Should Adventists own guns?

[LifeHiscost]

Of course, I probably could manage at really close range, which is where the dog would have to be before I tried to shoot him anyway. I'm not going to hurt him for doing his job of protecting his people, only if he actually tried to attack would I do anything to harm him. I do carry a squirt gun full of straight ammonia to shoot him in the face if he does, but I have serious doubts that it would work well enough to save me. I need a super soaker, but I don't want to carry anything that big with me.

Anyway, the dog is getting old, and I am hoping and praying he won't be around much longer. He HAS to go sometime, right?

What about carrying one of those high voltage zappers? It'll take down a 250# man. It ought to hold off a dog. And the dog could live to another day to attack you That is unless it gave him a heart attack.

They even have zappers that fit over your hand like a pair of brass knuckles so they couldn't be yanked out of your hand.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

You can have all the faith in the world and still get your head chopped off if you look sideways at some people.

His faith that God would protect Him would not go unheeded when asking for that protection. There are troubles we get ourselves into but even those God does not abandon His own.

"The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life." " Job 1:12;2:6 NIV

True, some Christians have tragedy occur to them they don't understand. However an "in your face" faith in God makes it much more difficult to find security in promises disdained.

[GreatLakesGramma]

What about carrying one of those high voltage zappers? It'll take down a 250# man. It ought to hold off a dog. And the dog could live to another day to attack you That is unless it gave him a heart attack.

They even have zappers that fit over your hand like a pair of brass knuckles so they couldn't be yanked out of your hand.

Blessings!

Those are illegal in Michigan. I checked on them first thing, before anything else.

[LifeHiscost]

The upshot of all this is that I currently do own and enjoy shooting weapons, but I'm not obsessed with them and I don't hunt any more. I stopped a long time ago after I shot an owl but only wounded it and had to club it to death because I ran out of bullets. I can still see its wondering, frightened eyes looking up at me before I swung the rifle butt.

Reminds me of a story by a friend of mine who, before he became an Adventist, was considered by his hunting companions to be the one they wanted to be with since he usually bagged his deer first, then continued hunting on the permits of those who hadn't yet "bagged " their's.

When he made his last hunting trip after becoming an Adventist, he came to pull down on a beautiful full horned buck, the buck looking straight at him when my friend took his first shot. My friend knew he had hit the buck straight in the chest, but instead of the buck going down, he started running straight toward where the shots came from. Despite my friend drawing down at least four more times with clear shots, even seeing the bullets entering the buck continued running toward my friend until at the last shot, the buck sank down perhaps less than ten feet in front of the place from where my friend was firing.

It was hard to know exactly how to describe how he felt when the buck at last collapsed in front of him, but the experience was so unnerving, the buck was such a beautiful animal, and the damage done to the front of the animal so gross it proved to be the last time he ever was tempted to

treat God's animals as sporting objects for the sake of killing. And he eventually became a vegetarian, though I'm not sure it was immediately.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will."Matthew 10:29 NKJV

[Guest]

That's why I don't hunt. I don't want to kill anything.

[LifeHiscost]

Haven't read this whole thread, just bits and pieces, but based on the bitterness and aggression shown in the thread, my strong impression is that SDAs should never own guns.

And if this were my only contact with Adventists, I would be praying much for my own sense of need to carry a gun in the presence of same. The book, "A Thousand May Fall" is a necessary faith builder for this forum, if not this thread.

Faith!!

[Woody]

That's why I don't hunt. I don't want to kill anything.

Guess you will just have to get hired help for that shoulder.

[LifeHiscost]

Back to my original question. If your family were threatened with death or harm and the opportunity presented itself would you call 911.

Knowing they would come with guns and possibly a highly trained swat team.Their basic function is to kill if necessary.

Would you expect someone else to do what you felt was wrong?

Does this hold true for expecting someone else to possibly kill on behalf of your family?

could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship?

Possibly you are a true pacifist and would not.But if you would what is the difference except you are keeping your hands clean while wanting others to do what you feel would be a sin

Very good question, as you've made before. And no it wouldn't bother me. For the Word clearly points out that the governing authorities are appointed as ministers of God's justice. And I'm assuming you believe He will do the right thing by whoever would receive His wrath through His appointed servants?

"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."Romans 13:2-4 NKJV

I had a personal friend who decided to take justice into his own hands, to keep an intruder from breaking up his family. This friend was an upstanding citizen in the community, a member of the church with a beautiful family, worthy of whatever he could do to preserve the sanctity of his marriage.

The trouble is the person who was the intruder was a policeman, so not feeling he could go to the normal law enforcement venue to get justice, my friend hired a hit man to "scare" the intruder away.

As God would have it, the hitman was intercepted before reaching his target, confessed to whatever was pertinent to save his own skin, and my friend was arrested and subsequently tried for complicity to commit murder.

My friend evidently was found guilty of a lesser charge as his sentence amounted to two years in a state prison, with time served in the county jail while the trial was going on as part of the sentence satisfied.

My friend was extremely fortunate the hitman was stopped before something more serious occurred for he might have been up for 15 years to life if a murder had taken place. All for the decision to protect his family with a gun, granted it was a hired gun.

Now, do you think he might have been better off if he had been a pacifist with trust that God would work out the best for all concerned as they allowed Him to have that authority?

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Very, very true. My best friend was married to a dangerously abusive man. Once he started to choke her, but she cried out to Jesus, and the man was thrown by invisible hands against the bedroom wall and held there, struggling to get free, cursing and screaming at her, for most of the night. She got in bed and went to sleep. I don't think I could have.

And that's one of those circumstances that some people just refuse to believe, that calling on the lord, using His name to answer the present danger can reveal how close God wishes us to be with Him. I'd tell a story here but I think I've told it before. Just wish to say, Praise God, for His tender mercies.

"...and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer.

Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”

Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” "

John 19:9-11 NKJV

JOY!!

[LifeHiscost]

I do not want a gun in my house, mainly for safety reasons. Plus, I'm not so sure I could shoot and kill someone myself, even though I do not believe it is wrong to do so in defense of innocent lives, including one's own. But I would definitely call the police and have them come on the double to do it for me, if needed.

Still, this thread has brought to mind the story of the missionaries who were killed by the Waodani in Ecuador. The movie End of the Spear was based on that story. In the movie, as missionary pilot Nate Saint prepared to take his group to make direct contact with the Waodani for the first time, when asked by his son Steve why he wouldn't take guns, he told Steve, "Son, we can't kill the Waodani. They aren't ready to die. We are."

Not that this means it's wrong to kill evil persons in defense of innocent lives. No, but I do believe we should each allow our lives to be guided by the Holy Spirit at all times and in all situations, such that if the time ever came that we must make such a choice, we would be able to discern His Spirit speaking HIS will for that time.

Great logic, GLG. And if we do that instead of letting the opinion of others dissuade us from walking where Jesus leads, we could, if not save us from trouble, we could be sure the trouble that did transpire would not overwhelm us.

"Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the LORD your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.”"Deuteronomy 31:6 NKJV

All we have to do is believe what He's told us.

JOY!!

[Guest]

I've got a couple of friends that are more gung ho about guns than I am.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Very good question, as you've made before. And no it wouldn't bother me. For the Word clearly points out that the governing authorities are appointed as ministers of God's justice. And I'm assuming you believe He will do the right thing by whoever would receive His wrath through His appointed servants?

You would only be concerned about this ...could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship? if you defended your wife and and family.

If a governing authority uses guns,not a problem You are not concerned with taking away their opportunity to meet Jesus.

Quote:

Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Romans 13:2-4 NKJV

Anyone in a position to harm your family has already resisted authority.Remember they may not have come to know Christ before you call 911

Quote:

I had a personal friend who decided to take justice into his own hands, to keep an intruder from breaking up his family. This friend was an upstanding citizen in the community, a member of the church with a beautiful family, worthy of whatever he could do to preserve the sanctity of his marriage.

The trouble is the person who was the intruder was a policeman, so not feeling he could go to the normal law enforcement venue to get justice, my friend hired a hit man to "scare" the intruder away.

As God would have it, the hitman was intercepted before reaching his target, confessed to whatever was pertinent to save his own skin, and my friend was arrested and subsequently tried for complicity to commit murder.

My friend evidently was found guilty of a lesser charge as his sentence amounted to two years in a state prison, with time served in the county jail while the trial was going on as part of the sentence satisfied.

My friend was extremely fortunate the hitman was stopped before something more serious occurred for he might have been up for 15 years to life if a murder had taken place. All for the decision to protect his family with a gun, granted it was a hired gun.

Blessings!!

No one is claiming murder is right and that is what it would have been.Murder is not self defense All for the decision to protect his family with a gun, granted it was a hired gun.

Quote:

Now, do you think he might have been better off if he had been a pacifist with trust that God would work out the best for all concerned as they allowed Him to have that authority?

With this you have no excuse at anytime to call for the aid of any autority.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I had a personal friend who decided to take justice into his own hands, to keep an intruder from breaking up his family. This friend was an upstanding citizen in the community, a member of the church with a beautiful family, worthy of whatever he could do to preserve the sanctity of his marriage.

This was not a life-threatening situation. Nobody, no matter how upstanding a citizen, or respected a member of a church, has any moral right to hire a criminal to kill or otherwise intimidate his wife's lover. Nobody is "worthy" of this kind of measure to "preserve the sanctity of his marriage." Any wife with any brains at all would divorce a husband who would do such a criminal act. There is not really much difference between that man's actions and that of a man who threatens to kill his wife if she leaves him.

This is a totally different kind of situation than anything that has been brought up previously in this thread.

[hch]

I did not take time to read all 19-pages of this thread. Just spots here and there.

Remember that Jesus said something like this: "if you live by the gun, you'll die by the gun." If it was not right for Christ's followers to use deadly force to rescue Him from certain death, who among us is able to discern when it is right to employ deadly force?

But alas the mindset of this generation is different from even that of our SDA pioneers. In the Civil war SDA's on the side of the north bought their way out of military service when possible rather than bearing arms against the "rebels" who they were trying to evangelize.

This murder vs killing mindset that prevails in the Church today is not of God.

In America, SDA's now enlist in the army. So when the earth-beast orders his troops to fight this war or that war will SDA's be fighting SDA's when nation shall rise up against nation?

Better to err on the side of righteousness, turn the other cheek, and live the life of faith and leave killing to the father of murder and his disciples.

SDA's are not called to be Rambos.

As I see it, when Jesus divides the sheep from the goats, it is impossible to visualize the sheep as packing pistols. Now the goats might be armed to the teeth and depending on their own self-preservation instincts. But the sheep will be of the mindset that whosoever looses his life for Christ's sake will save it rather than to be deceived into thinking that by saving their life here they will also save it in the hereafter.

Alas the Laodiceans will do what they see best BUT when they meet their LORD and are divided: the 5-foolish Virgins from the 5-wise, the fools will see that their lack of faith or their trust in their self will have been their undoing.

To own a gun or not to own a gun? How many guns did Jesus own when He was on earth? And what army did He join?

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

[phkrause]

I've got a couple of friends that are more gung ho about guns than I am.

That's not fare Richard, you have backup should you be attacked. LOL

pk

[LifeHiscost]

To own a gun or not to own a gun? How many guns did Jesus own when He was on earth? And what army did He join?

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

And lest we forget, Jesus came as Commander in Chief despite what His humble appearance might lead us to believe. Granted that by His own Words He turned over His power to His Father while He was here the first time, but settling the score will take place when He comes the third time.

And thus it will be for His followers. On occasion the Father even now takes extreme measures to protect His own. However it is the exception that proves the rule. When we choose the devil's devices to solve the Lord's problems of His children, we prove ourselves to be erring children at best, and volunteers in someone else's army at the worst. Time will reveal the reality.

"So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”" Matthew 13:27-31 NKJV

"And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands."

1 Samuel 17:47 KJV

It is true there are scriptures that tell of God's instruction to David to fight the Lord's battles. And if a person is so inclined to head up the army that is provided by God to fight a battle, then so be it. I personally think God's shoulders much more capable than mine at winning battles, and He knows how far to carry them as well as knowing the hearts of the people antagonistic to the safety of His children.

Joy!!

[Woody]

Just like Neil hires others to use guns for him ... God had David and others do the dirty work.

[Guest]

Just like Neil hires others to use guns for him ... God had David and others do the dirty work.

Are you sure you want to compare God to Neil? Do you really think they're in the same boat? I hope lightning doesn't strike you. As a matter of fact I'm glad there's a couple of states between us.

For one thing, God's work is not dirty.

[SivartM]

Any particular reason for bashing Neil? Or is it just fun? Should I try?

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

To own a gun or not to own a gun? How many guns did Jesus own when He was on earth? And what army did He join?

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

I personally think God's shoulders much more capable than mine at winning battles, and He knows how far to carry them as well as knowing the hearts of the people antagonistic to the safety of His children.

Joy!!

Amen and amen

[bonnie]

You still neglected to answer this.

You give as one reason for not using physical self defense as ...could they be sure they hadn't taken away that person's opportunity to meet Jesus in a saving relationship? What happens to this reasoning as you are calling 911 if the opportunity presents itself.

If in fact someone is fatally harmed as a result of your call is it then somehow not important if they have had an opportunity to meet Jesus? Because you have used a governing authority you no longer care?

Quote:

And thus it will be for His followers. On occasion the Father even now takes extreme measures to protect His own. However it is the exception that proves the rule. When we choose the devil's devices to solve the Lord's problems of His children, we prove ourselves to be erring children at best, and volunteers in someone else's army at the worst. Time will reveal the reality.

None of us will ever know on this earth the number of times God has intervened to keep us from harm. There are times all of us can point to that it is obvious our families were not spared harm and death.

Weren't they christian enough,didn't pray enough?

We had a murder in our small town not long ago. Young mother killed in front of her children.The fact God did not go to extreme measures to protect her says what? From all that knew her she was a well regarded christian mother.

If she had not fought desperately for her life would God have spared her? Do you think her death means she was part of someone else's army. Or was she just a erring child that did wrong by defending herself and inflicting injuries?

Should she have waited for the angels that don't seem to have come to protect her?

Quote:

"So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:27-31 NKJV

While each to their own opinion I have a tough time believing that God meant to let those that would wantonly without cause take the life of another grow with the wheat.

Quote:

It is true there are scriptures that tell of God's instruction to David to fight the Lord's battles. And if a person is so inclined to head up the army that is provided by God to fight a battle, then so be it. I personally think God's shoulders much more capable than mine at winning battles, and He knows how far to carry them as well as knowing the hearts of the people antagonistic to the safety of His children.

Then I certainly hope you would never think of calling a governing authority for any reason as God is more capable than you or them

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Just like Neil hires others to use guns for him ... God had David and others do the dirty work.

Are you sure you want to compare God to Neil?

No. But Neil is a valued member of this community.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Any particular reason for bashing Neil? Or is it just fun? Should I try?

Be nice, Sivart.

They are referring to the fact that Neil feels it's wrong to own/use a gun of his own, but would be OK with calling the police to come with theirs.

[SivartM]

Sorry. It just didn't seem to me like Richard was being very nice. :\

[Guest]

What's not nice about defending God?