"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Woody]

[pnattmbtc]

"Work out" in the phrase "work out your salvation" does not mean "work for." "Work out" isn't a very common expression in English. I was looking at some other languages to get an idea of the meaning here. Spanish has "occupy yourself". I've heard the Greek word used means "work out" in the sense of "demonstrate."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Have you considered this Norman:

Blood = Merits of Christ.

Bread = Word of God.

Circumcision = Cutting away of the flesh in the individuals experience from the heart and spirit.

God bless,

Mark :-)

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

So where is there any difference between what Wieland wrote and what Ellen White wrote? It seems to me to be the same concept being discussed (especially in FW 21, she says something very similar to what Wieland wrote, in terms of everything we have being the purchase of Christ's blood).

Hi pnattmbtc, (I've deleted some of this to keep it short - I just kept your last paragraph so people will know what I am replying to)

My contention is with what is being taught by those who believe the false "in Christ" interpretation. You have me taking sides against Weiland, Wagoner and Jones and EGW. Let's just stay with what I am talking about, please.

What I am saying is that the "in Christ" theory promoted by those who misunderstand the scriptures is false and damaging; and I am using certain verses to prove what I am saying.

Now here's the proof you were asking for; this is from Jack Sequeira - Chapter: "Out of This World" from "The Gospel in a Nutshell"

"After Christ redeemed us by his life and death, Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:6: ''God raised us up with Christ....'' We were with him in the incarnation; we were with him in his perfect life; we were with him on the cross; and now we are with him in the resurrection. He went to heaven and sat on the right hand of God, and we were there with him. Paul says in Ephesians 2:6: ''God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.''

What God did for us in Christ is God's gift to mankind, but because God created us with a free will, there has to be a human response. That response is faith. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9: ''By grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.'' Salvation is entirely, one hundred percent, a free gift to us, given at infinite cost to God."

Here is what Ellen G White says about this.

Ellen G. White Estate

In Heavenly Places (1967), page 7, paragraph 1-3

Chapter Title: "In Heavenly Places"

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-6.

As God raised Christ from the dead, that He might bring life and immortality to light through the gospel, and thus save His people from their sins, so Christ has raised fallen human beings to spiritual life, quickening them with His life, filling their hearts with hope and joy.

Christ gave Himself for the redemption of the race, that all who believe in Him may have everlasting life. Those who appreciate this great sacrifice receive from the Saviour that most precious of all gifts --a clean heart. They gain an experience that is more valuable than gold or silver or precious stones. They sit together in heavenly places in Christ, enjoying in communion with Him the joy and peace that He alone can give. They love Him with heart and mind and soul and strength, realizing that they are His blood-bought heritage. Their spiritual eyesight is not dimmed by worldly policy or worldly aims. They are one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

There is a difference in what JS is saying and what EGW is saying. He is applying it to the world and she is saying that it is for those who are one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

She is not making any reference to the "Objective Gospel" and never does. These verses are only referring to God's people. The 2nd paragraph is referring to those who have accepted Christ and are living by the Holy Spirit.

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[Twilight]

What gospel are you speaking of that says confession of sin and repentance is legalism? Jack Sequeria's gospel? Rick Warren's gospel? Robert Wieland's gospel?

Without meeting the conditions of the gospel, no one will see the Lord.

What is the first thing Jesus preached?

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What did Peter say?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must deal with our sin as God says to do:

Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Please do not be deceived, the Bible is true.

I have since looked at this from our previous discussion and agree Steve, that repentance is the first work the Holy Spirit performs on a man.

The Laodiceans first have to admit their spiritual poverty.

Then they can point to the merits of Jesus' shed blood.

Then they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But the repentance is a gift from God and is something we respond to, rather than do. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Accepting Christ is repentance. To believe in Him you have to see yourself as a sinner.....

Quote:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is speaking of the new birth....

Quote:

Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

This is old covenant....

If what you say is true, then why did Jesus place Mary Magdelane under the old covenant?

"Go and sin no more..."

[Twilight]

"The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ"

ELLEN WHITE in STC 26

But it does teach that when the invitation comes, repentance is the decision to accept that invitation and the fruit of the acceptance of that invitation...

And context is always important.

There is a repentance that is needed, but it is not of mans doing, it is accepted as the gift it is from God:

The prayer of David after his fall, illustrates the nature of true sorrow for sin. His repentance was sincere and deep. There was no effort to palliate

25

his guilt; no desire to escape the judgment threatened, inspired his prayer. David saw the enormity of his transgression; he saw the defilement of his soul; he loathed his sin. It was not for pardon only that he prayed, but for purity of heart. He longed for the joy of holiness--to be restored to harmony and communion with God. This was the language of his soul:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,

whose sin is covered.

Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord

imputeth not iniquity,

And in whose spirit there is no guile."

Psalm 32:1, 2.

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to

Thy loving-kindness:

According unto the multitude of Thy tender

mercies blot out my transgressions. . . .

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my

sin is ever before me. . . .

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean:

wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . .

Create in me a clean heart, O God;

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from Thy presence;

And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation;

And uphold me with Thy free spirit. . . .

Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, Thou

God of my salvation:

And my tongue shall sing aloud of Thy

righteousness." Psalm 51:1-14. {SC 24.3}

A repentance such as this, is beyond the reach of our own power to accomplish; it is obtained only from Christ, who ascended up on high and has given gifts unto men.

26

{SC 25.1}

Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour? {SC 26.1}

The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ. {SC 26.2}

So if one does not have repentance (the gift from God version - not a manufactured version), he does not have Christ...

This is the point Ellen White was making.

But we would need the full context to see that of course!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Norman

From what I am reading you say it seems you are not understanding what I am saying.

I think it's you who are not understanding! That is, you are not understanding those with whom you are taking issue. They are not saying anything different than what Ellen White wrote. (or Waggoner, or Prescott, or Jones). Indeed, this is where the ideas came from. They are not saying anything different from these sources, which they often quote. (I'm speaking of the 1888 MSC here, in particular. Sequeira pretty much doesn't quote anything except Scripture).

When you have time pnat, have a listen to this:

I think it spells out the position you are trying to bring across and it is laid out so simply and beautifully.

It is not an Adventist speaker, but it is a child of God (Watchman Nee), I do not agree with all of his views, but here I think he is spot on:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11102174417

[Twilight]

Have you considered this Norman:

Blood = Merits of Christ.

Bread = Word of God.

Circumcision = Cutting away of the flesh in the individuals experience from the heart and spirit.

God bless,

Mark :-)

Hi Mark, that could apply as long as is it in context. Some places that could be used and in other it wouldn't be in context. ie John 6, Jesus pretty much defines what eat my flesh and drink my blood mean, so there's no need to say they would be anything else.

Norman

[Gerr]

Quote:

Doesn't matter...the point is she didn't repent before Christ accepted her....

When Christ first came, He did not come "to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him," Jn 3:17 ESV. At the Cross God offered a general amnesty/forgiveness, but this does not do any sinner any good until the sinner makes it his own. The end of hostilities declared at Appomatox did not do the Rebs any good that kept on fighting.

Notice carefully what Jesus said to the woman. "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Your sins are forgiven, your faith has made you whole." Repentance is a change of mind and a change of direction 180 degrees, not 5 or 45 or 90 degrees. It is a turning away from sin. Jesus said, "go and sin no more." Christ was offering this woman a new start, amnesty, which He also offers to every sinner. Whether that forgiveness is accepted or not and the sinner repents will be seen in the life, i.e. whether they turn away from sin or not. But

this offer of forgiveness will not always be so. There will come a time when He will say, "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness," Mt 7:23 ESV.

[karl]

In each instance in which the EGW quotes have been provided in this discussion in an attempt to make her appear to absolve the sinner of participation in his salvation, you just need to read on a little farther or read the preceding context to get her true meaning. EGW does not preach universalism. Nor does she preach Calvinism. She is against these theologies which eliminate human choice and cooperation from the process. She preaches free will. She preaches choice. She preaches that the provision is for all. Provision. The gift is offered. Offered.

These attempts to take salvation out of the realm of choice and out of the realm of personal cooperation with the divine agencies will go away if you will just read on.

"Whosoever believeth..."

If we are going to base our theology on twisted snippets of Paul's letters we should all be Calvinists, because we can claim both justification and sanctification without any participation whatsoever.

1 Corinthians 6:11

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

[karl]

Quote:

Doesn't matter...the point is she didn't repent before Christ accepted her....

When Christ first came, He did not come "to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him," Jn 3:17 ESV. At the Cross God offered a general amnesty/forgiveness, but this does not do any sinner any good until the sinner makes it his own. The end of hostilities declared at Appomatox did not do the Rebs any good that kept on fighting.

Notice carefully what Jesus said to the woman. "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." He didn't say, "Your sins are forgiven, your faith has made you whole." Repentance is a change of mind and a change of direction 180 degrees, not 5 or 45 or 90 degrees. It is a turning away from sin. Jesus said, "go and sin no more." Christ was offering this woman a new start, amnesty, which He also offers to every sinner. Whether that forgiveness is accepted or not and the sinner repents will be seen in the life, i.e. whether they turn away from sin or not. But

this offer of forgiveness will not always be so. There will come a time when He will say, "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness," Mt 7:23 ESV.

Let me get you to clarify this. Are you saying that she was already forgiven or that she was being offered forgiveness. One has a condition, the other does not. Is forgiveness from God unconditional and universal? Was Christ's prayer on the cross "Father, forgive them" answered in the affirmative for all sins and all sinners for all time?

Important.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

"The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God." {FW 107.4}

This is a wonderful quote which reveals that the issue of acceptance with God is still an issue today as it was in the days of Paul when he was dealing with circumcision.

The question today is that same as it was then, how is a man justified, by faith or by the works of the law? Today we don't use the works of the law as we know they all have been done away. We don't have to fight with the issue of offering sacrifices or not. Rather we get caught up in what we know, how many things we've done, what we own and other works that make us think we are gaining God's favor or to put it plainly; seeking justification and righteousness by works.

But we are to seek God and His righteousness; the righteousness that comes by faith and not by works. Once we have found it and meet the terms of the new covenant (agreement) we then have peace with God because we have been justified by faith. When we realize that there is nothing we can produce that will cause God to say, "Hmmm, I like that person, I think I will let him off and give him special status" then we will know that the way we seek for peace has learned and we can now live it daily.

In Christ and His service

Norman

[Gerr]

Quote:

Let me get you to clarify this. Are you saying that she was already forgiven or that she was being offered forgiveness. One has a condition, the other does not. Is forgiveness from God unconditional and universal? Was Christ's prayer on the cross "Father, forgive them" answered in the affirmative for all sins and all sinners for all time?

Important.

From God's standpoint, forgiveness always comes first. From man's standpoint, forgiveness is not his until he repents. Recall the story of of the Prodigal Son. When did the Father forgive his son? He started waiting for the son's return the day after he left. Forgiveness was already in his heart. He did not even wait for the son to express his repentance. "While he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him." There was nothing the son did to elicit forgiveness from the father. But until he came home, the reality of that forgiveness was never his.

I have used the end of the Civil War as a modern illustration. The end of hostilities was signed at Appomatox. Peace was finally at hand. But remnants of Gen. Johnston's army in the west continued resistance. The peace declared did not do them any good. Peace & end of hostilities was declared in Tokyo harbor in 1945, but many Japanese soldiers either did not hear of it, did not believe it, or did not acknowledge it and continued to fight until as late as 1970's.

Yes, UNIVERSAL forgiveness/amnesty was declared at the Cross, but does no one any good until we accept it personally. God offers His Covenant as a free gift, but it does not do anyone any good until we personally accept it. And once we accept it, He writes the laws of his kingdom in the heart. God's promises are conditional. He will never save anyone against his will.

[Gerr]

PS

It is God's kindness that leads man to repentance. Rom 2:4

[karl]

Quote:

Let me get you to clarify this. Are you saying that she was already forgiven or that she was being offered forgiveness. One has a condition, the other does not. Is forgiveness from God unconditional and universal? Was Christ's prayer on the cross "Father, forgive them" answered in the affirmative for all sins and all sinners for all time?

Important.

Yes, UNIVERSAL forgiveness/amnesty was declared at the Cross, but does no one any good until we accept it personally. God offers His Covenant as a free gift, but it does not do anyone any good until we personally accept it. And once we accept it, He writes the laws of his kingdom in the heart. God's promises are conditional. He will never save anyone against his will.

"Had they known that they were putting to torture One who had come to save the sinful race from eternal ruin, they would have been seized with remorse and horror. But their ignorance did not remove their guilt; for it was their privilege to know and accept Jesus as their Saviour. Some of them would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them. Yet, just the same, God's purpose was reaching its fulfillment. Jesus was earning the right to become the advocate of men in the Father's presence."

[karl]

That quote above is The Desire of Ages (1898), page 744, paragraph 3

[karl]

Here is one more:

"Satan deceives many with the plausible theory that God's love for His people is so great that He will excuse sin in them; he represents that while the threatenings of God's word are to serve a certain purpose in His moral government, they are never to be literally fulfilled. But in all His dealings with his creatures God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death. The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. Such pardon would show the abandonment of the principles of righteousness, which are the very foundation of the government of God. It would fill the unfallen universe with consternation. God has faithfully pointed out the results of sin, and if these warnings were not true, how could we be sure that His promises would be fulfilled? That so-called benevolence which would set aside justice is not benevolence but weakness." Patriarchs and Prophets (1890), page 522, paragraph 2

[Gerr]

God parts the Red Sea. Condition for getting over to Canaan? Must walk across. God offers forgiveness. Condtion? Accept it and make it our own. Forgiveness is offered to EVERYONE, but not all are saved.

I have no problem with your quotes; I agree with them.

[pnattmbtc]

Hi pnattmbtc, (I've deleted some of this to keep it short - I just kept your last paragraph so people will know what I am replying to)

My contention is with what is being taught by those who believe the false "in Christ" interpretation. You have me taking sides against Weiland, Wagoner and Jones and EGW. Let's just stay with what I am talking about, please....

There is a difference in what JS is saying and what EGW is saying. He is applying it to the world and she is saying that it is for those who are one with Christ as He is one with the Father.

She is not making any reference to the "Objective Gospel" and never does. These verses are only referring to God's people. The 2nd paragraph is referring to those who have accepted Christ and are living by the Holy Spirit.

[karl]

God parts the Red Sea. Condition for getting over to Canaan? Must walk across. God offers forgiveness. Condtion? Accept it and make it our own. Forgiveness is offered to EVERYONE, but not all are saved.

I have no problem with your quotes; I agree with them.

Cool.

There is a move afoot in Adventism to turn these conditional provisions into unconditional accomplishments. I think the idea is to remove the human element of complying with the conditions.

The reasoning goes something like this: since there can be not one thread of human devising in the robe of Christ's righteousness there cannot be any effort on the part of man involved in salvation.

There is a difference between humans devising the pattern and humans cooperating under the direction of the Master Weaver in the weaving of a pattern which is of His design.

Notice the conditional "when we submit" below:

"When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah." Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 311, paragraph 4

[pnattmbtc]

From God's standpoint, forgiveness always comes first. From man's standpoint, forgiveness is not his until he repents. Recall the story of of the Prodigal Son. When did the Father forgive his son? He started waiting for the son's return the day after he left. Forgiveness was already in his heart. He did not even wait for the son to express his repentance. "While he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him." There was nothing the son did to elicit forgiveness from the father. But until he came home, the reality of that forgiveness was never his.

These are good points. I wonder if everyone agrees with this.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

From God's standpoint, forgiveness always comes first. From man's standpoint, forgiveness is not his until he repents. Recall the story of of the Prodigal Son. When did the Father forgive his son? He started waiting for the son's return the day after he left. Forgiveness was already in his heart. He did not even wait for the son to express his repentance. "While he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him." There was nothing the son did to elicit forgiveness from the father. But until he came home, the reality of that forgiveness was never his.

These are good points. I wonder if everyone agrees with this.

spiritual things are spiritually discerned and i think our sin-deadened minds make it hard to comprehend this.

it is so much easier to argue over the which "daily" to believe, which "nature of Christ", is homosexuality a sin, etc., then it is to look at and comprehend just the tiniest bit of the love God has for us, His glory.

Exo 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Exo 34:31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

Exo 34:32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

Exo 34:33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

Exo 34:34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

Exo 34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

may God help us to turn to the true "bread".

[Guest]

In each instance in which the EGW quotes have been provided in this discussion in an attempt to make her appear to absolve the sinner of participation in his salvation, you just need to read on a little farther or read the preceding context to get her true meaning. EGW does not preach universalism. Nor does she preach Calvinism. She is against these theologies which eliminate human choice and cooperation from the process. She preaches free will. She preaches choice. She preaches that the provision is for all. Provision. The gift is offered. Offered.

These attempts to take salvation out of the realm of choice and out of the realm of personal cooperation with the divine agencies will go away if you will just read on.

"Whosoever believeth..."

If we are going to base our theology on twisted snippets of Paul's letters we should all be Calvinists, because we can claim both justification and sanctification without any participation whatsoever.

1 Corinthians 6:11

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Amen...

[Robert]

If what you say is true, then why did Jesus place Mary Magdelane under the old covenant?

"Go and sin no more..."

Again, He was speaking of her sexual sins....The fact He said there's no condemnation means that He wasn't giving her the OC. The OC is "obey and live", "disobey and die".