"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

Not from Ellen White it couldn't. She speaks very plainly, not only about where the destruction comes from, but about how it ends.

when you witness to non-sdas you pull out ellen white? how far do you get?

[teresaq]

.We must arrive at truth for ourselves....If we are honestly wrong God still accepts us....but He will never accept us through another's theology.

wow!! thats what ive said for decades!

[pnattmbtc]

Reposting this for John317:

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Remember that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. How do we know when this is or is not the case? (i.e., when God is taking direct action, as opposed to removing His protection).

For example, we're told that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites. What did God actually do here? Did He take direct action, or remove His protection? How do we know?

J:The serpents were an example of destructive power resulting from God's permissive will. He withdrew his protective care from His people.

p:I asked how we know this. Why do you conclude this is an example of God's permissive will as opposed to active? The language is active.

[Robert]

Look in Jack Sequeira's books, Robert.

Dude...bubba, or whatever....Stop with the Jack Sequeira nonsense. I'm warning you now, stop it...it's unacceptable. You are trying to pit me against Jack...this is the devil's work. I agree with jack on 95% of his stuff....I also know he against EGW abusers such as yourself....You cramp her down our throats....He would warn you of such disgusting actions if he were here....

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years? Please give the reference.

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teresaq(sda): with all due respect, can you give one pioneer who believed in the "trinity" doctrine? or that the Holy Spirit literally inhabits a person? please give the reference.

Sure, I can. But I'm going to do you a favor and let you study the subject more; then you can rethink your question and ask it or another question if you like.

You must not know the history of the doctrine or of the church too well if you would ask something like that.

By the way, do you believe in the Trinity as the doctrine is taught in the SDA church?

Remember that it isn't necessary to use the label "Trinity" in order to believe and teach the essential points of the doctrine. It is similar to the doctrine of the Incarnation that way. Neither words are found in Scripture, but that is not important. What's important is whether the Bible supports the essential beliefs. Does it?

[teresaq]

Quote:

John317: Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years? Please give the reference.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): with all due respect, can you give one pioneer who believed in the "trinity" doctrine? or that the Holy Spirit literally inhabits a person? please give the reference.

Sure, I can.

please do, to both. :)

[pnattmbtc]

Dude...bubba, or whatever....Stop with the Jack Sequeira nonsense. I'm warning you now, stop it...it's unacceptable. You are trying to pit me against Jack...this is the devil's work. I agree with jack on 95% of his stuff....I also know he against EGW abusers such as yourself....You cramp her down our throats....He would warn you of such disgusting actions if he were here....

Take it easy Robert!

You make real nice arguments from Scripture. Just stick to those. Bad mouthing Ellen White doesn't help anything.

Most people here accept Ellen White's writings, so she is being used. Being able to argue from Scripture is a great thing, as this is a necessary skill for speaking with non-SDAs. John317 and others know your views regarding Ellen White. I'm sure John317 would be happy to discuss things with you just from the basis of Scripture, providing you don't bad mouth Ellen White. If you speak ill of her, of course he'll respond. Anyone would, just like you would if he spoke ill of Jack.

Can't you leave personalities aside and just concentrate on presenting the arguments you believe to be true?

[John317]

Quote:

Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years?

If you mean by "destroy the wicked by fire" torturing them for days by setting them on fire, Ellen White is one. Teresa I think has quoted quite a few others.

Then explain GC 671-673, please. Also EW in those parts where she describes the destruction of the wicked.

Are you saying that virtually the entire SDA church has believed since the 1860s what Ellen White taught plainly against?

[Guest]

His education has gone to his head

[pnattmbtc]

Reposting for John317.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: There is no possible way that Ellen White could answer the question I'm asking you, which is why you think God would be capable of the things you think He will do, most specifically setting people on fire to cause them to "suffer torture" for many days.

This is a personal question. It has to do with your values, your conception of God's character. Only you can answer this.

John317:You ask why I believe that God is capable of destroying the wicked in fire at the end of the 1000 years.

I'm asking specifically about the idea that God will set people on fire to suffer excruciating pain while being burned alive, something Ellen White describes as being made to "suffer torture." I'm asking specifically about this. Not about destroying the wicked in general, nor even destroying the wicked by fire (if this were to happen in a moment, as fire normally works, that would be a different question; it would certainly be more merciful than the idea that God has people burning literally on fire for days like a torch).

Quote:

J:

I believe it for the same reason that I believe God is capable of creating the world by His Word and that this same Word was capable of becoming a man and is still a man to this day. For many people, I admit, none of this sounds possible. In fact, for many it sounds absolutely ridiculous. They laugh at the concept of a God who is capable of creating the world in 6 days and of then coming here in the form of one of his own creatures.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm asking. I'm asking about your concept of God's character, your sense of morality, why these personal values you hold allow you to believe that God will set people on fire for days.

Quote:

J:

They stand in utter amazement that anyone could possibly be serious about this belief. They ask, "Why do you feel that God is capable of doing those things?" When I tell them that I will show them from the Bible, they sometimes reply that they are not interested in what "that book" says; they just want to know why I personally believe God is capable of doing those things and of being the way I describe Him.

This is just a question of might. I'm asking about character.

I appreciate that you took the time to write a lengthy post, but you didn't answer my question. It's hard for me to believe I'm not being clear.

I'm not asking you what you think the Bible or the SOP teaches. You cannot answer my question by citing texts.

Again, this is a personal question, which has to do with your view of morality, your view of God's character. I'm asking you why you think it's moral to set people on fire to burn for days. I'm asking you why you think God would be capable of doing this.

Setting people on fire, torturing people, is something not ordinarily considered acceptable behavior. No earthly government, no matter how corrupt, allows for punishing criminals in such a manner. A government might torture someone in order to gain information, such as to prevent a terrorist attack or some other perceived threat against itself, but not as a way of punishing criminals.

I can't think of a more inhumane manner of punishment than what you believe. Can you? Why not do something like we do in this country. Put people in prison to set out a sentence for some amount of time which corresponds to their crime. Why burn people?

It doesn't seem like you're thinking about what really happens, according to your thinking. You're suggesting that God sets people on fire, to burn like a torch, right? Now fire would kill a person in a few seconds. The only way they could continue to burn would be for God to supernaturally prevent them from dying, so they continue to be tortured, because, clearly, if they die, the torture ceases.

Also fire would quickly destroy the nerve endings. So God would have to supernaturally act to prevent the nerve endings from being destroyed.

So we have a person set on fire, burning like a Molotov cocktail, with God acting supernaturally to prevent the person from dying, or from the nerve endings from being damaged, so this fire has no purpose other than to cause the person being burned to suffer excruciating pain.

So we have God inflicting the worst torture in the history of man to those who refuse to obey Him. And supposedly this is "justice."

And all the while, while asserting this, you deny that God uses compelling power to coerce the will. This could only be true of a person without rudimentary reason powers.

1.God tells me to obey Him.

2.If I don't, He will set me on fire to burn for days.

3.I better obey Him if I don't wish to be tortured for days.

This isn't hard to follow, is it? I think most people are capable of reasoning like this. I think any reasonable person would see that threatening to torture someone by setting them on fire for days is forcing the will.

But this is a side note to my original question, although I have been asking this too, so might as well include it.

So I'm asking two things:

1.Why do you think God's character is such that He is capable of torturing people for days if they don't obey Him?

2.Why do you think God's threatening to set people on fire to burn for days if they don't do what He says is not forcing the will?

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Look in Jack Sequeira's books, Robert.

Quote:

ROBERT: Dude...bubba, or whatever....Stop with the Jack Sequeira nonsense. I'm warning you now, stop it...it's unacceptable. You are trying to pit me against Jack...this is the devil's work. I agree with jack on 95% of his stuff....I also know he against EGW abusers such as yourself....You cramp her down our throats....He would warn you of such disgusting actions if he were here....

As moderator:

Delete your post, and after you have deleted it, I will delete this one.

[pnattmbtc]

Then explain GC 671-673, please. Also EW in those parts where she describes the destruction of the wicked.

[Guest]

1.Why do you think God's character is such that He is capable of torturing people for days if they don't obey Him?

2.Why do you think God's threatening to set people on fire to burn for days if they don't do what He says is not forcing the will?

Two reasons:

1.Because He said so.

2.Because by not obeying, you align yourself with Satan, and sin. Satan and sin must be destroyed in the end, and God has promised that He will do it. By aligning yourself with Satan, you bring the destruction on yourself. No one will be able to blame God.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: .We must arrive at truth for ourselves....If we are honestly wrong God still accepts us....but He will never accept us through another's theology.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): wow!! thats what ive said for decades!

Sure, this is true. But if we hear truth and the Holy Spirit convicts of it, but we still reject it, that is different. For instance, there were many Jews who were convicted by the Spirit that Jesus was the Messiah, and some even thought for a few seconds that Jeuss Christ was God-like, yet they rejected it out of jealousy and hatred. They will be held responsible for rejecting truth.

Only the Holy Spirit knows when this happens, though, so we can't judge.

[John317]

Moderator:

Robert, if you don't delete your posts that are a violation of the rules, you will be banned from the theology threads. Please calm down and delete them and I won't say any more about them.

[Robert]

Richard Holbrook is antagonist. He is trying to get me thrown off....that's doing the devil's work....He tempts then he writes me emails saying "see you later"....He is trying to get me mad and then thrown off CA.

Well, he needs to be careful because none of us are above giving over to flesh....And that could lead to something he might not want....Guns won't help him either....He needs to watch his mouth.

If his idea is to tempt believers to sin, like I did, then one day he will meet something bad. Evil brings evil...

[Guest]

I didn't say anything to you until after you lost your self control, and started calling me names. The software that censors wouldn't even let you say what you tried to in PM's. All it said was You [censored] [censored] [censored] you!

Over and over. So don't try and blame your lack of self control on me.

[Robert]

I didn't say anything to you until after you lost your self control, and started calling me names. The software that censors wouldn't even let you say what you tried to in PM's. All it said was You [censored] [censored] [censored] you!

Over and over. So don't try and blame your lack of self control on me.

You seem to have no self-control either in how you run your mouth off. Be careful, or you might mess with someone you shouldn't....

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Then explain GC 671-673, please. Also EW in those parts where she describes the destruction of the wicked.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: The simple explanation is that GC 671-673 is describing a vision which Ellen White was shown, and DA 764 is explaining how she understood the vision.

Simple explanation is it?

I don't consider DA 764 as a contradiction of the language used in GC 673. I think you might but that is because you have a misunderstanding of Ellen White's use of the word "arbitrary," and you are not considering everything Ellen White has said on the subject of the destruction of the wicked. For instance, look carefully at what she says on Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, pages 50, 51. She says there that God has a right to do what He pleases with the creatures he's made and that people have no right to ask God, "Why are you doing this?" Please read those two pages.

God and Christ do not act arbitrarily in the judgment or in the execution of the judgment. You are using the word wrongly. God is the Judge of the whole universe and He is the one who created all laws. They didn't exist before Him and they are not above Him. He doesn't look at laws in order to make sure He is abiding by them. He is judging by righteous laws, which are not arbitrary at all. Christ decides the portion that the wicked MUST suffer according to what they have done. That is not arbitrary but strict justice. "Arbitary" would be if He allowed the wicked to decide how they will be punished or how they will die.

Questions, then:

1) Do you think that if I go to the Ellen White Estate and do research or ask James Nix to see if this is true, I would be able to verify your "simple explanation"?

2) What evidence do you have that this is true?

3) Why didn't Ellen White write the explanation in GC 671-673?

4) Can you show a direct connection between DA 764 and GC 671-673?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Dude...bubba, or whatever....Stop with the Jack Sequeira nonsense. I'm warning you now, stop it...it's unacceptable. You are trying to pit me against Jack...this is the devil's work. I agree with jack on 95% of his stuff....I also know he against EGW abusers such as yourself....You cramp her down our throats....He would warn you of such disgusting actions if he were here....

Take it easy Robert!

You make real nice arguments from Scripture. Just stick to those. Bad mouthing Ellen White doesn't help anything.

Most people here accept Ellen White's writings, so she is being used. Being able to argue from Scripture is a great thing, as this is a necessary skill for speaking with non-SDAs. John317 and others know your views regarding Ellen White. I'm sure John317 would be happy to discuss things with you just from the basis of Scripture, providing you don't bad mouth Ellen White. If you speak ill of her, of course he'll respond. Anyone would, just like you would if he spoke ill of Jack.

Can't you leave personalities aside and just concentrate on presenting the arguments you believe to be true?

I second that. And I too appreciate Robert's arguing strictly from Scripture. It is very inspiring. Keep it up Robert. The devil would just love it for you to blow your lid off. Please don't let him. The Lord can use you here mightily as I believe he is also using pnatt and teresa to vindicate His character.

I believe John will come around some day.

sky

[Robert]

The devil would just love it for you to blow your lid off.

Too late....Richard needs to back off....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I didn't say anything to you until after you lost your self control, and started calling me names. The software that censors wouldn't even let you say what you tried to in PM's. All it said was You [censored] [censored] [censored] you!

Over and over. So don't try and blame your lack of self control on me.

You seem to have no self-control either in how you run your mouth off. Be careful, or you might mess with someone you shouldn't....

I haven't lost my cool, and called you anything. Not even when you were cussing me in the PMs.

Should I take your threats seriously?

[John317]

TAke a break, Robert. If you can't control yourself, your posts will be deleted, and if that doesn't stop the personal stuff, this thread will be closed to you. If I have to, I will close it down for everyone for a while.

Read the rules.

[Robert]

If Richard backs down I will....

[Guest]

Back down from what? I didn't call you a punk. You called me one.