"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What a bunch of baloney you believe Robert.

What a bunch of BS you believe, Richard.

[Robert]

Just tagging on.[color:blue]

How is one to be delivered from the law? In Gal 2:19, Paul says one must die to the law. In 2:20 he shows how it is done - by being crucified with Christ. Obviously this is not a literal one. He was crucified 2K yrs ago and we're living in 2009.

And that's where your theology goes into legalistic over gear because you do not understand what the "in Christ" motif actually means....Would you like help?

[Guest]

What a bunch of BS you believe, Richard.

Now is that any way for a Christian to talk?

[Gerr]

Just show where I have said is in error. Sola Scriptura.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What a bunch of BS you believe, Richard.

Now is that any way for a Christian to talk?

Look in the mirror....

[Guest]

I didn't use that kind of language.

[Robert]

Just show where I have said is in error. Sola Scriptura.

"When One died, all died"

Who does "all" refer to?

"You died to the law in the body of Christ"

Who does "you" refer to?

"He [God] has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son"

"and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Who does "us" refer to?

[Robert]

I didn't use that kind of language.

That's nice, but neither do you love your neighbor as yourself. You love yourself and this is proven by your continual smart butt comments....Might as well use bad language because sin is sin....

[Guest]

I do love my neighbor as myself, even you. It's just hard to watch my neighbor espouse baloney that's all.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Just show where I have said is in error. Sola Scriptura.

"When One died, all died"

Who does "all" refer to?

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

1. We died in Christ 2000 yrs ago in the same sense that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham many centuries before, Heb 7.

2. If every sinner was justified and reconciled at the Cross and nothing more to be added, why then was Paul entrusted with a message: "BE RECONCILED TO GOD" if all this was accomplished at the Cross?

3. Paul clearly states: "are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,[that took place 2K yrs ago] to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." Rom 3:24-25 ESV

When is the justification/reconciliation mine? WHEN I RECEIVE IT BY FAITH! And when is that? NOT 2000 yrs ago. It is when I accept Christ as my LORD and Savior. To accept Christ as Lord while still serving the devil is spiritual adultery per Paul's Rom 7:1-6 metaphor.

4. Why would Paul say, "I am crucified with Christ [present tense]" rather than, "I was crucified with Christ," or "I had been crucified with Christ?" Furthermore, why would he say, "I die daily" if that was an accomplished fact many years before? The "old man" or "old self" has to be crucified in reality TODAY. That is why the message is:"TODAY, if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts." If it all happened 2k yrs ago without anything more to be done, then this message would have no meaning.

[Robert]

I do love my neighbor as myself, even you.

Then why are you not living for me? Words are empty!

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"When One died' date=' all died"

Who does "all" refer to?[/quote'] 1. We died in Christ 2000 yrs ago in the same sense that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham many centuries before, Heb 7.

Explain further...

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi John, that's the quote (from F&W) I was looking for, thanks for posting it.

Originally Posted By: Norman

What Prescott wrote and all of the writings of EGW are based on condition. I have been looking for a comment she made in a letter to A T Jones, you may know about it, what she tells him that "there is something we must do for our salvation". Obviously she was not saying we add to Christ's complete work but something else and that was a response to the provision that God made available in Christ.

Is this it?

Faith and Works, pages 111-113.

"... You [A.T. Jones] repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions.... You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ.... It is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works..."

Elsewhere she writes that while we are not saved by good works, no one will be saved without good works.

That is similar to saying that while faith is not what saves us-- God's grace does-- no one will be saved without it.

Some people have a difficult time understanding and accepting this, so they reject it and call it heresy, but it is the true gospel.

By the way, Norman, it's great to see you posting again! Thanks for the PM and the address. I plan to get back to Chatta next year, and would love to buy you and your wife dinner, a return of the favor. :-)

[Gerr]

Robert:

Quote:

"You died to the law in the body of Christ"

Who does "you" refer to?

WHEN does the reality of his death become mine? When do I die to the law?

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6:3-4 ESV.

What's the point of baptism if in fact I already died with Christ 2k yrs ago?

Furthermore, a person can't be dead and be free from the law if that person is still living like the "old man." One can't be married to Christ while still married to the devil!

Quote:

"He [God] has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son"

"and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Who does "us" refer to?

If "us" refers to EVERYONE as you seem to imply, why was he given the message: "BE RECONCILED TO GOD?" Why is there a message: "TODAY, IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS," if it was already an accomplished fact? The "us" can only refer to those who have already accepted Christ as their LORD and Savior!

[Guest]

That's right Gerry.

[pnattmbtc]

This is from Waggoner:

Quote:

But that is not to say that works have

nothing to do with faith. Justification means making just,

or making righteous. Righteousness is right doing. Faith

which justifies, therefore, is faith which makes a man a

doer of the law, or, rather, which puts the doing of the

law into him. "For we are his workmanship, created in

Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before

ordained that we should walk in them." Eph.. 2:10. "It is

God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good

pleasure." Phil. 2:13. "This is a faithful saying, and

these things I will that thou affirm constantly. that they

which have believed in God might be careful to maintain

good works." Titus 3:8. A man is not justified by faith and

works, but by faith alone, which works.(Waggoner on Romans)

[pnattmbtc]

I posted this a bit earlier in this thread, which I think fits in well here:

Quote:

Another example that might be helpful would be the emancipation proclamation. The slaves were freed by a proclamation of the president, but before the could personally experience freedom, they needed to be made aware of the situation. So the government sent agents to tell the slaves the good news. What was the good news? Was it, "If you believe, the government will free you?" No, the good news was, "You have been freed by a proclamation of the president."

So it is true that unless they believed the good news, they couldn't personally benefit from the proclamation, but the proclamation was true whether they believed it or not. And the good news was not dependent upon their belief, or anything they did, to be true.

This is definitely this aspect to the Gospel. The trick is to communicate it in a way that people don't mishear it as saying something else, like "you don't have to do anything to be saved."

[pnattmbtc]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Explain further...

"One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him." Heb 7:9-10 ESV.

Levi never paid tithe to Melchizedek, but corporately speaking, Paul maintains that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek through his ancestor Abraham because Levi was already "in the loins [generative powers, seed] of Abraham." By the same token, Christ died corporately for everyone, and as the second Adam, all who will believe in Him were already "in His loins" as it were.

[Robert]

When do I die to the law?

Rom 6:3-4 ESV.

[Robert]

That's right Gerry.

No, that's wrong Gerry....

[Robert]

Paul maintains that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek through his ancestor Abraham because Levi was already "in the loins of Abraham."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I do love my neighbor as myself, even you.

Then why are you not living for me? Words are empty!

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

After all, Christ didn't live for himself: "44 and whoever wishes to be first [the greatest] among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

"Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."

Why? He lived for others.... "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich [in heaven], yet for your sakes he became poor [here], so that you through his poverty might become rich [in heaven].

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Norman, regarding #309157, does JS reject the sanctuary doctrine? What's the connections between his teachings and rejecting the sanctuary doctrine?

I'm not saying I see things the same way he does. This isn't saying much, since we are all individuals, but I try to understand what others are saying, and be fair to what they are intending to communicate. It seems to me that JS is wishing to communicate the two things I've been mentioning:

1.The death of Christ is effective for every human being, in terms of having physical life, and the opportunity to respond to Christ.

2.Only those who accept Christ (or, conversely, do not reject Him) are those who will be individually saved.

So Christ corporately saved the human race (because the human race would have been corporately lost, had Christ not agreed to be the Savior of the race) but individually any person (who reaches the age of accountability and has the ability to do so) can choose to be lost.

Here's an analogy I use. Imagine a bus heading off a cliff. Somehow a person is able to prevent the bus from going over, at the cost of his own life. Everyone on the bus would owe a debt to that person who gave his life that he might be saved. The person can still use that gift of life to choose to jump off the cliff, but his life was saved. Christ corporately saved the bus, but the individuals within the bus can still choose to be lost.

At any rate, Norman, I appreciate the concern you have. You appear to be very sincere, and appreciate your attempts to discuss things in a reasonable tone. I especially appreciate your stopping to use pejorative terms, as I requested. I understand completely the temptation to do so when communicating about things regarding which one feels passionately.

However, I'm not seeing the connection to danger that you are seeing. Perhaps you could flesh things out a bit, as well as respond to my analogy, if that makes sense to you, and if it seems similar to what JS is trying to say.

Hi pnattmbtc,

The danger in what he teaches is accepting it and then finding that there are some very real differences in what he teaches and what EGW teaches. In her writings she has said that the testimonies would be attacked and that Satan will try to make her writings of none effect. Once that goes then the rest generally follows.

I view this as another form of attacking her writings. Don't have time to finish this hopefully on the w/e. Then I need to get back to writing about the real "in Christ" that is taught in Scripture and SOP.

Norman

[Robert]

The danger in what he teaches is accepting it and then finding that there are some very real differences in what he teaches and what EGW teaches.

You are making EGW the standard for truth...the measuring stick of truth. She would have called you out on this one if she were still alive....