When will our Characters reflect Jesus'

[Tom Wetmore]

...

Quote:

And exactly what is "character" anyway?

Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

These three verses, based on what was being argued not so long ago here, would suggest that since the heart is the seat of emotions that character is more about emotional commitment than anything else.

I really am not in disagreement with what you have posted. I just think that the last generation perfectionism are no more right about this topic than anyone else. But their heresy is detrimental in that it tends to discourage more than encourage. I think most all of us little understand the mechanics of salvation, ie, how exactly does God save us and exactly what goes into His perfect judgment of who is saved and who is not.

I think it more important that we simply believe that God's plan is to save us and simply trust Him to do it. Our efforts to help God do what He said He would do are utterly ineffective and often counter-productive to His efforts to save us. It's like saving a drowning person. They need to relax and let the rescuer drag them to shore. All their thrashing about, even if it looks and feels to them like struggling to swim and survive, is really aiding their drowning and making it hindering their salvation.

[Guest]

I think it more important that we simply believe that God's plan is to save us and simply trust Him to do it. Our efforts to help God do what He said He would do are utterly ineffective and often counter-productive to His efforts to save us. It's like saving a drowning person. They need to relax and let the rescuer drag them to shore. All their thrashing about, even if it looks and feels to them like struggling to swim and survive, is really aiding their drowning and making it hindering their salvation.

I think I agree with that for the most part.

[pnattmbtc]

what will be different for those alive at Christs coming than for any other generation is that we will have to have come to the point where we can survive the brightness of His coming, or the conviction that will come to all.

if we have one cherished sin when He appears the conviction of that sin will "kill" us.

It's not just cherished sin that's important in this context, but unknown sin as well. That's a crucial aspect as to what's happening in regards to the cleansing of the sanctuary.

[Robert]

Man you have some good comments....Good stuff!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

what will be different for those alive at Christs coming than for any other generation is that we will have to have come to the point where we can survive the brightness of His coming, or the conviction that will come to all.

if we have one cherished sin when He appears the conviction of that sin will "kill" us.

It's not just cherished sin that's important in this context, but unknown sin as well. That's a crucial aspect as to what's happening in regards to the cleansing of the sanctuary.

i agree with that, but based on my experience God is well able to bring all sin to my consciousness in which case it simplifies, for me, into cherished sin versus forsaken sin. sin i abhor and want nothing to do with.

[teresaq]

These three verses, based on what was being argued not so long ago here, would suggest that since the heart is the seat of emotions that character is more about emotional commitment than anything else.

I really am not in disagreement with what you have posted. I just think that the last generation perfectionism are no more right about this topic than anyone else. But their heresy is detrimental in that it tends to discourage more than encourage. I think most all of us little understand the mechanics of salvation, ie, how exactly does God save us and exactly what goes into His perfect judgment of who is saved and who is not.

I think it more important that we simply believe that God's plan is to save us and simply trust Him to do it. Our efforts to help God do what He said He would do are utterly ineffective and often counter-productive to His efforts to save us. It's like saving a drowning person. They need to relax and let the rescuer drag them to shore. All their thrashing about, even if it looks and feels to them like struggling to swim and survive, is really aiding their drowning and making it hindering their salvation.

i agree and am so grateful to have worked through most of my "issues" regarding this tiny part of our sanctuary doctrine. a tiny part that we took out of our sanctuary doctrine which was all about Christ saving us, and magnified that tiny part to the harm of so many.

again, i like other perspectives to this event also. i believe altogether they make a beautiful well-rounded picture.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

These three verses, based on what was being argued not so long ago here, would suggest that since the heart is the seat of emotions that character is more about emotional commitment than anything else.

I really am not in disagreement with what you have posted. I just think that the last generation perfectionism are no more right about this topic than anyone else. But their heresy is detrimental in that it tends to discourage more than encourage. I think most all of us little understand the mechanics of salvation, ie, how exactly does God save us and exactly what goes into His perfect judgment of who is saved and who is not.

I think it more important that we simply believe that God's plan is to save us and simply trust Him to do it. Our efforts to help God do what He said He would do are utterly ineffective and often counter-productive to His efforts to save us. It's like saving a drowning person. They need to relax and let the rescuer drag them to shore. All their thrashing about, even if it looks and feels to them like struggling to swim and survive, is really aiding their drowning and making it hindering their salvation.

i agree and am so grateful to have worked through most of my "issues" regarding this tiny part of our sanctuary doctrine. a tiny part that we took out of our sanctuary doctrine which was all about Christ saving us, and magnified that tiny part to the harm of so many.

again, i like other perspectives to this event also. i believe altogether they make a beautiful well-rounded picture.

Its true we cannot save our selves, but we still cooperate in the process, there is things we need to do. I'm uncomfortable with Tom's analogy of someone drowning.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful to death, and I will give you a crown of life.

Mat 5:28 But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:29 And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if your right hand offend you, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Although Jesus here is addressing adultery, the principle is the same. So He means here that if a man has a problem with staring at and lusting after women, he does not literally pluck his eye out, Christ is saying do what it takes to overcome the sin.

So one can pray, memorize key texts.Do not walk on the beach in summer where there are women in bikinis. When a woman is in view dressed provocatively, don't give the second lingering look, etc.

If one struggles with drugs and alcohol and accepts Jesus and has the Holy Spirit, we do not sit back and expect God to "make" us do right, we take action. We get the beer out of the fridge, or toss the drugs in the trash. Do not associate with "friends" we formerly got loaded with. We may need to move out of downtown, pray more, read the Bible more and do church, whatever it takes to overcome sin in the power of the Holy Spirit, but we also must surrender our will to Him.

That is what it means to:

..."work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil.2:12)

This is also part of the process of sanctification.

[Woody]

Man you have some good comments....Good stuff!

I agree with your agreement of Tom's comments.

But, I disagree with Steve's attempts to kick you out of the church and have you go to another denomination.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am delighted when I find simple truth in unexpected places. I was pleasantly surprised to find this topic addressed in the syndicated advise column "Ask Amy" in response to an unexpected question about a church problem. While this isn't a new thought, her concluding statement puts this topic in perspective rather nicely to remember that "a Christian is not someone who is perfect, but who is forgiven."

We are far too preoccupied with sanctification, IMHO. And too often its a preoccupation of measuring relative sanctification, comparing mine with yours. Our preoccupation should be on the sanctification already secured by Jesus on our behalf.

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

[Steve Billiter]

I am delighted when I find simple truth in unexpected places. I was pleasantly surprised to find this topic addressed in the syndicated advise column "Ask Amy" in response to an unexpected question about a church problem. While this isn't a new thought, her concluding statement puts this topic in perspective rather nicely to remember that "a Christian is not someone who is perfect, but who is forgiven."

We are far too preoccupied with sanctification, IMHO. And too often its a preoccupation of measuring relative sanctification, comparing mine with yours. Our preoccupation should be on the sanctification already secured by Jesus on our behalf.

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

Tom I highly recommend the study of sanctification to see just what it is. It is not justification imputed to the sinner at conversion. Sanctification is the work of a life time.

I have and am studying it.

[Steve Billiter]

The Spirit is given as a regenerating agency, to make effectual the salvation wrought by the death of our Redeemer. The Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the great offering that was made on the cross of Calvary, to unfold to the world the love of God, and to open to the convicted soul the precious things of the Scriptures. {AA 52.4}

Having brought conviction of sin, and presented before the mind the standard of righteousness, the Holy Spirit

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withdraws the affections from the things of this earth and fills the soul with a desire for holiness. "He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein. {AA 52.5}

In his anxiety that the believers at Thessalonica should walk in the fear of God, the apostle pleaded with them to reveal practical godliness in the daily life. "We beseech you, brethren," he wrote, "and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication." "For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." {AA 262.1}

The apostle felt that he was to a large extent responsible for the spiritual welfare of those converted under his labors. His desire for them was that they might increase in a knowledge of the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He had sent. Often in his ministry he would meet with little companies of men and women who loved Jesus, and bow with them in prayer, asking God to teach them how to maintain a living connection with Him. Often he took counsel with them as to the best methods of giving to others the light of gospel truth. And often, when separated from those for whom he had thus labored, he pleaded with God to keep them from evil and help them to be earnest, active missionaries. {AA 262.2}

One of the strongest evidences of true conversion is love to God and man. Those who accept Jesus as their Redeemer have a deep, sincere love for others of like precious faith. Thus it was with the believers at Thessalonica. "As touching

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brotherly love," the apostle wrote, "ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; and that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; that ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing." {AA 262.3}

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I am delighted when I find simple truth in unexpected places. I was pleasantly surprised to find this topic addressed in the syndicated advise column "Ask Amy" in response to an unexpected question about a church problem. While this isn't a new thought, her concluding statement puts this topic in perspective rather nicely to remember that "a Christian is not someone who is perfect, but who is forgiven."

We are far too preoccupied with sanctification, IMHO. And too often its a preoccupation of measuring relative sanctification, comparing mine with yours. Our preoccupation should be on the sanctification already secured by Jesus on our behalf.

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

Tom I highly recommend the study of sanctification to see just what it is. It is not justification imputed to the sinner at conversion. Sanctification is the work of a life time.

I have and am studying it.

Thus far, I have seen no evidence that you have done as I suggested.

I did not suggest regurgitating what others have said on the subject, but to simply use Scripture and only Scripture to see how the word sanctification and its various word forms are used.

[karl]

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

We've got three choices regarding sanctification.

1. We do it solo

2. God does it solo

3. God and we do it together.

If God does it solo, everyone is sanctified, because "this is the will of God, even your sanctification."

Throw all the texts and SOP you want at it. These three choices remain.

1. Legalism

2. Universalism or Calvinism

3. Historic Adventism

[pnattmbtc]

My understanding of sanctification is that it is by faith, just as justification is by faith, and is the process of justification being applied throughout one's lifetime. Put another way, sanctification is the result of continued justification.

[pnattmbtc]

4. Meritorious/Demonstrative. Righteousness “in Christ” "is the only means of our salvation and, unless we resist and reject it, it fully qualifies us for heaven both now and in the judgement." (Jack Sequeria, Beyond Belief)

Sequeria misses the mark again, very poor theology. Cheap grace is no grace.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Unless that righteousness by faith results in keeping the commandments, there is no qualifications for heaven.

I would have said it this way, "The righteousness of Christ is the only means of our salvation and, unless we resist and reject it, it fully qualifies us for heaven both now and in the judgment."

The only righteousness there is is the righteousness of Christ. Anything else is a sham. Only the righteousness of Christ can result in obedience to the law.

Would you agree with this?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

We've got three choices regarding sanctification.

1. We do it solo

2. God does it solo

3. God and we do it together.

If God does it solo, everyone is sanctified, because "this is the will of God, even your sanctification."

Throw all the texts and SOP you want at it. These three choices remain.

1. Legalism

2. Universalism or Calvinism

3. Historic Adventism

I disagree with both of you in part. Jesus also gave the SOP, and all Scripture.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The formation of character for heaven is so closely tied to sanctification, it is virtually indistinguishable. Sanctification means being set apart for Holy use.

Deu 26:17 You have avouched the LORD this day to be your God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to listen to his voice:

Deu 26:18 And the LORD has avouched you this day to be his peculiar people, as he has promised you, and that you should keep all his commandments;

Deu 26:19 And to make you high above all nations which he has made, in praise, and in name, and in honor; and that you may be an holy people to the LORD your God, as he has spoken.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

It doesn't just happen by magic at the time of justification. Is the true pastor of the remnant church fully qualified to shepherd his flock God entrusts to him at the time o f his own justification? No. Is the evangelist? No again.The Bible worker?

Years ago when I first went out with others doing literature work, I needed to learn just how to do that; to learn how to talk to people who don't know Christ.

These, as all others in Christ must die to self daily and put on Christ. God will send and allow trials to come our way to reveal sins an character flaws that we may have opportunity to correct them. Time is needed for serious study along with examination by the professors in seminary. Time is also needed for experience gained in the walk with Christ.How has the Lord signally worked for you? What has He done in your life as you submit to His will? Victories won that seemingly were headed for defeat are lifted up to God for thanksgiving and praise.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you:

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Pe 4:14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are you; for the spirit of glory and of God rests on you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer to the LORD an offering in righteousness.

In the Spirit of Prophecy, Jesus has plainly spelled out the steps in the sanctification process. This, taken together with all other Bible evidence is what the Lord has revealed to me about the sanctification process. there is an EGW book named The Sanctified Life which is an excellent read.

We add virtues to the life as well as letting God correct and refine our character; and yes, this is God's work in us

We cannot do this on our own, but we must cooperate.

"In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord."

"The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

We've got three choices regarding sanctification.

1. We do it solo

2. God does it solo

3. God and we do it together.

I disagree with both of you in part. Jesus also gave the SOP, and all Scripture.

[big snip]

We cannot do this on our own, but we must cooperate.

[big snip]

Thank you. That would be #3 above.

[Tom Wetmore]

Where is the only choice that matters, the Biblical one?

What does Scripture say?

Jesus himself said, " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." What is the truth? Jesus said, " I am the Truth..."

Or consider Hebrews 10:10,14 -

Quote:

...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[Steve Billiter]

Tom said:

I would invite each of you to do a Scripture word study on the word sanctification and its various word forms. Pay close attention to who is active, who does what. Start with John 17 to get the perspective on sanctification of Jesus himself.

[pnattmbtc]

Steve, you said you were disagreeing in part with both karl and Tom, but I didn't see you state what that disagreement was. What did you disagree with that karl and Tom said?

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus himself said, " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." What is the truth? Jesus said, " I am the Truth..."

The truth that sanctifies: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

[Steve Billiter]

It should be clear that Tom never spelled out exactly what his theology is, or to what to that I have posted he objects to.

Karl just leaves a vague narrow definition of the 3

ways to class and identify sanctification, which really says nothing I can see upon the 3rd item unless he further expounds upon what the 'historic Adventism" view is. Sometimes labels like that can lead to confusion because "historic Adventism" is not clearly defined. Some can be quite the extremists.

Let me further clarify that its not so much as a "disagreement" as a request from both as for needful edification. My apologies.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Thanks Tom, but I need specifics. When one says, "Go study the Bible and you will find out what you are missing, and by the way, you may be able to figure out my points that you really miss, especially when I do not tell you what that is!"

This just leaves me scratching my head in wonderment!

And to my knowledge, I have not regurgitated what others have said. Perhaps you would be more exact upon the things you speak of, so we are not left in confusion.

Well Tom, since I'm not a mind reader, why don't you just spell out where my theology is in error? It could be that the texts in John, whichever they are, is something I just haven't had time to address.But if you have some good points to make upon Bible sanctification, then I want to know about them to deepen my understanding.

I have not left you with any reason for head scratching, wonderment or mind reading.

I really don't know how more specific I can get. Do you know what a Biblical word study is? It is focusing on a specific word (and its variations) as used in Scripture. Consider all the texts where it is used in their context. Let Scripture speak for itself. Set aside any preconceived ideas you might have. And don't take my word, EGW's or anyone else's word for it. (Take EGW's own words to heart to not use her writings until you have first diligently read, studied and understand what the Bible itself says...) Find out for yourself.

The word is "sanctification". Read and study all the texts using that word. Also read all the texts using "sanctify", "sanctified", "sanctifies", "sanctifying", "sanctifieth".

Consider carefully the original Greek and Hebrew words (and their variations) translated as any of the above and carefully consider the texts where those Hebrew and Greek words are translated as another English word.

When you have done all that, you should have a better understanding of the Biblical meaning of sanctification.

I have already given you 3 texts in the post above to get started.

[karl]

Where is the only choice that matters, the Biblical one?

What does Scripture say?

Jesus himself said, " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." What is the truth? Jesus said, " I am the Truth..."

Or consider Hebrews 10:10,14 -

Quote:

...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So, are you going with Universalism or Calvinism?

[Steve Billiter]

Where is the only choice that matters, the Biblical one?

What does Scripture say?

Jesus himself said, " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." What is the truth? Jesus said, " I am the Truth..."

Or consider Hebrews 10:10,14 -

Quote:

...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]... For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Tom, you seem to mean by Hebrews 10:14, we are sanctified at once by Christ at justification and thats the end of it.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Christ offered His sacrifice one time. "Perfected forever" should carry the meaning of eternity, "Are sanctified" denotes a current and ongoing process. Nowhere does scripture say that the full attainment of the perfect character of men is immediate and ends at justification.

The prophet of the LORD, Ellen White, through inspiration really nails it down here:

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no

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stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. {AA 561.1}

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him.

At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. {AA 561.2}