"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[John317]

...But God is not like that. He is motivated by righteousness, not by the feelings of His creatures. Before the great controversy began, throughout all of its duration, and in its final resolution, God has and will act with unvarying consistency.

....God is not concerned about clearing His name for His own personal interest. He is not proud. He does not take personal offence. But He does understand that His character and the principles of righteousness are one and the same. Therefore, the justification of one assures the establishment of the other.

He further knows that the eternal happiness and security of the universe depend on the vindication of those principles. Inasmuch as His everlasting and infinite love for all His children will not permit Him to provide anything less than the perfect best for them, He is determined not to permit the ultimate desecration of righteousness. He will establish it eternally....

You are quite right that God is not motivated by selfishness or merely thinking of his own personal interest.

But He certainly is concerned about clearing His name--- since "name" is the same thing as His character. And God does care about showing the universe that He is right in the Great Controversy. In

fact, the entire security and peace and safety of the whole univese depends on it, and God knows it.

I agree with the rest of what you have written here. But it is for those very reasons that He will destroy and execute judgment upon the wicked. Their destruction will not be left up to arbitrary forces but will be due to God's unlimited, wise, and loving control over His universe. When the controversy is finished, every intelligent creature will declare that God's judgment have been just and right, and all-- even the wicked-- will acknowledge that those who are destroyed first destroyed themselves by their daily choices. No one will say God is like the devil because He "executed justice upon the wicked."

Please read again GC 665-66.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: I read his little booklets a lot but I am not angry nor do I get mad or call people names, nor do I judge people for their sins or their bad theology.

Quote:

ROBERT: Well John, I'm glad you have arrived...that you are perfect. So go ahead and brag if you wish....Bottom line is until you walk in my shoes you can't judge me.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying I've "arrived." I'm trying to give you hope by showing you what God can do, and what He does do, in people's lives. I don't merit anything. I'm not bragging. I have nothing to brag about. Do you think that when God performs a miracle in someone's life, that they deserve it or that they have anything to "brag" about? I don't think so.

I am not judging you. If I judged you I would be judging myself because for most of my life I believe I was far worse than you ever thought of being. The only reason I am no longer like that is due to God's grace. It is certainly not because I myself am any good. Of myself, I'm not good. Of myself-- without others praying for me, and apart from God's unmerited favor-- I would no doubt either be in prison now or dead.

Would you like it better if I told you that you will always have the same problems you have now and that God can't help you get over any of them? I don't think you would like it, but sometimes that's what it sounds like to me.

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: The Scriptures clearly teach that this fire does not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked any more than strong delusions are sent directly out from the Lord to those who do not receive the love of the truth. This is what the Bible teaches and nothing else. Never at any time is the Lord the executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

What do you think Ellen White means when she says God breaths fire on them? It shows that the fire comes out of God. The Bible is showing the same thing when it says the fire comes from God out of heaven. The same thing is found in Lev. 10: 2. The fire comes out from the Lord and destroys sin and sinners who are holding on to sin and whom the Lord judges. God is a consuming fire to sin. He either cleanses us of sin and takes it out of us, if we allow Him to, or His holiness will crush us when He destroys sin. He can't destroy sin without also destroying those who want to keep it. At the end, it is as if He throws open the doors of the kingdom and invites everyone in, and some thrive in His glorious presence whereas others are destroyed because of their sinful, rebellious condition. I believe the biblical evidence suggests that sin actually changes us so that we can't live in His presence when He doesn't protect us from His full glory like He did with Moses.

[skyblue888]

John, What do you think God meant when He said that He will send strong delusion to those who do not receive the love of the truth?

[skyblue888]

Is it right to infer that another needs to sit at the feet of Jesus, just because they disagree with you Sky?

I am sitting at the feet of Jesus my friend.

I just do not agree with what you are presenting.

It is a half truth in my mind, presented as the whole truth.

Have you considered that it is because I am sitting at the feet of Jesus that I cannot accept what you are saying, because it is error?

In love,

Mark :-)

Nothing wrong with saying that "we" need to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn of Him. Mark, if the hat fits, wear it, as the saying goes. You say you cannot accept what I am saying. I have not said one thing that was not from inspiration. I have only quoted from the Bible or the SoP. The Lord Jesus asked, "How readest thou?" In the Bible and in the SoP He has given us the keys to explain the messages sent to us. These are the keys to the kingdom. If we refuse to use these keys how in the world will we be able to understand the deep things of God?

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

That means that one statement from the SoP will be explained by another statement, so on and so forth, just as a passage of Scripture is explained by another. This is what I have done for many years and it has paid off.

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Mark, we need to sit at the feet of Jesus in order to understand the deep things of God.

The superficial reader will never understand this language unless he is willing to leave all his preconceived opinions at the door of investigation and let the Holy Spirit be the Teacher.

Does this mean you do not think that I sit at the feet of Jesus and learn brother?

Does this mean I am just reading superficially?

How can you possibly know that?

Mark :-)

________________________________________

You shall know them by their fruits, by what they teach and do. Right? We have no other way of knowing that except by what others teach and how they teach it. You are doing this with me right now believing that I am teaching error. We must know what truth is and know that God will vindicate His truth. You yourself confessed, not too long ago, to be a rookie when it came to this topic and yet after stating that your have been talking as though your mind was already made up and that those who disagreed with your views had to be teaching error. It would seem to me that some have closed their eyes and shut their ears concerning some of the clearest commentaries from the SoP, commentaries without which I would still be where many are today, adhering to the traditional view of God based on a misinterpretation of the Old Testament Scriptures.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

How do you know that Gods "glory" does not manifest itself in a "physical" manner?

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Mark, don't u get it? the quotes cited by pnatt in the above post contain the "keys" graciously given to us by the Holy Spirit who is the Teacher of God's people to unlock the meaning of the quotes you are talking about.

sky

I do not agree Sky.

They are proof texts taken out of context to present a view that Ellen White did not believe.

Ellen White stated that God destroys personally and permissively.

The Bible states the same.

Nowhere in either will we find the principle that only permissive destruction is rendered.

Mark

When we read the words of the Bible which say that "God killed Saul and turned the kingdom over to David," we couldn't find words more graphic than that, or could we? If anyone was looking for evidence that God kills, it would seem that this would have to be an irrefutable example. But those who know God as it is their privilege to know Him do not read these words exactly the same way the man on the street does.

When the man on the street reads what God said to David, because of his sin, "I will raise up evil against you out of your own house," he right away says in his heart, See! God did it! When he reads that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart," again he thinks as a man. God did that too. When that same man reads about the flood, "God said to Noah, 'The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and behold, I will destroy them with the earth,'" (Gen.6:12), he does not think twice about the meaning of the words he just read. Why should he? He sees God as though He was altogether like him. See Psalm 50:21. He is absolutely sure that these words can mean nothing except as they read, that God personally and directly caused that cataclysm in order to destroy those who did not appreciate His efforts to save them. That man sees God in a false light. He does not know that He is looking at God clothed in the attributes of Satan. It is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures God's glory from his view. He needs to be taught at the feet of Jesus. He needs to become aware of the fact that God's thoughts and ways are as different from the thoughts and ways of sinful men as the heavens are as far from the earth. (Isaiah 55:8,9)

It is perfectly understandable that the man on the street is not concerned with the idea of digging deeper into the mine of truth in order to understand the language of Heaven. There are good chances that the man on the street will never be able to understand the deep things of the Word of God, unless he is led to humble himself at the foot of the cross and accept to be taught at the school of Christ. After all, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

But if the people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have no more understanding about these things than the man on the street, especially when the Lord has sent to them testimonies after testimonies to help them unlock the meaning of these passages of Scripture that they might become vessels fit for the Master's use, what then?

How sad these words, "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misinterpreted the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

How could this happen? "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.48\92.

"In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His Word, they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.594.

sky

[skyblue888]

excellent thoughts, pnatt!

God be praised.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: There is no possible way that Ellen White could answer the question I'm asking you, which is why you think God would be capable of the things you think He will do, most specifically setting people on fire to cause them to "suffer torture" for many days.

This is a personal question. It has to do with your values, your conception of God's character. Only you can answer this.

....I'm asking specifically about the idea that God will set people on fire to suffer excruciating pain while being burned alive, something Ellen White describes as being made to "suffer torture." I'm asking specifically about this. Not about destroying the wicked in general, nor even destroying the wicked by fire (if this were to happen in a moment, as fire normally works, that would be a different question; it would certainly be more merciful than the idea that God has people burning literally on fire for days like a torch).

....This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm asking. I'm asking about your concept of God's character, your sense of morality, why these personal values you hold allow you to believe that God will set people on fire for days.

J:You seem not to understand the concept of proportional punishment for the finally impetanent, even though you said earlier (I believe) that you agree there will be proportional punishment for the wicked.

This is a very simple principle. The wicked receive punishment in proportion to their sin. What I don't understand is your response. I'm asking you why you think God is able to set people on fire to burn them alive for days to punish them. Why would you think God is like this? I've been trying for a long time to understand this, but you don't address the question. You talk about what you think the Scriptures or Ellen White mean, but this isn't what I'm asking. Your answer here is that "I seem not to understand the concept of proportional punishment." How can this possibly have anything to do with my question? I'm asking you why you think God is capable of setting people on fire to them and you respond that you don't think I understand proportional punishment? What is there in my question to you have has any such implication?

What you're proposing is a pretty radical thing, given the character of Jesus Christ. If a person just knew of Jesus Christ and nothing else, and someone explained the judgment to them, and explained that those who rejected Christ would be tortured for days, wouldn't a reasonable question be, "Why do you think God is capable of doing such a thing? How is this like the Heavenly Father that Jesus Christ spoke of"? Would you respond to the person "Ah, you must not understand proportional punishment!" As if the one way a person could be proportionately punished is by setting them on fire!

Quote:

That is a principle laid down in Scripture-- that the wicked will suffer according to what they have done in the body. Ellen White shows that this "portion that the wicked MUST suffer" is "decided" by Christ in union with the righteous during the 1000 years at which time they will closely examine the lives of all the wicked. This also has the support of the Scriptures. The decision is not arbitrary but according to "strict justice," i.e., the laws of God. It is not left up to someone's feelings or to desires for revenge. God is not out for "revenge." Ellen White speaks of the punishment being "meted out to the wicked according to their deeds." This does not describe anything arbitrary. We can trust God not to do anything arbitrary in the punishment of the wicked any more than He rewards the righteous arbitarily. In the final analysis, the whole universe will have no doubt that God is fair and just in His dealing with sin and Satan.

It seems to me that you are judging God by human standards, but this is a mistake that many people make. Both the Bible and Ellen White speak to this very issue, and there are quotes on this topic that I've given before on this thread, so I won't give them here again. If you don't know what those are, ask me, and I'll be glad to post them again. God is able to do infinite justice in a way that it would be wrong for people to do. He is the lawgiver, Judge of the entire universe, and He created everything that exists. He certainly has unlimited control over the works of His hands, to do as He pleases, and no man has a right to ask His maker, "Why are you doing this?" (See Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, page 50-53.) God wants the universe to watch what He does, but God is not asking criminals to tell Him what He ought to do.

I believe that God's punishing the wicked according to their sins is perfectly right for God to do. In fact, the concept of God's justice is that He would not be "moral"-- that is, in harmony with God's own standards of justice-- if He didn't punish the wicked proportionally for their sins. Far from being immoral for God to punish the wicked by making them suffer proportionally, it is actually an essential aspect of God's "morality." It is also an essential aspect of man's morality. Who think that it would right for a court to punish a shop-lifter, for instance, the same as it would punish a murderer? I doubt very much if anyone would think that's moral. Well, Satan and his angels are mass murderers if there ever were any.

It's important to keep in mind that Ellen White says that some will be destroyed as in a moment. So, you are right that God will allow those who deserve it, to pass out of existence without any physical pain at all. He is a just and loving God who is not out to see that anyone suffers any more than their sins merit.

If you think that the second death is not "punishment," or "recompense," or "payment," and that God should simply allow Satan and the rest of the wicked to merely fall asleep in death, you do not understand the character and dealings of God. I didn't make this up--- they are the words of Ellen White. See ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

Let me know if you need any more explanation on this question. I'll be happy to try harder and, if necessary, to state things more clearly and in greater detail. :-)

Yes, I need more explanation. I need some explanation which addresses the question.

I'm not asking why you believe what you believe, but why you think it's possible for God to do the things you think He will do, which is to set people on fire to torture them for days. Try to divorce yourself from the fact that this is a theological discussion, and just think in terms of discussing the character of some person.

Let's say your father or son or brother. Let's say I said that your father or son or brother believed in setting people on fire as a form of punishment, that this is how he favors punishing criminals, basing this in some article of his that I read. Say you respond, "No, that's not possible! I know my father (or son or brother), and he's not like that! He would never do that! You must have misunderstood what he wrote!"

You could reject what was being said of your father/son/brother without reading what was written, because you know him, you know his character.

What I'm asking is why you don't reject that idea that God will torture people because of knowing Him and knowing His character. Why don't you reject this idea on this basis, as you would for your father/son/brother? (assuming you would do so).

I hope this helps explain what I'm trying to get at.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult question to understand. If you've finally understood it, perhaps you could give me a suggestion on how I can better ask it. If you still don't get it, I'll try again. I appreciate your patience regarding this. You do appear to be trying to answer my question; it just seems you don't understand what I'm asking. Perhaps someone else reading this might be able to help (who can understand what I'm asking, and why you're not answering what I'm trying to ask).

[Robert]

Not all read the Bible and Ellen White as you did or do.

Keep in mind what the Pharisees did to Christ. Sure, outwardly thy looked all holy, but inside they were full of dead man's bones.....All they did, outwardly, was to be seen of men. What does that mean?

If you are afraid of God...if you are depending on your works to save you, then everything you do will be polluted with self. Remember that it takes agape to do anything right. That's why Paul states, "agape is the fulfillment of the law". Without agape your motive will always be bent-back-to-self. An example of this is found in Matthew 7:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Didn't these folks do good things? Yes, outwardly, but their motives where always bent-to-self. That's what it means to "work iniquity"!

You see if you believe God only accepts those who keep the commandments and those who don't will suffer his wrath (some burning for many days) it will impossible to serve God with the right motive. All you do will be out of fear or hope of reward. Such a religions, says EGW, is worthless.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: There is no possible way that Ellen White could answer the question I'm asking you, which is why you think God would be capable of the things you think He will do, most specifically setting people on fire to cause them to "suffer torture" for many days.

This is a personal question. It has to do with your values, your conception of God's character. Only you can answer this.

....I'm asking specifically about the idea that God will set people on fire to suffer excruciating pain while being burned alive, something Ellen White describes as being made to "suffer torture." I'm asking specifically about this. Not about destroying the wicked in general, nor even destroying the wicked by fire (if this were to happen in a moment, as fire normally works, that would be a different question; it would certainly be more merciful than the idea that God has people burning literally on fire for days like a torch).

....This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm asking. I'm asking about your concept of God's character, your sense of morality, why these personal values you hold allow you to believe that God will set people on fire for days.

J:You seem not to understand the concept of proportional punishment for the finally impetanent, even though you said earlier (I believe) that you agree there will be proportional punishment for the wicked.

This is a very simple principle. The wicked receive punishment in proportion to their sin. What I don't understand is your response. I'm asking you why you think God is able to set people on fire to burn them alive for days to punish them. Why would you think God is like this? I've been trying for a long time to understand this, but you don't address the question. You talk about what you think the Scriptures or Ellen White mean, but this isn't what I'm asking. Your answer here is that "I seem not to understand the concept of proportional punishment." How can this possibly have anything to do with my question? I'm asking you why you think God is capable of setting people on fire to them and you respond that you don't think I understand proportional punishment? What is there in my question to you have has any such implication?

What you're proposing is a pretty radical thing, given the character of Jesus Christ. If a person just knew of Jesus Christ and nothing else, and someone explained the judgment to them, and explained that those who rejected Christ would be tortured for days, wouldn't a reasonable question be, "Why do you think God is capable of doing such a thing? How is this like the Heavenly Father that Jesus Christ spoke of"? Would you respond to the person "Ah, you must not understand proportional punishment!" As if the one way a person could be proportionately punished is by setting them on fire!

Quote:

That is a principle laid down in Scripture-- that the wicked will suffer according to what they have done in the body. Ellen White shows that this "portion that the wicked MUST suffer" is "decided" by Christ in union with the righteous during the 1000 years at which time they will closely examine the lives of all the wicked. This also has the support of the Scriptures. The decision is not arbitrary but according to "strict justice," i.e., the laws of God. It is not left up to someone's feelings or to desires for revenge. God is not out for "revenge." Ellen White speaks of the punishment being "meted out to the wicked according to their deeds." This does not describe anything arbitrary. We can trust God not to do anything arbitrary in the punishment of the wicked any more than He rewards the righteous arbitarily. In the final analysis, the whole universe will have no doubt that God is fair and just in His dealing with sin and Satan.

It seems to me that you are judging God by human standards, but this is a mistake that many people make. Both the Bible and Ellen White speak to this very issue, and there are quotes on this topic that I've given before on this thread, so I won't give them here again. If you don't know what those are, ask me, and I'll be glad to post them again. God is able to do infinite justice in a way that it would be wrong for people to do. He is the lawgiver, Judge of the entire universe, and He created everything that exists. He certainly has unlimited control over the works of His hands, to do as He pleases, and no man has a right to ask His maker, "Why are you doing this?" (See Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, page 50-53.) God wants the universe to watch what He does, but God is not asking criminals to tell Him what He ought to do.

I believe that God's punishing the wicked according to their sins is perfectly right for God to do. In fact, the concept of God's justice is that He would not be "moral"-- that is, in harmony with God's own standards of justice-- if He didn't punish the wicked proportionally for their sins. Far from being immoral for God to punish the wicked by making them suffer proportionally, it is actually an essential aspect of God's "morality." It is also an essential aspect of man's morality. Who think that it would right for a court to punish a shop-lifter, for instance, the same as it would punish a murderer? I doubt very much if anyone would think that's moral. Well, Satan and his angels are mass murderers if there ever were any.

It's important to keep in mind that Ellen White says that some will be destroyed as in a moment. So, you are right that God will allow those who deserve it, to pass out of existence without any physical pain at all. He is a just and loving God who is not out to see that anyone suffers any more than their sins merit.

If you think that the second death is not "punishment," or "recompense," or "payment," and that God should simply allow Satan and the rest of the wicked to merely fall asleep in death, you do not understand the character and dealings of God. I didn't make this up--- they are the words of Ellen White. See ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

Let me know if you need any more explanation on this question. I'll be happy to try harder and, if necessary, to state things more clearly and in greater detail. :-)

Yes, I need more explanation. I need some explanation which addresses the question.

I'm not asking why you believe what you believe, but why you think it's possible for God to do the things you think He will do, which is to set people on fire to torture them for days. Try to divorce yourself from the fact that this is a theological discussion, and just think in terms of discussing the character of some person.

Let's say your father or son or brother. Let's say I said that your father or son or brother believed in setting people on fire as a form of punishment, that this is how he favors punishing criminals, basing this in some article of his that I read. Say you respond, "No, that's not possible! I know my father (or son or brother), and he's not like that! He would never do that! You must have misunderstood what he wrote!"

You could reject what was being said of your father/son/brother without reading what was written, because you know him, you know his character.

What I'm asking is why you don't reject that idea that God will torture people because of knowing Him and knowing His character. Why don't you reject this idea on this basis, as you would for your father/son/brother? (assuming you would do so).

I hope this helps explain what I'm trying to get at.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult question to understand. If you've finally understood it, perhaps you could give me a suggestion on how I can better ask it. If you still don't get it, I'll try again. I appreciate your patience regarding this. You do appear to be trying to answer my question; it just seems you don't understand what I'm asking. Perhaps someone else reading this might be able to help (who can understand what I'm asking, and why you're not answering what I'm trying to ask).

Very interesting way to put it, pnatt.

sky

[Robert]

I'm trying to give you hope by showing you what God can do, and what He does do, in people's lives.

Yes, it's good to grow, but as long as life shall last you are never beyond returning to old sins....As long as you have indwelling iniquity you can fall....Look at King David. So while true growth (experiencing agape) is good news, our hope must be based in what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago....

[teresaq]

jumping in here, i just came across this one and thought it was pointed the way it was worded.

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}

[pnattmbtc]

If I am taking care of a child and I allow the child to be killed by refusing to do what I could have done to save it, that is the same as destroying the child. If I have a big dog that wants to kill someone and I allow it to happen by opening the door of its pen knowing it will kill, am I not fully responsible for the victim's death?

[Robert]

The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom.

Let's look at the last 6 commandments:

Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery , Thou shalt not kill , Thou shalt not steal , Thou shalt not bear false witness , Thou shalt not covet ; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [agape] is the fulfilling of the law.

In other words it takes agape to keep the law.

Does adultery apply to God? No! Why? He is Spirit...neither male nor female. So adultery does not apply.

Does "thou shall not kill" apply to God? Well, here's where we have controversy. I say yes....Agape does not do evil. How can you love your enemies and murder him or her at the same time?

Does "Thou shalt not bear false witness" apply to God? Yes, God cannot lie....

Does "thou shall not covet" apply to God? To covet is to lust....While God is the creator of all He did so for the benefit of His universe. Adam was given dominion of this world before the fall. It was a gift from God.

Remember God is selfless....He is not preoccupied with Himself. There's no bent-to-self in God's love. Yes, He is God...He deserves our worship because He is our source of life and agape.

Jesus, who is God, is servant of all....He lives to serve. Hence He is not self-concerned...He is not self-indulgent...He is not selfish....So God does not covet or lust....

The only commandment that doesn't apply to God is adultery because it is physically impossible to commit that sin given He is Spirit.

[pnattmbtc]

Will God personnally pronounce the death sentence against each wicked individual? See Ellen White's description in GC 665-666. It is Jesus who personally "decides the portion that the wicked MUST suffer" and it is Jesus who personally "pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and EXECUTES JUSTICE upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people."

Why do you resist these statements and why do you believe that if we take these statements literally, they make God like the devil?

How is it you read statements like this and conclude that, if taken literally, they must mean that God will set people on fire and torture them? Surely it's possible to punish people without setting them on fire, isn't it? Likewise, isn't it possible to execute justice without setting people on fire?

[pnattmbtc]

What do you think Ellen White means when she says God breaths fire on them? It shows that the fire comes out of God.

Literally? Like a fire-breathing dragon?

[Guest]

How is it you read statements like this and conclude that, if taken literally, they must mean that God will set people on fire and torture them? Surely it's possible to punish people without setting them on fire, isn't it? Likewise, isn't it possible to execute justice without setting people on fire?

I hear you stamping your foot and saying: But God, this is not the way I want you to do it. Isn't there some other way? Why do you have to use fire?

If He were going to use other means, then He wouldn't have said He was going to use fire. I don't guess you have to understand it, but you will have to deal with it when the time comes. Whether you're lost or saved.

[pnattmbtc]

The only commandment that doesn't apply to God is adultery because it is physically impossible to commit that sin given He is Spirit.

This applies to God as well, in a spiritual sense, as evidenced repeatedly in Scripture in terms of "the bride" and "the woman." That is, God presents Himself as loving and faithful husband, who remains faith to His bride, in spite of her unfaithfulness, as Hosea, for one, poignantly brings out.

[Robert]

If I am taking care of a child and I allow the child to be killed by refusing to do what I could have done to save it, that is the same as destroying the child.

We are all God's children, right John? Yet some of us rebel against His agape love. How does God react, in love, to His children who refuse Him?

First you have to be accountable....So your analogy of a child will not fit here. You see God is all about choice. Why? Agape cannot force or coerce. Of corse your theology doesn't buy into this....

Therefore if you (generically speaking - not you personally) insist on doing things your way God will not stop you....Yes, He will plead with you, but He won't lock you in your room like one would do a child. He allows, in love, you to make your own choices.....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The only commandment that doesn't apply to God is adultery because it is physically impossible to commit that sin given He is Spirit.

This applies to God as well, in a spiritual sense, as evidenced repeatedly in Scripture in terms of "the bride" and "the woman." That is, God presents Himself as loving and faithful husband, who remains faith to His bride, in spite of her unfaithfulness, as Hosea, for one, poignantly brings out.

Okay...you got me....Good point....Then the last six commandments apply to God also....Outside this agape is sin....Burning folks to death, over many days, is sin....If it's wrong for me it's wrong for God....

[pnattmbtc]

p:How is it you read statements like this and conclude that, if taken literally, they must mean that God will set people on fire and torture them? Surely it's possible to punish people without setting them on fire, isn't it? Likewise, isn't it possible to execute justice without setting people on fire?

R:I hear you stamping your foot and saying: But God, this is not the way I want you to do it. Isn't there some other way? Why do you have to use fire?

If He were going to use other means, then He wouldn't have said He was going to use fire. I don't guess you have to understand it, but you will have to deal with it when the time comes. Whether you're lost or saved.

Only if God were like this, capable of acting in this way.

Have you considered Jesus Christ? He who said if someone strikes you on the face, turn the other cheek? How did He treat His enemies? How did He respond when the disciples suggested calling fire from heaven?

Jesus Christ said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." The SOP tells us, "All that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son."

Where in Jesus Christ do we see One who would set someone on fire who disagreed with Him? Is this the message of Christ? Burn your enemies?

[Guest]

The SOP also says that when He returns, He will return as judge and king, to administer justice to every man according as his work shall be. A totally different role. The chance for salvation will be over.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[Robert]

The SOP tells us, "All that man needs to know of God, or can know of God, was revealed in the life and character of His Son."

Not to put you on the spot, but what's the reference?

Rob