"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

4 But because of his great love [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus....

Note, Paul says that when you were a sinner, living for the flesh, God saved YOU by grace. Deal with this....

Again, compare the two:

Verse 1: As for you [Paul is writing to the Ephesians], you were dead in your transgressions and sins....

Yes, the Ephesian believers were [past tense] under the curse. They were under the sentence of death (i.e., the 2nd death).

But notice again when Christ saved these believers....Take note of that phrase, "dead in your transgressions and sins".

Verse 4 God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us [past tense] alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions --it is by grace you have been saved

[Robert]

We are [were] not saved in the past though Jesus died for all.

Paul disagrees with you....Stay to the context of Eph chapter 2

[skyblue888]

These provisions won't amount to anything at all unless the sinner appropriates the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ NOW!

"Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor.6:2.

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97.

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, THE SINNER CAN NO MORE BE DAVED than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93,

sky

[Robert]

These provisions won't amount to anything at all unless the sinner appropriates the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ NOW! sky

Again, you are in opposition to Paul who said Christ saved us by grace when we were sinners living for the flesh.

[Woody]

Quote:

"THE SINNER CAN NO MORE BE DAVED than Peter"

Peter was right. Dave was wrong.

[Robert]

These provisions won't amount to anything at all unless the sinner appropriates the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ NOW! sky

EGW says there will be folks who never heard the name of Christ who will be in heaven.....They'll ask what are those nail prints in your hand....

Also, babies who died before they could make a faith decision...many (if not all) will be in heaven. What saved them?

The "in Christ" truth....

[Gerr]

If sinners are not dead in their transgressions and children of wrath, then they wouldn't need grace or Christ as Savior, would they?

So then, when were they saved from this condition? Notice that Paul says "they used to live when [they] followed the ways of this world..." "All of us also lived This tells me that at one time they were living in transgression but at some point they left that lifestyle. At some point they were "dead" but then made alive. At some point they were aliens, strangers to the covenants, without hope, once afar off, but then brought near. When did come into possession of these blessings? According to Paul in Rom 3:24,25, this redemption is to be received by faith. And in Rom 10, he says that this faith comes by hearing the word of God.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

These provisions won't amount to anything at all unless the sinner appropriates the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ NOW! sky

EGW says there will be folks who never heard the name of Christ who will be in heaven.....They'll ask what are those nail prints in your hand....

Also, babies who died before they could make a faith decision...many (if not all) will be in heaven. What saved them?

The "in Christ" truth....

Excellent Examples Rob.

[skyblue888]

"Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor.6:2.

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners, not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." F.W.100,101.

This can only mean that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, until He comes. Thus the Holy Spirit is given to keep us from sinning.

Of course if we fall we have an Advocate before the Father who is faithful to fogive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But the goal is to ceaze to sin.

"As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law of God and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. Then we are drawing nigh to God. As soon as we have correct view of the love of God, we shall have no disposition to abuse it." 1 S.M.312. top of page.

sky

[Robert]

If sinners are not dead in their transgressions and ....

Gerry, why do you and others insist on changing Paul's words? Paul said "God...made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved."

When you were "dead in transgression" you were "made alive with Christ" - "it is by grace you have been saved"....

[pnattmbtc]

Robert's point is that Paul says, "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions". This says we were made alive "with Christ" even when were were dead in transgressions and sins. Gerry said

Quote:

If sinners are not dead in their transgressions and children of wrath, then they wouldn't need grace or Christ as Savior, would they?

which seems to be arguing that Paul meant that, at the time the believer accepted Christ they were dead in transgressions and sins, otherwise, they wouldn't need Christ, the point being that of course it says "dead in transgressions and sins" because at this point the believer (or "sinner" at this point) hadn't yet accepted Christ.

The problem with this explanation that I see is that the text says that we were made "alive with Christ." The "with Christ" part is the problem. We were made alive "with Christ". For this to happen, we had to have been alive at the same time Christ was. When was that? At Christ's resurrection. But we weren't even born then, so our being made alive "with Christ" could not have happened on the basis of our response to Christ.

[Robert]

2 Cor.6:2.,F.W.100,101.,1 S.M.312.

Not the context of Eph chapter 2

[Robert]

Paul states the same thing in Titus 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

Here Paul is writing to a believer named Titus

4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us [past tense] through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, [in the believer?] 6 whom he poured out on us [where?] generously in Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace [not faith], we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

This is not what I am doing Rob, I am comparing the two because Pnattmbtc is telling me the two pretty much teach the same thing, I don't agree, that's why I commented like that.

Norman

In many ways they do agree....But you must remember EGW stated that in her day she & the church had only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come....So EGW didn't have all truth....

Hi Rob, This may be the case, but there were pillars of truth that she knew very well. The Gospel is one of them. But, I will take your comment and run with it. Let's say she and others in her day did not understand the Gospel. There were two major events that took place in the history of man's salvation concerning the heavenly sanctuary.

1.It was opened for ministration when Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection. This was coupled with the preaching of the Gospel and now God's people would learn that the OT law was a guide to what was happening in heaven. Paul was commissioned to preach the Gospel and was given instruction by the Lord concerning the Gospel. He fought against the teaching that the OT law was needed in order to be saved. He knew this could never be, because the heavenly ministration had begun.

2.In 1844 a new phase of the ministration in the sanctuary in heaven began and the message was given to a group of believers who misinterpreted the prophecies they were studying. When they finally ate the sweet honey and realized it was bitter in their bellies and saw that they were mistaken they went back to the Word and saw that we are "now" living in the Day of Atonement, the judgment. However God was telling them they must prophecy again and this time they understood. Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,- They were to preach the Everlasting Gospel.

At both events God gave the Gospel to His people to preach. If this were not the case, then God would have called them to do something they could not do. All they could have done was preach what they knew before the great disappointment. They really would have nothing to preach but the law and some confused bits of the Gospel. No doubt, some did this, but that was not because the Gospel was not known or hid.

In a nutshell here's how that would look: God gives the Gospel to Paul when the ministration of the sanctuary services begin in heaven and he preaches it and sets it down for generations to come. Next, Jesus goes into the Most Holy place and a new phase begins. The Everlasting Gospel is commissioned to God's people to preach it. They don't know what it is, only a bit. Then at the end of time God reveals the true Gospel and the result is that those who were alive between these times really didn't have the Gospel God's commanded them to preach.

Sounds pretty irrational, if there was light that was not understood it would be found in the book of Revelation.

EGW and JS do not teach anywhere near the same thing. You have pointed this out many times in the past.

In Christ and His service,

Norman

[Robert]

EGW and JS do not teach anywhere near the same thing. You have pointed this out many times in the past.

Norman

Actually, they do, but you must look through her statements in the light of Scripture. That is the measuring stick.

As for Jack, he is a man used of God in a mighty way....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Hi pnattmbtc,

The danger in what he teaches is accepting it and then finding that there are some very real differences in what he teaches and what EGW teaches. In her writings she has said that the testimonies would be attacked and that Satan will try to make her writings of none effect. Once that goes then the rest generally follows.

I view this as another form of attacking her writings. Don't have time to finish this hopefully on the w/e. Then I need to get back to writing about the real "in Christ" that is taught in Scripture and SOP.

Norman [/quote']

1.As I pointed out, I'm not seeing what the differences are. Your simply claiming there are differences isn't helping me see them.

2.I think it's very, very wrong to view someone's having an opinion on a subject that's different than Ellen White's as a form of attacking her writings. I'm sure she never countenanced an idea like this.

I sure hope I'm misunderstanding you here.

Hi pnattmbtc,

I have pointed out differences and you don't see it. I can't help you with that. With respect I say, pray that God would open your eyes.

No, it is not wrong to say that her writings are being attacked by Satan through this teaching if it causes people to doubt the testimonies or part of them or to start judging them as not from God. If someone disagreed with the Bible and wrote contrary to it that would be considered an attack that would be dangerous. But here it is done in a subtle way by claiming to have the same message when they are very different and opposed.

As plainly as I can put it, this is what I see. JS teaches that the world is saved in Christ and he is not saying just given a chance to make a choice because we have physical life, he means eternal life is given to all. EGW on the other hand does not teach this and neither does the Bible. The reason this teaching is believed is because of a misunderstanding of which law is being spoken of in the NT, which has also led the 1st day keeper to disregard the Sabbath.

What happened at the cross was that every man was saved to have a probationary life to see whether or not they would accept Christ and receive the 2nd birth, (born again) since we had no choice in our first birth. We have been redeemed from Satan and provision has been made for us if we would accept Christ and His sacrifice, life, death and ministration. WE reveal this fact by our love for God and our love for people.

Love is the foundation of our life. Love and truth guides us as we commit ourselves every day to Him who loved us. We can do nothing but what He asks us to do as we love Him because He first loved us. How did He define that love? By a commitment, an oath, a proclamation, by principle, by keeping the commandments of God. When He is in us, we will do the same because we have the Spirit of His Son "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9b and if someone does not they reveal these things, they have not received Him and are still in need of accepting Him and the provision made for them. They are none of His means they have no part in Him at all and are without not just subjectively as they teach, but lost.

It's late, will continue some other time,

In Christ and His service,

Norman

[Robert]

JS teaches that the world is saved in Christ and he is not saying just given a chance to make a choice because we have physical life, he means eternal life is given to all.

Because God created man with a free will, Christ’s identity with us has to be reciprocal to make the legal justification He obtained for all men effective individually. This is what justification by faith is all about. Faith is the channel or instrument by which the believer accepts his or her united with Christ and Him crucified (Galatians 2:19, 20). This two-sided union — You in Christ and Christ in you — is what constitutes true Christianity and man’s only hope of salvation: standing legally just before God’s holy law [Romans 10:4]. [Jack Sequeira]

[Guest]

Hi pnattmbtc,

I have pointed out differences and you don't see it. I can't help you with that. With respect I say, pray that God would open your eyes.

No, it is not wrong to say that her writings are being attacked by Satan through this teaching if it causes people to doubt the testimonies or part of them or to start judging them as not from God. If someone disagreed with the Bible and wrote contrary to it that would be considered an attack that would be dangerous. But here it is done in a subtle way by claiming to have the same message when they are very different and opposed.

As plainly as I can put it, this is what I see. JS teaches that the world is saved in Christ and he is not saying just given a chance to make a choice because we have physical life, he means eternal life is given to all. EGW on the other hand does not teach this and neither does the Bible. The reason this teaching is believed is because of a misunderstanding of which law is being spoken of in the NT, which has also led the 1st day keeper to disregard the Sabbath.

What happened at the cross was that every man was saved to have a probationary life to see whether or not they would accept Christ and receive the 2nd birth, (born again) since we had no choice in our first birth. We have been redeemed from Satan and provision has been made for us if we would accept Christ and His sacrifice, life, death and ministration. WE reveal this fact by our love for God and our love for people.

Love is the foundation of our life. Love and truth guides us as we commit ourselves every day to Him who loved us. We can do nothing but what He asks us to do as we love Him because He first loved us. How did He define that love? By a commitment, an oath, a proclamation, by principle, by keeping the commandments of God. When He is in us, we will do the same because we have the Spirit of His Son "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9b and if someone does not they reveal these things, they have not received Him and are still in need of accepting Him and the provision made for them. They are none of His means they have no part in Him at all and are without not just subjectively as they teach, but lost.

It's late, will continue some other time,

In Christ and His service,

Norman

Amen!!

[Robert]

Amen!!

You are confused....I just quoted Jack....Go read him and then repent for your bias against him....You and others have accused him of something he does not say....

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Hi pnattmbtc,

I have pointed out differences and you don't see it. I can't help you with that. With respect I say, pray that God would open your eyes.

No, it is not wrong to say that her writings are being attacked by Satan through this teaching if it causes people to doubt the testimonies or part of them or to start judging them as not from God. If someone disagreed with the Bible and wrote contrary to it that would be considered an attack that would be dangerous. But here it is done in a subtle way by claiming to have the same message when they are very different and opposed.

As plainly as I can put it, this is what I see. JS teaches that the world is saved in Christ and he is not saying just given a chance to make a choice because we have physical life, he means eternal life is given to all. EGW on the other hand does not teach this and neither does the Bible. The reason this teaching is believed is because of a misunderstanding of which law is being spoken of in the NT, which has also led the 1st day keeper to disregard the Sabbath.

What happened at the cross was that every man was saved to have a probationary life to see whether or not they would accept Christ and receive the 2nd birth, (born again) since we had no choice in our first birth. We have been redeemed from Satan and provision has been made for us if we would accept Christ and His sacrifice, life, death and ministration. WE reveal this fact by our love for God and our love for people.

Love is the foundation of our life. Love and truth guides us as we commit ourselves every day to Him who loved us. We can do nothing but what He asks us to do as we love Him because He first loved us. How did He define that love? By a commitment, an oath, a proclamation, by principle, by keeping the commandments of God. When He is in us, we will do the same because we have the Spirit of His Son "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9b and if someone does not they reveal these things, they have not received Him and are still in need of accepting Him and the provision made for them. They are none of His means they have no part in Him at all and are without not just subjectively as they teach, but lost.

It's late, will continue some other time,

In Christ and His service,

Norman

Amen!!

I triple that AMEN!

Jack S. does not know what the real gospel is, but he knows how to slaughter it.

His Universal Justification error, as serious as it is, is only the tip of the iceberg. he makes Desmond Ford look like a Boy Scout!

[Robert]

Jack S. does not know what the real gospel is, but he knows how to slaughter it.

His Universal Justification error, as serious as it is, is only the tip of the iceberg. he makes Desmond Ford look like a Boy Scout!

It is you who are in error when it comes to the gospel.

When did God save you, Steve?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Amen!!

You are confused....I just quoted Jack....Go read him and then repent for your bias against him....You and others have accused him of something he does not say....

I don't know what exactly you speak of here, but I have several docx in my files with errors from Beyond Belief. JS is a disgrace to the gospel and the Adventist church!

[Steve Billiter]

I accepted Christ 40 years ago.

No one is saved yet, we can lose our salvation, which is something else Sequeria is loose on.

4. Meritorious/Demonstrative. Righteousness “in Christ” is the only means of our salvation and, unless we resist and reject it, it fully qualifies us for heaven both now and in the judgement. (Jack Sequeria, beyond Belief)

This is unbiblical and disagrees with EGW.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Is it the end yet? No.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Sequeria teaches we have to reject salvation that has already been given to the whole world.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It does not get any more clear than this, we can lose our salvation.

2. Universal/Particular. “In Christ,” all humanity was redeemed — legally justified and reconciled to God [see Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 Timothy 4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2].(Jack Sequeria, Beyond Belief)

Here he says all humanity was redeemed and justified. NO. Reconciled to God? So Hitler was redeemed and reconciled?

He forgets one thing here. The conditions for salvation must be met

No one is justified without faith in Christ, nor are they redeemed or reconciled.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Since when is the whole world justified by faith? Not even close. The only ones being deceived by Jack Sequeria are the ones who have rejected truth, or do not study the Bible.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

These provisions won't amount to anything at all unless the sinner appropriates the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ NOW! sky

Again, you are in opposition to Paul who said Christ saved us by grace when we were sinners living for the flesh.

And WHEN were they saved? Paul says: "For by grace you have been saved (provided at the Cross, yea, even in eternity past) THROUGH FAITH."

WHEN did the faith come in? When they heard the word and believed! Paul says the same thing in Rom 3:24,25, that the justification by grace and the propitiation by his blood which were provided at the Cross or even earlier in eternity past) are to be "received by faith."

The provision was there but not possessed UNTIL the sinner accepts the gift. If you are saying that sinners were justified/forgiven regardless of whether they accept the gift or not, then nobody is lost. Revelation 20 clearly refutes that.

[Robert]

I accepted Christ 40 years ago.