"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. We have to accept Him.

Quote:

1.The death of Christ is effective for every human being, in terms of having physical life, and the opportunity to respond to Christ.

2.Only those who accept Christ (or, conversely, do not reject Him) are those who will be individually saved.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

The danger in what he teaches is accepting it and then finding that there are some very real differences in what he teaches and what EGW teaches.

You are making EGW the standard for truth...the measuring stick of truth. She would have called you out on this one if she were still alive....

This is not what I am doing Rob, I am comparing the two because Pnattmbtc is telling me the two pretty much teach the same thing, I don't agree, that's why I commented like that.

Norman

[Robert]

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. We have to accept Him.

1.The death of Christ is effective for every human being, in terms of having physical life, and the opportunity to respond to Christ.

[Robert]

This is not what I am doing Rob, I am comparing the two because Pnattmbtc is telling me the two pretty much teach the same thing, I don't agree, that's why I commented like that.

Norman

In many ways they do agree....But you must remember EGW stated that in her day she & the church had only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come....So EGW didn't have all truth....

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Norman, regarding #309157, does JS reject the sanctuary doctrine? What's the connections between his teachings and rejecting the sanctuary doctrine?

I'm not saying I see things the same way he does. This isn't saying much, since we are all individuals, but I try to understand what others are saying, and be fair to what they are intending to communicate. It seems to me that JS is wishing to communicate the two things I've been mentioning:

1.The death of Christ is effective for every human being, in terms of having physical life, and the opportunity to respond to Christ.

2.Only those who accept Christ (or, conversely, do not reject Him) are those who will be individually saved.

So Christ corporately saved the human race (because the human race would have been corporately lost, had Christ not agreed to be the Savior of the race) but individually any person (who reaches the age of accountability and has the ability to do so) can choose to be lost.

Here's an analogy I use. Imagine a bus heading off a cliff. Somehow a person is able to prevent the bus from going over, at the cost of his own life. Everyone on the bus would owe a debt to that person who gave his life that he might be saved. The person can still use that gift of life to choose to jump off the cliff, but his life was saved. Christ corporately saved the bus, but the individuals within the bus can still choose to be lost.

At any rate, Norman, I appreciate the concern you have. You appear to be very sincere, and appreciate your attempts to discuss things in a reasonable tone. I especially appreciate your stopping to use pejorative terms, as I requested. I understand completely the temptation to do so when communicating about things regarding which one feels passionately.

However, I'm not seeing the connection to danger that you are seeing. Perhaps you could flesh things out a bit, as well as respond to my analogy, if that makes sense to you, and if it seems similar to what JS is trying to say.

Hi pnattmbtc,

The danger in what he teaches is accepting it and then finding that there are some very real differences in what he teaches and what EGW teaches. In her writings she has said that the testimonies would be attacked and that Satan will try to make her writings of none effect. Once that goes then the rest generally follows.

I view this as another form of attacking her writings. Don't have time to finish this hopefully on the w/e. Then I need to get back to writing about the real "in Christ" that is taught in Scripture and SOP.

Norman

1.As I pointed out, I'm not seeing what the differences are. Your simply claiming there are differences isn't helping me see them.

2.I think it's very, very wrong to view someone's having an opinion on a subject that's different than Ellen White's as a form of attacking her writings. I'm sure she never countenanced an idea like this.

I sure hope I'm misunderstanding you here.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

I'm not understanding you at all. You'll have to explain. [/quote']

This discussion between you and me started when you said I had too much "I" in the salvation formula.

Your turn.

You get rid of it.

We're not the first people in Christianity to wrestle with the conundrum of "I can't , but I must."

Basically, we've got three choices.

1. I can't, so give up on it. This is the choice Satan is advocating.

2. I can't, but God can, so leave it up to Him. This is the Calvinist or Universalist stance.

3. I am incapable of doing what I must, but God promises to do it with me, and in His strength we'll prevail. This is the historic Adventist teaching.

The anti-legalist movement in Adventism has produced a certain degree of Calvinism, because the human mind is not well suited to problems of infinite regression, and they keep going to smaller quantities of "I" until they throw the baby out with the bath water.

Sometimes I liken the conundrum to quantum mechanics, in which the stuff that God dwelleth in (light) simultaneously behaves like particles and waves.

We are the particles. God is the WAVE.

Or....?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Paul maintains that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek through his ancestor Abraham because Levi was already "in the loins of Abraham."

So Levi was "in Abraham"? Levi's life...his life substance...was in his Father. So when Abraham paid tithe, Levi did also because he was part of Abraham's humanity.

Quote:

By the same token, Christ died corporately for everyone

No, the Bible doesn't say this....It says "One died for all, therefore all died" We died corporately "in Christ"....How?

As I see it, the question boils down to: When is a sinner saved? Isn't that the bottomline of what we are discussing?

1. If you are saying that it took place at the Cross because "all died" when Christ died, we could actually push that back in eternity past - since the "Lamb was slain from foundation of the world"! Corporate atonement was provided in eternity past when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Corporate atonement was provided for the whole nation of Israel in the regular a.m. & p.m. sacrifices. But atonement in the personal level did not take place until the individual sinner came with his own sacrificial lamb to the altar. In the same manner, corporate atonement was provided at the Cross but we do not receive our own individual atonement until we present Christ as our OWN individual sacrifical Lamb.

2. When was Abraham counted righteous? Corporately in eternity past? Corporately at the Cross (future in his time)? I would say "yes" to both. But this was never his until "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness," Gal 3:6.

3. The Abrahamic Covenant was: "I will bless you & multiply you. And in you will ALL the nations be blessed." So corporately ALL the nations were/are blessed through Abraham even though they were only in his "loins", both physically & in the spiritual sense. But are all saved because all were corporately blessed in/through Abraham? Absolutely not! "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved," Rom 9:27 ESV. Paul in Gal 3:7 emphatically says, "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." And when does this faith come? "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ," Rom 10:17 ESV. It didn't take place 2000 yrs ago.

4. So who is/are the "us" who is/are seated corporately with Christ in the "heavenly places?" Consider, who was Paul writing to? The Ephesian believers. And to whom was Paul referring to "who once were alienated and hostile in mind doing evil deeds" whom Christ "has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death?" Paul was writing to the Colossian believers. And if this was an accomplished fact in which nothing could be added to or subtracted from, why would he add a caveat: "IF you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, NOT shifting from the hope of the gospel...." Col 1:21-23 ESV.

5. It is obvious from all the testimony that NOT all will be saved. If all died and lived in the person of Christ at the Cross 2000 yrs ago, WHY ARE SOME SAVED AND WHY ARE SOME LOST?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. We have to accept Him.

1.The death of Christ is effective for every human being, in terms of having physical life, and the opportunity to respond to Christ.

Christ took men's 2nd death, not his first death....He took the curse of the law death. This Christ has already accomplished for all men.

But his death is not yours nor mine until we are crucified with Him! We "... are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith, Rom 3:24-25 ESV. The provision for a general amnesty was declared at the Cross. The reception is NOW. The day of salvation for me is TODAY. "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Again, if reconciliation was an accomplished fact for each one individually, WHY WOULD PAUL SAY, "BE RECONCILED TO GOD?"

Quote:

Quote:

Only those who accept Christ....

Yes, but accepting doesn't make it so....It is already a historical fact!!! It merely makes it effective in the life of the believer.....He/she is accepting something that is complete....You can't add to it not even by works.

Truly the gift is complete. We cannot add to it or subtract from it. This provision was made at the Cross or actually even in eternity past. Peace, forgiveness, a general amnesty was declared at the Cross. But that gift does not do you or me any good salvation-wise until we receive it and appropriate it in our lives. God supplies the food but man has to eat it. He supplies the air but we have to breathe it. He supplies the drink but we have to imbibe it. God parts the Red Sea and the Jordan but we have to cross them. My eating and breathing and drinking and crossing are not legalistic acts! "The righteous shall live by faith." So the believer eats, drinks, breathes, and crosses what God has provided all by and through faith.

[John317]

In many ways they do agree....But you must remember EGW stated that in her day she & the church had only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come....So EGW didn't have all truth....

Of course Ellen White didn't have all the truth. But the point is that God showed her over 2000 visions. I'd say that's an awful lot of light, and none of us have yet come close to knowing the light God showed her. How can we think anyone have more light than she did if they're rejecting her writings and her ministry?

Another very important point here is that the truth will never contradict what has been established as truth by the testimony of Holy Spirit. For instance, there will be people who will try to shake our confidence and belief in the Investigative Judgment and they will claim that they have greater light. This very thing is happening today.

Ellen White said we shouldn't be afraid of examining and accepting new truth but we do need to be careful and study and pray over it, and discuss it with fellow-adventists. It should also be submitted to a representative group of trusted leaders in the church for their counsel.

Personally I am skeptical of some of the things that Jack Sequeira teaches because he says that the SDA church is not the remnant church yet, and he also says the Sabbath doesn't become the seal until some far-off future time. He seems to give some people the impression, too, that the Sabbath-Sunday issue is not important at this time. I would like to spend time with him personally so I could ask him questions and find out exactly where he stands on some doctrines, such as the relationship between law and gospel. For instance, can people who have the Holy Spirit in their lives keep God's commandments? And is the Sabbath a memorial of creation? Et Cetera.

[pnattmbtc]

This discussion between you and me started when you said I had too much "I" in the salvation formula.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: mark

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

We have to recognise our total abject spiritual poverty, until that happens, we will keep:

"Proclaiming and Failing"...

So... where do people get off proclaiming they're being credited with all kinds of merits and proclaiming that people are saved when they are actually wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked?

When you figure out how to totally absolve mankind of any participation in salvation without producing universalism or calvinism in the process, please post it here.

I am not quite sure why this post was directed at me Karl?

[Twilight]

I've already posted on this. Several times I've quoted the following:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176)

This seems very clear to me. The love of God is revealed from the cross, and if the sinner does not resist the drawing of this love, he will repent, the Spirit through faith produces a new life in the soul, the law is written in the heart, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Christ. The above explains how one is saved.

I agree with this.

I would also add, that this being drawn is the acceptance of the promises of God as they are revealed to us.

When we accept what God had promised us, we will be saved.

So our part is to recieve the precious gifts God has laid out.

Not to "earn" them in any sense of the word at all.

But to "receive" them.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I came to see that the pen of inspiration couldn't have stated it more clearly, what is our part:

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Faith and Works, 106.

As we do this, urged on by the Holy Spirit, we have every right to claim all of God's promises and we have every assurance that the Holy Spirit is given to us and the Holy Spirit is the gift that brings all the other blessings in its train.

So we must present our helpless case before God every single day pleading the merits of the blood of Christ that the soul-cleansing blood may be applied.

How's that?

sky

Pretty clear...

But I would just say that we have to recognise the leading of the Holy Spirit, which points out our spiritual poverty, before we can appropriate the merits of Christ.

Why?

Because until Laodicea accept Gods verdict of their spiritual poverty, they will not be able to "buy" anything at all from God.

The "buy" of course representing the appropriating of the blood/merits of Christ...

[Twilight]

Just tagging on.

How is one to be delivered from the law? In Gal 2:19, Paul says one must die to the law. In 2:20 he shows how it is done - by being crucified with Christ. Obviously this is not a literal one. He was crucified 2K yrs ago and we're living in 2009. But we identify ourselves with that death when we accept Christ as Lord and are buried in baptism symbolizing the death of the old self. If the "old self" is dead, the law no longer has jurisdiction over him. Paul amplifies this thought in Rom 7:1-6 when he uses the law of marriage as an example. A woman is bound/tied to her husband as long as he is alive. But when the husband dies, she is freed from the law of marriage and is free to marry another. If the person that comes out of the watery grave continues to live like the "old man", then the "old self" did not in fact die. Therefore the law is still has a claim on him. The law of marriage is not dissolved when in fact none of the partners died, so that marrying another while the spouse is still alive would be illegal. Obviously the law cannot die; it is eternal. For the law to lose its claim, the sinner has to die and remain dead. That is why the person who comes out of the watery grave has to "walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4.

How does that happen? Paul makes it clear how that can happen. If the conversion is genuine, a new person quickened/created by the Holy Spirit comes out of the watery grave. More than that, this new person is indwelt by the Spirit. A person indwelt by the Spirit will "walk by the Spirit and ...will not gratify the desires of the flesh," Gal 5:16. Such a person who is "led by the Spirit" is "not under law," Gal 5:18, because "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law Gal 5:22-23 ESV.

Amen Brother!

The other thing we do need to guard against though, is that "sin still works in our members".

The part of us that responds to sin is dead.

Not the sin in our members.

When we understand that, we will understand how we can be dead and still be under temptation.

The temptation is to stop believing God has placed us in the position of "death", and to step out of that and act out of "self".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

If I may interject a thoguht here?

We have an "old I" and a "new I".

Which "I" we have defines the validity of our position.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

This discussion between you and me started when you said I had too much "I" in the salvation formula.

Either you have me confused with someone else, or you misunderstood my question. You made some comments which looked to me like straw men, so I asked, "No one's suggesting this, are they?"

You had agreed with what I had written earlier on this subject. I thought we were on the same page. I certainly wasn't thinking you had to much "I" in your formula. I just thought you were throwing out some straw men.

Quote:

Your turn.

You get rid of it.

I think it's your turn! You'll have to quote something I said, because I don't think I've done what you're suggesting.

(I'll respond to the rest of your post later; gotta run now).

You might be quoting what I have said Karl (and possibly on another thread). :-)

Mark

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

This discussion between you and me started when you said I had too much "I" in the salvation formula.

Either you have me confused with someone else, or you misunderstood my question.

Quote:

Your turn.

You get rid of it.

I think it's your turn! You'll have to quote something I said, because I don't think I've done what you're suggesting.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Christ took men's 2nd death, not his first death....He took the curse of the law death. This Christ has already accomplished for all men.

But his death is not yours nor mine until we are crucified with Him! We "... are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith, Rom 3:24-25 ESV. The provision for a general amnesty was declared at the Cross. The reception is NOW. The day of salvation for me is TODAY. "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." Again, if reconciliation was an accomplished fact for each one individually, WHY WOULD PAUL SAY, "BE RECONCILED TO GOD?"

Quote:

Quote:

Only those who accept Christ....

Yes, but accepting doesn't make it so....It is already a historical fact!!! It merely makes it effective in the life of the believer.....He/she is accepting something that is complete....You can't add to it not even by works.

[/quote']

Truly the gift is complete. We cannot add to it or subtract from it. This provision was made at the Cross or actually even in eternity past. Peace, forgiveness, a general amnesty was declared at the Cross. But that gift does not do you or me any good salvation-wise until we receive it and appropriate it in our lives. God supplies the food but man has to eat it. He supplies the air but we have to breathe it. He supplies the drink but we have to imbibe it. God parts the Red Sea and the Jordan but we have to cross them. My eating and breathing and drinking and crossing are not legalistic acts! "The righteous shall live by faith." So the believer eats, drinks, breathes, and crosses what God has provided all by and through faith.

I agree with what you have written, especially this phrase:

"But that gift does not do you or me any good salvation-wise until we receive it and appropriate it in our lives"

What is that gift which is to be appropriated by faith?

"All His merits and holiness were open to fallen men, presented as a gift." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.357.

Therefore, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

By appropriating His merits to ourselves, we become one with Him and thus we are clothed with the robe of His righteousness which is made manfest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

sky

"If we are conscious of the weakness of self, we shall not be self-confident and reckless of danger, but we shall feel the necessity of seeking the source of our strength, Jesus our righteousness. We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.86.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with this. (responding to DA 175-176 quote)

I would also add, that this being drawn is the acceptance of the promises of God as they are revealed to us.

When we accept what God had promised us, we will be saved.

So our part is to receive the precious gifts God has laid out.

Not to "earn" them in any sense of the word at all. But to "receive" them.

I think this is the right way of looking at it. God gives us things, and we receive them (or not, if that's our decision).

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Because of Christ's work, the entire human race has been restored to favor with God.

EGW QUOTE

"He(Christ) took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God." (1SM 343)

Me:In the light of this, it's difficult to see how the default status could be "lost."

karl:The default status is most definitely "lost." You need to read on. Read some more and you will get the full picture, like this quote which is also from SM:

"He would become one with the race, and by a spotless life from the manger to the cross He would show that man, by a life of repentance and faith in Him, might be restored to the favor of God. He would bring to man redeeming grace, forgiveness of sins. If men would return to their loyalty, and no longer transgress, they would receive pardon."

[Robert]

So who is/are the "us" who is/are seated corporately with Christ in the "heavenly places?" Consider, who was Paul writing to? The Ephesian believers.

True, Paul is writing to the Ephesians, however a closer look will reveal who Paul is speaking to:

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Yes, Paul is talking to believers here....But note the term "dead in your transgressions and sins". We will see this later....

3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

Note, we were "by nature" (not performance alone) under the curse.

4 But because of his great love [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus....

Note, Paul says that when you were a sinner, living for the flesh, God saved YOU by grace. Deal with this....

[skyblue888]

Of course God saves us by grace, that is, by sending His Holy Spirit to keep us from sinning. "You send Your Spirit and they are created." Psalm 104:30. This is the new creation in Christ Jesus. "By grace you are saved." Eph.2:8. This is the grace of the Holy Spirit, the power by which we are to be kept and which is ready to be revealed in the last time. See 1 Peter 1:5.

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

It is through the merits of Christ which we must appropriate by faith that we receive the grace of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit accomplishes everything, working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure and His good pleasure is expressed in the precepts of His holy law.

sky

[Robert]

Of course God saves us by grace...

Paul didn't say "saves"...he said, "it is by grace you have been saved"

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Of course God saves us by grace...

Paul didn't say "saves"...he said, "it is by grace you have been saved"

AMEN. If you can't say you're saved ... something is:

WRONG.

[skyblue888]

We are saved, kept by the power of God through faith, that is, by daily appropriating the merits of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. We are not saved in the past though Jesus died for all.

"Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor.4:2.

We are always living in the "now" not in the past. Tomorrow will be in the "now" and for those who lived before us, they were living in the "now".

"Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.." 2 Cor.6:2.

sky