Letters to the Churches

[Guest]

Decided changes are taking place in our world. The Lord has declared that He will turn and overturn. Humble men, who hitherto have been in obscurity, must now be given opportunity to become workers. {CH 539.1}

If the educated and noble would not do the work they were qualified to do, Christ would select men who would be obedient and faithful in doing His will. He chose humble men and connected them with Himself, that He might educate them to carry forward the great work on earth when He should leave it. {CT 512.1}

The message is to be taken up by those who love and fear God. Lay not your burden upon any conference. Go forth, and, as evangelists, in a humble way present a "Thus saith the Scriptures."--Letter 43, 1905. {Ev 24.3}

The apostasy prevailing today is similar to that which in the prophet's day overspread Israel. In the exaltation of the human above the divine, in the praise of popular leaders, in the worship of mammon, and in the placing of the teachings of science above the truths of revelation, multitudes today are following after Baal. Doubt and unbelief are exercising their baleful influence over mind and heart, and many are substituting for the oracles of God the theories of men. {CC 215}

[skyblue888]

It is a shame, but have we ever considered asking the Lord to supply some "Daniels" to serve the church?

Mark

I have considered this aspect many times and have posted about it on other forums at times. It is people like Daniel who will move the arm of the Lord that He may send the latter rain. These individuals will identify themselves with sinful Israel as Daniel did and will plead for the Lord to act. In the days of Christ the Daniels of that day prayed for the descent of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit was poured out their message was not one of condemnation but the offer of mercy, the offer of pardon for having crucified the Lord of glory. Many were offended that they should be called to repentance and they turned upon the bearers of the message. See C.O.L.308,309. History will be repeated. There are those among us who are aware of the apostasies and who are praying for the Lord to send the Holy Spirit in large measure that He may come and do a wonderful work in and through the merits of Christ. See T.M.402.

sky

[skyblue888]

Decided changes are taking place in our world. The Lord has declared that He will turn and overturn. Humble men, who hitherto have been in obscurity, must now be given opportunity to become workers. {CH 539.1}

If the educated and noble would not do the work they were qualified to do, Christ would select men who would be obedient and faithful in doing His will. He chose humble men and connected them with Himself, that He might educate them to carry forward the great work on earth when He should leave it. {CT 512.1}

The message is to be taken up by those who love and fear God. Lay not your burden upon any conference. Go forth, and, as evangelists, in a humble way present a "Thus saith the Scriptures."--Letter 43, 1905. {Ev 24.3}

The apostasy prevailing today is similar to that which in the prophet's day overspread Israel. In the exaltation of the human above the divine, in the praise of popular leaders, in the worship of mammon, and in the placing of the teachings of science above the truths of revelation, multitudes today are following after Baal. Doubt and unbelief are exercising their baleful influence over mind and heart, and many are substituting for the oracles of God the theories of men. {CC 215}

Excellent quotes.

"There has been a departure from God among us, and the zealous work of repentance and return to our first love essential to restoration to God and regeneration of heart has not yet been done. Infidelity has been making its inroads into our ranks; for it is the fashion to depart from Christ, and give place to skepticism. With many the cry of the heart has been, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.' Baal, Baal, is the choice. The religion of many among us will be the religion of apostate Israel, because they love their own way, an forsake the way of the Lord. The true religion, the only religion of the Bible, that teaches forgiveness through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, that advocates righteousness by the faith of the Son of God, has been slighted, spoken against, ridiculed, and rejected. It has been denounced as leading to enthusiasm and fanaticism. But it is the life of Christ in the soul, it is the active principle of love imparted by the Holy Spirit, that alone will make the soul fruitful unto good works." T.M.467,468.

This statement is in reference to the message of forgiveness and righteousness of Christ through exercising faith in His all-sufficient merits.

"We are living in the last days of this earth's history, and we may be surprised at notning in the line of apostasies and denials of the truth. Unbelief has now come to be a fine art, which men work at to the destruction of their souls." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.180.

[skyblue888]

I also wonder whether it would also be possible to ever have a leadership that is not politically motivated when we have a system where "Pastors" are salaried.

It makes a "career" out of religion, how many would stay in their positions if they had to live by faith like many "pastors" do in China for instance, in the "house churches"?

Not making a position, but discussing the point. :-)

Mark

I don't see anything wrong with them receiving wages but if they don't proclaim the truth as it is in Jesus, the truths for our time, they will have to answer for every penny they have spent.

"Today, as in the days of Malachi, there are ministers who labor, not because they dare not do otherwise, not because the woe is upon them, but for the wages they are to receive. It is entirely wrong to hire every errand that is done for the Lord. The treasury of the Lord has been drained by those who have been only an injury to the cause. If ministers give themselves wholly to the work of God, and devote all their energies to building up His cause, will have no lack. As regards temporal things, they have a better protion than their Lord, and better than His chosen disciples, whom He sent forth." SW Jan.3, 1905.

sky

[BobRyan]

M.L. Andreason died here in North Carolina after the conference took away his livelyhood. He would have probably starved to death if certain caring members hadn't of helped him out.

Here is an audio sermon by M.L. Andreason. It's called: "Andreason meets the Prophet"

http://delongdirect.com/sermons/SERMONS/M.%20L.%20Andreason/

1. Revoking his retirement pay was criminal. The GC has since passed rules such that no such thing can ever happen again.

2. Thanks for the audio link - I was interested to hear him.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Letters to the Churches

Part 3

WHAT WAS DONE AT THE CONFERENCES?

For a report of this we are confined almost entirely to the published account in Eternity. The subject that took up much of the time at the conferences was that of the sanctuary. Dr. Barnhouse was frank in his estimate of this doctrine. In particular did he object to our teaching on the investigative judgment which he characterized as "the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history." Later he called it "the unimportant and almost naive doctrine of the investigative judgment." Eternity, September, 1956.

Dr. Barnhouse, in discussing Hiram Edson's explanation of the disappointment in 1844, says that the assumption that Christ "has a work to perform in the most holy place before coming to this earth... is a human, face-saving idea (which) some uninformed adventists... carried to fantastic, literalistic extremes. Mr. Martin and I heard the Adventists leaders say, flatly, that they repudiated all such extremes. This they said in no uncertain terms. Further, they do not believe, as some of their earlier teachers taught that Jesus' atoning work was not completed on Calvary, but instead that He was still carrying on a second ministerial work since 1844. This idea is also totally repudiated." Ibid.

Note these statements: The idea that Christ "had a work to perform in the most holy place before coming to this earth... is a human, face-saving idea." Mr. Martin and I heard the Adventist leaders say flatly that they repudiated such extremes. This they said in no uncertain terms."

I think it is due the denomination to have a clear-cut statement from our leaders if Dr. Barnhouse and Mr. Martin told the truth when they heard our leaders say that they repudiated the idea that Christ had a work to do in the second apartment before coming to this earth. This question demands a clear-cut answer.

Some points of clarification.

1. Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" written as a summary evaluation and response to "Questions on Doctrine" Does conclude that Adventist doctrine is not that of a cult -- but does NOT AGREE with Adventist doctrine in so doing. In fact Martin devotes page after page to objecting to Adventist doctrine in his book. However he was not in a position to argue "every Christian denomination that differs with me is a cult" (see all the varying differences within the various denominations).

2. The Investigative Judgment doctrine presented by Adventists to Walter Martin was rejected by Martin as a false teaching. He thought it was error and said so in his book review of Adventists in "Kingdom of the Cults". So there was no such thing as coming up with an IJ doctrine that Martin or Barnhouse agreed to. (see Martin p 476-483 for his refutation of our doctrine on the IJ)

3. The term "atonement" needed a common definition because Adventists used the term one way -- and most Christian groups defined it another way. You need to get your nominclature agreed upon to make any sense out of "we agree with you on this teaching but we differ with you on that one".

Define terms -- step 1.

4. So far Andreason suspects changes were made to some of Ellen White's books - but does not know what changes.

If you change our doctrine in a way that is "not detectible even by Adventists" then what substance does that change have?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Letters to the Churches

Part 4

THE ATONEMENT

...

About the time when the two men first visited the vault, a series of articles appeared in the Ministry which claimed to be "the Adventist understanding of the atonement, confirmed and illuminated and clarified by the Spirit of Prophecy." In the February issue, 1957, the statement occurs that the "sacrificial act on the cross (is) a complete, perfect, and final atonement for man's sin."

This pronouncement is in harmony with the belief of our leaders, as Dr. Barnhouse quoted them. It is also in harmony with a statement signed by a chief officer in a personal letter:

"You cannot, brother Andreason, take away from us this precious teaching that Jesus made a complete and all-sufficient atoning sacrifice on the cross... This we shall ever hold fast, and continue to proclaim it, even as our dear venerated forefathers in the faith."

It would be interesting if the writer would produce proof of his assertion.

[BobRyan]

Letters to the Churches

PART 6

THE HUMAN NATURE OF CHRIST

It may interest the reader to know how the new theology regarding the human nature of Christ came to be accepted by the leaders, and how it came to be included in QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINE, and thus receive official standing.

The question of the nature of Christ while in the flesh is one of the foundation pillars of Christianity. On this doctrine hangs the destiny of man. The apostle John makes it a deciding factor by saying, "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." "And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." 1 John 4:2,3.

In what kind of flesh did Jesus come to this earth? "Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." Desire of Ages, p.117. "Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

[BobRyan]

John, are you saying that EGW prophecied that there would be National Sunday Laws all over the world?

yes.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding Andreason, something to keep in mind is he didn't have a CD Rom, or Internet site to type in some phrase, and then a couple of seconds later see all the references. I recall reading somewhere that he researched some topic for 6 months, searching through all of EGW's books one by one, looking for information on the given subject. So perhaps we might cut him some slack, as opposed to suggesting that he was avoiding references.

[Guest]

I agree with cutting some slack for Andreason. He was a man of God.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

John, are you saying that EGW prophecied that there would be National Sunday Laws all over the world?

yes.

This can be easily proven or disproven. Just do a search in an EGW CD or go to the Ellen White web site and do a search.

I did so ... and came up empty with the above. There is no record of Ellen White ever speaking of a "National Sunday Law" or predicting the enactment of such.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

yes. [/quote']

This can be easily proven or disproven. Just do a search in an EGW CD or go to the Ellen White web site and do a search.

I did so ... and came up empty with the above. There is no record of Ellen White ever speaking of a "National Sunday Law" or predicting the enactment of such.

Study the following: Last Day Events, pp. 128, 129, 135.

There you will find the following quotes:

"When our nation shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery."

"Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the papacy. BY A NATIONAL ACT ENFORCING THE FALSE SABBATH they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience..... The prophecy of Rev. 13... will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance..." LDE 128, 129. See also p. 134.

Not only will the Sunday law be "national" in the US but it will eventually be "universal." "All nations and tongues and peoples will be commanded to worship this spurious Sabbath... The decree enforcing the worship of this day is to go forth to ALL THE WORLD." p. 135.

[Guest]

The United States Will Pass a Sunday Law

Soon the Sunday laws will be enforced, and men in positions of trust will be embittered against the little handful of God's commandment-keeping people.--4MR 278 (1909). {LDE129}

The prophecy of Revelation 13 declares that the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns shall cause "the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the papacy--there symbolized by the beast "like unto a leopard." . . . This prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. . . . {LDE 129}

[Dr. Rich]

So John, are you telling me that you actually believe that the Pope and Protestantism will force all of the Islam nations to keep a National Sunday Law? Hmmmm?

[Guest]

Absolutely NOT. We believe YOU Rich!

[skyblue888]

"As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the Papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honour the false sabbath, the people of every country of the globe will be led to follow her example."

"Foreign nations will follow the example of the United States. Though she leads out, yet the same crisis will come upon our people in all parts of the world." Testimonies, Vol.6, pp.18,395.

[John317]

So John, are you telling me that you actually believe that the Pope and Protestantism will force all of the Islam nations to keep a National Sunday Law? Hmmmm?

I believe exactly what the Bible and Ellen White say on the topic. There will eventually be a worldwide law passed and enforced causing all the world to do homage to the beast and its image.

And yes, it will involve all peoples, including Muslims and Hindus, etc. The world conditions will be such that all the world will cooperate. It doesn't mean they will become Catholics but it does mean that they will accept the authority of the beast power and its image. Its mark of authority is the false Sabbath.

You used to believe this too, didn't you? You have moved away considerably from doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I'm sure you're not unaware of this.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-19.htm

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-18.htm

Quote:

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God.GC 605

[Woody]

Strange that with all you scholars out there and no one can find where she ever used the term "National Sunday Law" as stated in the above posts? Hmmm.

Ellen White never spoke of a National Sunday Law nor it's enforcement. All of your quotes are just speaking of national enforcement of Sunday laws. But not of a national Law.

This enforcement is what we have had for many many years. The prediction has already been fulfilled.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly enforced at the National level ... the Sunday laws enacted at the State and local levels.

Time to start praising God.

[Guest]

Pro 17:28 Even a fool, when he holds his peace, is counted wise: and he that shuts his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

[John317]

Strange that with all you scholars out there and no one can find where she ever used the term "National Sunday Law" as stated in the above posts?

She used language that has the same significance:

"When our nation shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery."

"Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the papacy. BY A NATIONAL ACT ENFORCING THE FALSE SABBATH they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience..... The prophecy of Rev. 13... will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance..." LDE 128, 129. See also p. 134

What is a "national act enforcing" Sunday observance but a national Sunday law?

Notice she says "the United States"-- "our nation"-- "shall enforce Sunday observance." That can only mean it is not merely a state or local law but a "national" law, or "act." She says the whole nation will be involved, and eventually the entire world. Clearly that is "national" and "international" law.

[skyblue888]

Right on.

[Woody]

Quote:

Notice she says "the United States"-- "our nation"-- "shall enforce Sunday observance." That can only mean it is not merely a state or local law but a "national" law, or "act."

There is no doubt ... the Supreme Court HAS already acted on behalf of the Nation. It IS enforcing the Sunday Laws. It is a done deal. Our nation ... 'through' the acts of the Highest Courts in the land ... are 'enforcing' the Sunday laws.

The time is NOW to know your God. NOT at some later date when you see some supposed National Sunday Law that Ellen White never mentions.

All these end time events serve no purpose except to lull one to sleep. Time to wake up folks. Prepare to meet your God ... TODAY. NOT tomorrow.

[Dr. Rich]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

[Guest]

There is no doubt ... the Supreme Court HAS already acted on behalf of the Nation. It IS enforcing the Sunday Laws. It is a done deal. Our nation ... 'through' the acts of the Highest Courts in the land ... are 'enforcing' the Sunday laws.

The time is NOW to know your God. NOT at some later date when you see some supposed National Sunday Law that Ellen White never mentions.

If you just didn't say anything, nobody would know how utterly clueless you are.