Last Day Events (Sunday Law)

[Dr. Rich]

Did EGW write this?: "It is not the way of God to force anyone to do anything. God desires only willing and cheerful obedience." Hmmmm??

I guess He forgot about this when He knocked Saul of his horse and made him go blind. Interesting

[skyblue888]

That could be looked at from a superficial point of view but God knew Saul's heart. Saul was sincere and fully believed that he was serving God when he was persecuting the saints. God did not force him to believe but simply used that occasion to reason with him. He was converted as a result. He could have rebelled against the vision. He was still free to accept the revelation or to reject it. He was humbled by the revelation and followed His Lord ever after.

sky

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 11

THE ROLE OF SPIRITUALISM

In the work of restoration of the Beast and his Image in these last days, the role of spiritualism is not to be overlooked, for it will play a major part in this return to power of ecclesiastical oppression.

"Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world... little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism... Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil." The Great Controversy, pp.561, 558.

In Matthew 24:24, we are warned that in the last days "There shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The ones against whom we are warned, appearing in plural numbers in these last days are false Christs and false prophets. They come not as open enemies of the truth, but as counterfeits of the real. Among those who are opposed to God's living truths are men so polite, courteous, helpful, calm and nice that you would ask yourself, "How could such a person ever be the enemy of God? Outwardly he bears all the marks of conversion. Surely from all I can see of this man he is a true child of God."

But do not be deceived. That is not the test. The ministers of unrighteousness come among us as angels of light to deceive and draw back God's people. In these last days we will have miracles, genuine, undeniable miracles of apparent conversions, worked by Satan's ministers. They will teach a message which appears to be the doctrine of Christ. It will look the same and sound the same, but God's true people will know by His Word that it is not the same because there are distinct differences.

"Genius, sympathy, even generous deeds, may become decoys of Satan to entice other souls over the precipice of ruin for this life and the life to come." Mount of Blessing, pp.94,95.

"To a superficial observer, persons who are naturally amiable, who are educated and refine, may appear perfect in life,"(Faith and Works, p.32) but do not be deceived, for "I saw that the mysterious signs and wonders, and false reformations would increase, and spread. The reformations that were shown me, were not reformations from error to truth, but from bad to worse; for those who professed a change of heart, had only wrap about them a religious garb, which covered up the iniquity of a wicked heart. Some appeared to have been really converted, as to deceive God's people, but if their hearts could be seen, they would appear as black as ever." E.G. White, Present Truth, Aug.1849, pp.21,22.

In the book of Revelation, it is made clear that there will be in the final and finishing conflict, a vast gathering of the powers of earth, and that this gathering will be accomplished through the work of the spirits of devils, WORKING MIRACLES. It is also made clear that this vast confederacy of earthly power will be gathered together in opposition against the God of Heaven and against the Lamb, but that in the end the Lord will be the victor in the battle. See Isaiah 8:9-16.

Now these very same miracle working spirits of devils will be the prime agency in the bringing into being the Image of the Beast. This is expressly stated in Revelation 13:11-18. What is this fire that comes down from heaven (first heaven of course)?

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 12

THE ROLE OF SPIRITUALISM PART 2

Today men in the religious world are looking for the fulfilment of the second Pentecost. In Joel 2:28-32, is foretold the mighty outpouring of the Spirit in the last days. When this true work comes it will be the work of the true Christ and His workers, and the Devil and his evil spirits of devils fear the mighty power to be exercised in this movement.

They will work with all their deceptive power to mislead souls. To do this they will seek to counterfeit the real before it comes so that many will be misled and deceived into a snare before the real movement comes. In this way they miss out on the true because they have become part of the false:

"I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventist and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and lead them to think that God is still working for the churches. But the light will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take their stand with the remnant." Early Writings, p.261.

The above prophecy from the Book of Joel has already had a fulfilment in the experience of the Apostles at Pentecost. On that day, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and therefore speaking the truth of God, Peter said, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16. It was in that day when the words of Joel were first fulfilled that "fire came down from Heaven in the sight of men" as a testimony that the Holy Spirit had come in power on the people of God. That was a demonstration of the way in which this prophecy was to be fulfilled and the devil knows it. Inasmuch as he is determined to appear as Christ with the power of God, he will make it appear that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has come, that Pentecost is being repeated.

The coming down of the fire from heaven which marked the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, was immediately followed by miracles of healing. Likewise we can expect to see miracles of healing sweeping through those churches who, having rejected the light of truth and the message of Sabbath reform, have opened the door to the inroads of spiritualism. And in these expectations we shall not be disappointed in our trust of the sure word of prophecy, for already this thing is being fulfilled before our very eyes. Today there is present in many of the churches a movement of power associated with which are miracles of healing so genuine as to be undeniable.

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men and deceived them that dwell upon the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword and did live."

So the whole objective of the bringing of false fire from heaven, the whole objective of working miracles and therefore, the whole objective of the spirits of devils in the last days is to bring into existence the formation of the Image of the Beast.

to be continued

[Dr. Rich]

EGW wrote: "Today men in the religious world are looking for the fulfillment of the second Pentecost. In Joel 2:28-32, is foretold the mighty outpouring of the Spirit in the last days."

Since the first Pentecost was the great event Satan used to appear as the Holy Spirit and deceive the new church, (as he deceived Eve), these people today who are looking for a fulfillment of a second Pentecost will get it--that is they will be deceived just as those in the first Pentecost.

John 20:22 presents the real truth on how the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples. Please don't be fooled again!

[John317]

... the first Pentecost was the great event Satan used to appear as the Holy Spirit and deceive the new church...

Where is the evidence in the book of Acts that your statement here is true?

[John317]

Did EGW write this?: "It is not the way of God to force anyone to do anything. God desires only willing and cheerful obedience." Hmmmm??

I guess He forgot about this when He knocked Saul of his horse and made him go blind. Interesting

What God did to Saul is similar to the farmer who hits the mule over the head with a 2x4 to get its attention. Paul was free to obey or disobey. Paul only writes of his joy at what God did on the road to Damascus. One doesn't get the impression that Paul is unhappy about it. Paul had only willing service for God. Once he knew who Jesus is, Paul couldn't run fast or hard enough to do God's will. He was willing to spend and be spent for His Lord.

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 13

THE THREEFOLD UNION

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deception. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism, and they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this three fold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling the rights of conscience." The Great Controversy, p.588; please read 552-560.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Rev.16:13-14.

"Many will be confronted by the spirits of devils personating beloved relatives or friends and declaring the most dangerous heresies. These visitants will appeal to our tenderest sympathies and will work miracles to sustain their pretensions. We must be prepared to withstand them with the Bible truth that "the dead know not anything" and that they who thus appear are the spirits of devils... The Apostles, as personated by these lying spirits, are made to contradict what they wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit when on earth." The Great Controversy, pp.560,557.

We have the plainest warning that through the teaching of the immortality of the soul, the spirits of devils will make fire come down from heaven, which is to make it appear that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. With equal clarity we have been warned that the spirits of devils have power to do miracles in the sight of men. Therefore we know that it is not safe to accept every appearance of the "Holy Spirit" and every miracle as a witness of the presence of the power of God. More likely it is the counterfeit abroad in its work of deception.

That this is not the work of the Spirit of God is evident from the fact that these people have rejected the message of truth for this time. They are of those who, having rejected the messages of God sent to the churches in the 1844 period, have fallen lower and lower and further and further into the grip of spiritualism.

"The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves, and are ready to join with them; and Satan determines to unite them in one body, and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of Spiritualism. Catholics, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this miracle working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deceived. Catholics, Protestants and worldlings, will alike accept the form of godliness without the power and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long expected millenium." The Great Controversy, pp.588,589.

But the true people of God will not be deceived. They will know that the work of these forces will be upholding error and not truth. But when Jesus at last appears in the clouds of heaven, then the true children of God will say, "Lo, this is our God. We have waited for Him. We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation." Isaiah 25:9.

to be continued

[BobRyan]

EGW wrote: "Today men in the religious world are looking for the fulfillment of the second Pentecost. In Joel 2:28-32, is foretold the mighty outpouring of the Spirit in the last days."

Since the first Pentecost was the great event Satan used to appear as the Holy Spirit and deceive the new church, (as he deceived Eve), these people today who are looking for a fulfillment of a second Pentecost will get it--that is they will be deceived just as those in the first Pentecost.

John 20:22 presents the real truth on how the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples. Please don't be fooled again!

[BobRyan]

Richard, what Sky presented here on this thread is actually fiction. It does sound good and it is easy to become afraid of things by reading this, but it is from someone who is now dead and therefore did not understand end time events as prophesied by God in Daniel 12:10.

...

Now you can call this fiction too, but we all shall see for ourselves very shortly. This is only my opinion.

I always wondered how Rich thought the gift of prophecy worked -- I guess now we know.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Graham Maxwell says:

"Obedience from fear springs the heart of a rebel".

I have always enjoyed Graham Maxwell's stories.

Bob

[Stewart (SDA)]

EGW wrote: "Today men in the religious world are looking for the fulfillment of the second Pentecost. In Joel 2:28-32, is foretold the mighty outpouring of the Spirit in the last days."

Since the first Pentecost was the great event Satan used to appear as the Holy Spirit and deceive the new church, (as he deceived Eve), these people today who are looking for a fulfillment of a second Pentecost will get it--that is they will be deceived just as those in the first Pentecost.

John 20:22 presents the real truth on how the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples. Please don't be fooled again!

If we have been so greatly deceived, Dr. Rich, and are calling darkness "light", then we are in real danger of being lost.

For "woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isa 5:20)

But if we are in the light, and rightly divide the word of God on such things, then it may be well for you to remain among us.

Stewart.

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 14

CALAMITIES AND DISASTERS

There is yet another means that the Devil use in his effort to bring all the people into subjection to himself and that is the instrument of calamity and trouble. While on the one hand through spiritualism he heals the people and thus appears as the benefactor of the race, on the other hand he works in his true role of destroyer.

This is brought to view very clearly in the way in which he afflicted Job, the servant of God. It was he who swept away all of Job's possessions but it was God who was blamed for it by those who came to see and to "comfort" Job. But Satan was able to go only so far as the Lord allowed him and no more. So today, still, "It is God that shields His creatures, and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world has shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would, He will withdraw His blessings from the earth, and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law; and teaching and forcing others to do the same." The Great Controversy, p.589.

This leaves the door open for Satan to work his will. He will not treat all the same as it will best suit his purpose. "Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favour and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others, and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them." Ibid, p.589.

In the book of Job we have some revelation of the power of Satan to control the elements of nature. There storm and tempest came at his call to sweep the possessions of God's faithful servant. Since that time his learning and skill have advanced and he has even more power to destroy today. Thus we read, "While appearing to the children of men as the great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster until populous cities are reduced to ruin and to destruction. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hail-storms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away. The haughty people do languish. The earth is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, broken the everlasting covenant." Isa.24:4,5; The Great Controversy, p.590.

It is Satan's constant effort to make it appear that these calamities and disasters are visited upon the earth by the direct decree of God. But "It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." Ibid, pp.35,36.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 15

MISPLACED BLAME

"And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils." Ibid, 590. This is the very opposite of the truth. It is just as much the opposite of the truth as the charge to be made that the desecration of Sunday will be the cause of the wide-spread wickedness and immorality in the world.

But it will be believed and the natural reaction will be to war against those who stand for the truth as it is in Jesus. This will be but to throw off still further the protection of God and to open the door for Satan to bring more trouble on the one hand and on the other to lead to still greater wickedness in the land, which will lead to still greater pressure for the Sunday Law and so on in an ever steepening spiral to the one possible end, the setting up of the Image of the Beast.

Thus it is that all these diabolical forces are working toward this end. The mighty power of spiritualism masquerading as true religion will be the great motivating and unifying force in the movement. And it will succeed to a point and for a short period of time. Of this we will learn more as we proceed in this study.

to be continued

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Graham Maxwell says:

"Obedience from fear springs the heart of a rebel".

I have always enjoyed Graham Maxwell's stories.

Bob

That was a low blow.

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 16

BABYLON THE GREAT

We have seen first of all the rise of the powers of darkness in the beast and his image. While the devil is marshalling his forces, the Lord is also preparing His. It is a sad picture wherein the armies of the Lord cause many delays by their failure to measure up to the standards the Lord requires and generations pass away before the Lord finally has the army prepared.

For this reason the four winds of strife are held in check until this preparation is complete and then will be released the powers of heaven and earth for this last great conflict between the beast and his image on the one hand, and the armies of the living God on the other hand. This will be the final and the finishing conflict which will ring down the curtain on this earth's history and usher in the glorious second coming of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. It is a conflict in which everyone of us is going to be involved should we live the short period of time until it comes, whether we like it or not. In this conflict every man, woman and child is going to have to take a stand on the one side or the other. There will be no neutrals then. The very force of the pressures of the great controversy will demand this to be so, and each must and will have to give his answer the one way or the other. Therefore, the subject of that conflict must be one which is of vital interest to all who live upon the earth at this time.

The issues in this warfare are spiritual, but this is not to say that the weapons of force are not going to be employed by those who are accustomed to gaining their ends by these means. But on the side of the Lord, the weapons will be spiritual and not carnal, and God, through His faithful few, will resist the powers of darkness by the proclamation of a mighty and a powerful message, which message is contained in the first part of Revelation 18.

As we are interested in the order of last day events here, let us look at this Scripture from that point of view. Considerable light is thrown on the matter by comparing it with a very similar message which is found in Revelation 14:8. This is the message of the second angel, "preached in the summer of 1844." The Great Controversy, p. 389. Its proclamation followed the sounding forth of the first angel's message which went before it. As a result of the rejection of that message, "The churches then experienced a moral fall in consequence of their refusal of the light of the Advent Message." Ibid, 389.

But note this point with care, it is a simple fact of history that that message could not go until it could be proclaimed as present truth in very truth. God does not lie in His messages. They speak the truth, so therefore, when He sends a message that Babylon is fallen, then that message does not come until Babylon is fallen.

This then brings us to the point where we can compare with profit the second angel's message of Revelation 14:8, and the message of the angel of Revelation 18:1-4. At first they may seem to be identical but there is a very vital difference and it is this, the second angel announces that Babylon is fallen, while the fourth angel announces that Babylon The Great is fallen. It is very much in order here to raise the question as to what difference there is between Babylon and Babylon the Great.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 17

BABYLON THE GREAT (continues)

"Babylon" is the Bible name given to apostate and corrupt forms of religion at war with God, just as the term "Israel" is the identifying name given to the loyal and true people of God. And, in the New Testament period through to the coming of Christ, these two, Babylon and Israel, uphold respectively the same principles, evil and righteousness, as were held by the Babylon and the Israel of the Old Testament.

We well understand that the Papacy and ancient Rome, held the principles of Babylon and in unrighteousness warred against God and His truth in the person of His saints. But they were not the Babylon which fell in 1844. The Babylon which fell at that time was the Protestant Churches to whom God had sent the light of truth and who flatly refused to receive that truth.

It follows then that if the term Babylon applies to a part of the whole, then the term Babylon The Great must apply to the whole of that mighty kingdom. In other words, as we look at a part of the kingdom, we can truthfully say that this is Babylon, but when we look at the whole of that mighty confederacy of evil against the Lord of Heaven, we can only say, this is Babylon the Great.

The message of the angel of Revelation 18 is concerned with Babylon the Great and announces that she is fallen. Therefore, in the light of the above facts in regard to the message of the first and second angel's messages, it is evident that that message cannot and will not go under God's direction and leadership, until the fact of it is accomplished and it can be stated in very truth that Babylon the Great is fallen.

This immediately raises the question as to whether this is already present truth or is it a situation yet to be reached. There are always those who run ahead of the Lord, and it is needful that we test their claims by the word of the living God.

We learn from the book The Great Controversy page 603, that that message was still future at the time of the writing of this last edition in 1911. After quoting the scripture from Revelation 18:1-4, the text goes on to say, "This Scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14, is to be repeated with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given in the summer of 1844."

The time referred to in the above statement is not a moment of time but a period of time. It is the period of time, as yet of unknown length, during which the message goes forward announcing the fall of Babylon the Great and calling on the true people of God to come out of her. It was still future at the time of the writing of the above, but for how long in the future? Inasmuch as we know that there will never be another message based on definite time, (7 BC 971; 1 S.M.188) then we cannot expect that we shall be informed anywhere of the exact date, but we can expect to be told of the exact conditions which will bring Babylon the Great to the place where the message can go forth in truth that she is fallen.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Order of Last Day Events

Post # 18

BABYLON THE GREAT (continues)

Let us then begin to trace the evidence telling this to us. On the very next page to that quoted above we read, "Of Babylon, at the time brought to view in this prophecy, it is declared, 'Her sins have reached unto heaven and God hath remembered her iniquities.' She has filled up the measure of her guilt and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of His judgments, these faithful ones must be called out that they 'partake not of her sins and receive none of her plagues.'"

The time brought to view in this prophecy is the time when the message goes forth that Babylon the Great is fallen. It is therefore also the time when the condition will have been reached when the sins of Babylon have reached as high as heaven and she will have filled up the measure of her guilt. There is coming a time when the whole of Babylon in one vast confederacy will have come to the place where they will have reached the limit of rebellion against the God of Heaven.

And we are able to ascertain from the prophetic word just what event will bring them to the place where their sins will have reached unto heaven. Here are two statements, which, when read together give us the information we are seeking. In the first one you will read that the law of God is to be made void when the Sunday law is passed. This is the time of the setting up of the image of the Beast as we learned earlier in this series. Then the second statement tells us that the sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void. Those words then tell us as plainly as it ever could be told that the point of time when Babylon the Great is finally fallen is that point of time when the law of God is made void in the land by the enforcement of the Sunday law, by which act they fill up the measure of their guilt and their sins will reach unto heaven above. Read the truth of it in these statements.

"A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in the land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people will be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

"The sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void, when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land. In exalting an institution of man above the institution ordained of God, they show contempt for the great Lawgiver, and refuse His sign or seal." Review and Herald, Nov.5, 1899.

In addition to the above there is also the statement from Testimonies Volume 5:451, where the same truth is expressed as follows, "By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness."

To disconnect one's self from righteousness is to come where one can go no further in departing from the living God. This is to fill up the measure of iniquity and guilt and to have one's sins reach unto heaven itself. And when will this be accomplished? It will be accomplished by the making of the decree which will enforce the worship of the institution of the Papacy which we know to be the enforcement of the Sunday law.

to be continued

[Dr. Rich]

Of course God knows people's hearts, but Saul was a totally wicked person. You can't tell anyone what God was thinking so this is just your opinion just at it is my opinion. Jesus did say He was going to His Father and would not be back until the second coming. Therefore whoever it was speaking to Saul as Jesus had to be a liar.

[Dr. Rich]

Look who wrote the book of Acts, John. All of Acts was hearsay. If you want to believe in hearsay, then you can also listen to what the TV preachers preach today.

As for your argument on the event of Saul being blinded, it does not hold any water. It is totally irrelevant.

[Dr. Rich]

Stewart, how can one call the words of Jesus to be evil? I don't. Do you believe the words of Mohammad are evil? I do, yet millions don't. What is the difference between Mohammad and Paul? Neither of them knew Jesus Christ personally. Both believed the visions they received were from God. Both started religious organizations that numbers in the millions, yet they both can't be the truth. I find this interesting.

[John317]

Saul was a totally wicked person.

We can certainly agree that Saul was a wicked person-- the chief of sinners. He would not deny it. In fact, Saul readily confirmed it. He was worthy of eternal death. So are you and I. At least I know that of myself I am worthy of eternal death.

So to say that Saul was a totally wicked person is not news to anyone, least of all to God or to Saul.

But God justifies the unrighteous and makes them into righteous people through His unmerited favor and by the power of the Holy Spirit. In this way God raises the dead-- both those who are literally dead and those who are spiritually so.

The record is that God showed a vision to a man named Ananias, in which God revealed that Paul would have to suffer many things for Christ's sake. Everything God showed Ananias is confirmed by history. Paul went on to make many converts to Christ and to finally die for His Savior. Even though dead, the great apostle's inspired letters continue to speak to us from the grave and through them the Spirit proves the creative power of God to change the worst of criminals into dedicated servants of His Son.

Saul was a brand pulled from the fire. He freely and joyfully acknowledged Christ as His Lord and Savior and gladly suffered for Him-- even to the point of martyrdom. He was a wicked man, yes, but one whose life demonstrates the power of God to change slaves of Satan into slaves of righteousness.

[Dr. Rich]

I don't find anywhere in the bible where Jesus told us that God justifies the unrighteous and makes them into righteous people through His unmerited favor and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Are you just making this stuff up John317? And what do we know of Ananias? All hearsay isn't it? Peter, James and John as the other disciples were alive about then were they not? Then if this actually was Jesus talking to Saul why didn't the command say to go see one of them?

There is no argument that Paul had a great following--but that alone does not make one a true apostle or prophet of God. Paul's gospel, that he agreed was his alone, was one of righteousness by faith and not works. For those who don't feel the need to keep all of the ten commandments, this is truly good news, even though it is mistakenly wrong. The opposite of Paul's gospel is the gospel according to Muhammad.

Putting this in prospective, it appears to me that the prophecy about the king of the north verses the king of the south could be or might involve these two different gospels. Didn't God say they both were evil?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Saul was a totally wicked person.

We can certainly agree that Saul was a wicked person-- the chief of sinners. He would not deny it. In fact, Saul readily confirmed it. He was worthy of eternal death. So are you and I. At least I know that of myself I am worthy of eternal death.

So to say that Saul was a totally wicked person is not news to anyone, least of all to God or to Saul.

But God justifies the unrighteous and makes them into righteous people through His unmerited favor and by the power of the Holy Spirit. In this way God raises the dead-- both those who are literally dead and those who are spiritually so.

The record is that God showed a vision to a man named Ananias, in which God revealed that Paul would have to suffer many things for Christ's sake. Everything God showed Ananias is confirmed by history. Paul went on to make many converts to Christ and to finally die for His Savior. Even though dead, the great apostle's inspired letters continue to speak to us from the grave and through them the Spirit proves the creative power of God to change the worst of criminals into dedicated servants of His Son.

Saul was a brand pulled from the fire. He freely and joyfully acknowledged Christ as His Lord and Savior and gladly suffered for Him-- even to the point of martyrdom. He was a wicked man, yes, but one whose life demonstrates the power of God to change slaves of Satan into slaves of righteousness.

Amen John!

You have just described the spirit of the Gospel.

Praise God!

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[Guest]

After his baptism, Paul broke his fast and remained "certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God." Boldly he declared Jesus of Nazareth to be the long-looked-for Messiah, who "died for our sins according to the Scriptures; . . . was buried, and . . . rose again the third day," after which He was seen by the Twelve and by others. "And last of all," Paul added, "He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4, 8. His arguments from prophecy were so conclusive, and his efforts were so manifestly attended by the power of God, that the Jews were confounded and unable to answer him. {AA 123.1}