to make an atonement and why would there be a final atonement to be made before He returns in the clouds of heaven?

The very fact that He ascended up on High to make an atonement and that on the 22nd of October 1844 He began the last phase of the atonement shows that the atonement did not take place on the cross.

While He was on earth Christ could not be a Priest. In the type the atonement did not take place until the priest took the blood from the victim and sprinkled it in the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary.

There was no atonement made until Christ entered the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary and pleaded the merits of His blood before the Father in our behalf.

sky

[skyblue888]

For those who may have missed these posts.

In an incomplete research which I conducted years ago I found what the author found, and more. Among other things, I found in a small pamphlet entitled, "A Word to the Little Flock," published by James White in Brunswick, Maine, May 30, 1847, a statement by Sister White on the sanctuary that immediately drew my attention. It is dated April 21, 1847, and written from Topsham, Maine. On page 12, I found these words, which I suppose our Ministry author also found. Says Sister White:

"I believe the Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord showed me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, etc., and that it was His will, that Brother Crozier should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra to every saint. I pray that these lines may prove a blessing to you, and all the dear children who may read them." Signed E.G. White.

I lost no time to get a copy of that Extra and read it. As I write this I have before me a photostatic copy of the Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, and on pages 40 and 41 of that issue I read Brother Crosier's article. After having discussed certain theories in which he does not believe, Brother Crozier observes:

"But again, they say that the atonement was made and finished on Calvary, when the Lamb of God expired. So men have taught us, and so the churches and world believe; but it is none the more true or sacred on that account, if unsupported by Divine authority. Perhaps few or none who hold that opinion have ever tested the foundation on which it rests.

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us.

This, then is the "true light", which the Lord showed Sister White in vision, had His approval, and which she felt fully authorized to recommend to every saint. Only as we downgrade Sister White can we reject this testimony of hers. We are not ready to do this.

We now face this situation. Did our Ministry author in his thorough search find this statement that Brother Crozier had "the true light"? If he did not find it, he has little ground to feel pleased with his work. In either case, if I were a teacher and had sent him to do this research work and he presented the collection in Questions on Doctrine as his report, I would have to give him a straight F, which in school language stands for Failure. It is either a case of poor research, or of omission, which latter, under the circumstances, is most serious.

[Woody]

Yes. The Supreme Court will and has consistently 'acted' on behalf of the Nation to enforce 'nationally' the Sunday Laws. I have no argument with that. It is just as I have been saying. It has been fulfilled. Now ... let's get ready NOW ... not at some later date. Your time could end in the next minute folks. Get to know Jesus NOW. Please don't wait.

[Dr. Rich]

Sorry Redwood, it never happened nationally. It never will either. Please don't hold your breath either.

[Twilight]

Quote:

"I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Christ was crucified; He was "delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification." Rom.4:25. But unless we are crucified with Him, His death and resurrection profit us nothing. If the cross of Christ is separated from us, and outside of us, even though it be but by so much as a moment of time and an hair's breadth of space, it is to us all the same as if He were not crucified. No one was ever saved simply by looking forward to a cross to be erected and a Christ to be crucified at some indefinite time in the future, and no one can now be saved simply by believing that at a certain time in the past Christ was crucified. No; if men would see Christ crucified, they must look neither forward nor backward, but upward; for the arms of the cross that was erected on Calvary reach from Paradise lost to Paradise restored, and embrace the whole world of sin. The crucifixion of Christ is not a thing of but a single day. He is "the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8, R.V.); and the pangs of Calvary will not be ended as long as a single sin or sinner exists in the universe. Even now Christ bears the sins of the whole world, for "in Him all things consist;" and when at the last He is obliged to cut off the irreclaimably wicked in the lake of fire, the anguish which they suffer will be only that which the Christ whom they have rejected suffered on the cross.

This is one of my favorite quotes. I love the underlined portion (and the rest of the paragraph).

The SOP speaks of the "atonement" as the "at-one-ment," which I think is the right way of looking at it. I think it's much broader in scope than many consider it to be.

When I get a moment, I would like to share some of the fundamental aspects of the Cross in the Christian life.

Will be back with this soon hopefully.

Mark :-)

[BobRyan]

For those who may have missed these posts.

In an incomplete research which I conducted years ago I found what the author found, and more. Among other things, I found in a small pamphlet entitled, "A Word to the Little Flock," published by James White in Brunswick, Maine, May 30, 1847