"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Jack:

God’s love (agape) is changeless. It is this fact that prompted Him to declare to the unfaithful Jews, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love” [Jeremiah 31:3]. According to Paul’s description of God’s love, “agape never fails” [1 Corinthians 13:8]. This was clearly demonstrated on the cross when “having loved His own which were in the world, he loved (agapao) them unto the end” [John 13:1]. When we Christians realize God’s unchanging love for us and are “rooted and grounded in agape” [Ephesians 3:17], we will be able to say with the great apostle Paul: “Who shall separate us from the love [agape] of Christ? ... For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, not things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love [agape] of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” [Romans 8:35-39].

Human love, at its very best (heavenly eros) is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. As we saw in our last study, we are all shaped in “iniquity” (bent to self). Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23].

But God’s love (agape) is the very opposite. It is self-giving. It was because of this that Christ did not cling to His equality with the Father, but emptied Himself and became God’s slave, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [Philippians 2:6-8]. All His earthly life, Christ demonstrated God’s agape [John 17:4, first part.] This is “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which the disciples beheld [John 1:14]. He lived for the benefit of others; He actually became poor for our sakes, that we “through His poverty might be rich” [2 Corinthians 8:9].

[skyblue888]

John you wrote, "The law, then, does not dictate or instruct them as it does creatures."

But John, in all due respect, you are missing the point here. To the children of God the law is in their heart just as it is in the heart of God. They do by nature (divine nature) what the law requires. They no longer have to be reminded of the letter of the law though they are fulfilling the letter of the law because the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto them. Thats why the Holy Spirit says that the law, the letter of the law, is for those who transgress it, not for those who have that law written upon the fleshly tablets of their hearts.

sky

[skyblue888]

Jack:

God’s love (agape) is changeless. It is this fact that prompted Him to declare to the unfaithful Jews, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love” [Jeremiah 31:3]. According to Paul’s description of God’s love, “agape never fails” [1 Corinthians 13:8]. This was clearly demonstrated on the cross when “having loved His own which were in the world, he loved (agapao) them unto the end” [John 13:1]. When we Christians realize God’s unchanging love for us and are “rooted and grounded in agape” [Ephesians 3:17], we will be able to say with the great apostle Paul: “Who shall separate us from the love [agape] of Christ? ... For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, not things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love [agape] of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” [Romans 8:35-39].

Human love, at its very best (heavenly eros) is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. As we saw in our last study, we are all shaped in “iniquity” (bent to self). Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23].

But God’s love (agape) is the very opposite. It is self-giving. It was because of this that Christ did not cling to His equality with the Father, but emptied Himself and became God’s slave, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [Philippians 2:6-8]. All His earthly life, Christ demonstrated God’s agape [John 17:4, first part.] This is “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which the disciples beheld [John 1:14]. He lived for the benefit of others; He actually became poor for our sakes, that we “through His poverty might be rich” [2 Corinthians 8:9].

I have to say that this is an Excellent post! I will only add that though we are sinful, through Christ we may be imbued with the same love for "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us." Rom.5:5.

And I will also add that because we are sinful channels the works that the Holy Spirit does in and through us must pass through the fire of Christ's merits and righteousness in order to be accepted of the Father.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, John and exactly who is causing Satan to suffer? Who finally exterminates him?And if sin kills the sinner then what's the point of the second resurrection? What's left for God to prove? They were already dead.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Tradition and misinterpretation has obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. G.C.492.

Quote:

sky:The message contained in this last statement should be enough to get us to re-think or re-assess our thinking as to the way we have read and interpreted the Old Testament.

Also this one should as well:

Quote:

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)

[pnattmbtc]

JOHN3:17: Ellen White wrote in PP 429 that this event occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protective care in order to teach the people a lesson about obedience.

pnattmbtc] This is irrelevant, unless your response is the way you know that the Bible is speaking of God's permissive will is because of Ellen White said so. Is this your point?

J:Scholars outside the Adventist church believe as do Seventh-day Adventists that God removed his protective care from the people as a result of their rebellion, thus allowing the serpents which were populous in that area to infest the Israelite camps. This conclusion is well supported by such passages as Exodus 23: 20-31; Deut. 7; and Deut. 28; which are all descriptive of the blessing that was to come on the Israelite when they are obedient and faithful to God but which also describe the consequences of disobedience to Him. We know that God performed miracles in order to protect them and bless them in many ways. For instance, God kept them healthy and even prevents their shoes from wearing out. The remarkable thing is that except for the story of the serpents in Number 21, we have no mention of the people being bitten by snakes, although it seems that the deaths of many should have been expected, given the large number of Israelites, as well as the large number of serpents, in the desert.

We also have confirmation of this conclusion in the writings of Ellen G. White. I wouldn't ever say Ellen White's comments on the Bible are irrelevant.

[pnattmbtc]

skyblue888: .... we are, unwittingly, perpetuating Satan's lie which has been handed down to us through tradition and misintepretation.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

[teresaq]

In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

[teresaq]

Why would God be just like Satan if He directly executes judgment?

who do you think those who torture are like? whose character are they representing? God or satan?

there are many who just cant understand even limited torture to be ok, even if it is supposedly for "punishment".

going on my own personal journey, there was a time when i wanted people to "pay". didnt matter if i intended to do it myself or thought God would do it for me. they needed to be "punished".

why isnt it possible for God to get the job done without actively doing it Himself? why is it incomprehensible that sin is so bad, so evil, that it would destroy itself as it did in the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad and again in the reign of terror in france? just imagine when there is no longer any restraint from God worldwide?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

whereas God is loving if He allows them to murder one another in a mass slaughter. It would be murder unless God commands them to kill, but I doubt you would say God commands them to take each other's lives.

You're not grasping the important points here, IMO. Sky and I may differ a bit as to some of the details in the final destruction of the wicked, but agree completely in regards to the principles involved. The principles involved are:

1.God does not use an arbitrary act of power to destroy the wicked (arbitrary as per Webster's primary definition; i.e., and act of power originating from Himself, not related to sin in any direct way).

2.God does not take direct action to torture the wicked by setting them on fire to burn for days, a hideous idea.

3.The wicked separate themselves from God, cutting themselves off from Him, and suffer the consequences. This is straight from DA 764:

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

since it is going on right now all over and throughout history and we call it "free will", im not sure where the difficulty lies...

how many wars are going on now? rapes? murder? on and on? so what is the difference between allowing freewill now and allowing freewill then?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

Not from Ellen White it couldn't. She speaks very plainly, not only about where the destruction comes from, but about how it ends.

[pnattmbtc]

In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

Or predestination.

[Robert]

Not from Ellen White it couldn't. She speaks very plainly,...

What book of the Bible can I find EGW? Hmmm? Can't find the book of Ellen.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

Quote:

teresaq(sda): the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

The Bible is very clear on the subject of the non-immortality of the soul and of eternal torment. It is also very clear on subjects such as the Second Coming but the clarity of the Bible does not keep people from believing falsehoods. It is the same with the false belief that God never uses force, has never actively destroyed anyone or that He will not destroy the wicked in fire at the end of time.

It is believed not because the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy teaches it but simply because some want to believe it. That is the same with the doctrine of eternal torment, Sunday worship, Mariology, and a good number of other false teachings. But the Bible cannot be blamed. It does not teach two contradictory views. We don't help teach the truth-- or do the word of God a service-- by claiming that the Bible is not clear. The real question is, do people want to accept what the Bible teaches or do they want to hold on to their own private opinions?

God has made it so that people can find reasons to believe what they want to believe. The truth is plain but if people want to reject it, God doesn't force them to accept the truth. That is one area where God won't use compelling force.

The is exactly what Ellen White believed and taught on this subject. For instance, study or restudy her excellent chapter, "The Scriptures a Safeguard," in The Great Controversy.

[Robert]

That is one area where God won't use compelling force.

Why not? If He uses force elsewhere why not here? So that's inconsistent....

[teresaq]

Quote:

John317: In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

Quote:

teresaq(sda): the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

The Bible is very clear on the subject of the non-immortality of the soul and of eternal torment.

it is only "clear" because those who came before us kept digging deeper. it is "clear" to us because we were taught this from "babyhood", so to speak.

but since i know many who were not raised with these beliefs it is not clear. the bible is contradictory regarding the state of the dead. eternal torment especially is hard to refute without bringing in a lot of scriptures and serious study. even then it can be hard to accept "new evidence" and takes many a while to make that shift from one way of thinking to another. for them it seems like heresy and they are afraid to believe for quite a while.

others flat out reject our understanding of the state of the dead and eternal torment believing themselves correct.

but the point is that one has to study the scriptures, not just stick with a few "proof texts" to find the truth about the state of the dead, eternal torment, and lets not forget the investigative part of our sanctuary doctrine.

now how easy is that one? how plain and clear?

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): since it is going on right now all over and throughout history and we call it "free will", im not sure where the difficulty lies...

how many wars are going on now? rapes? murder? on and on? so what is the difference between allowing freewill now and allowing freewill then?

So you agree with sky that the wicked will die by killing each other?

No one is saying that God won't allow them to attack each other. They certainly will. They will attempt to kill each other as well as Satan. The point is, though, that the wicked don't die the second death by means of their own weapons or by killing one another. That isn't how it will happen if you accept the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

Go back and read EW 50-53 and 290, 291 and GC 660, 661. Anyone who can't understand what those words means is either not wanting to understand them or else can't read plain English. They do exactly what Ellen White said some do who try to make the plainest, clearest statements of Scripture a mystery and attempt to make them say just the opposite of their intended meaning. You've no doubt heard people read, "The dead know nothing," and then turn right around and say it is telling us that the dead are in heaven and know more than the living. They will tell you that Ecc. 9: 5 is only talking about the body.

Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years? Please give the reference.

[pnattmbtc]

The Bible is very clear on the subject of the non-immortality of the soul and of eternal torment. It is also very clear on subjects such as the Second Coming but the clarity of the Bible does not keep people from believing falsehoods.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

In light of your statement above, how do you explain the fact that the Bible and Spirit of prophecy themselves so clearly use language which leads its readers to conclusions which you believe perpetuate Satan's lie? For instance, isn't it true that the Bible unquestionably contains much language that describes God as destroying the wicked in fire? Would God inspire the prophets to write in this way and then blame Bible students and readers if they accept the prophet's writings for what they actually say?

the same argument could be used by those who believe in eternal torment.

Or predestination.

now if that isnt one difficult one to "explain away"!! or that God did not really make one nation go after another nation to punish them.

why would God inspire bible writers to say such things that we strongly disagree with! that we have to work so hard to disprove!

[pnattmbtc]

Anyone who can't understand what those words means is either not wanting to understand them or else can't read plain English.

[Robert]

That isn't how it will happen if you accept the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

No, you mean if we accept your views?....Sorry, you can't force your interpretation on us....This smacks of self-importance....

[teresaq]

Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years? Please give the reference.

with all due respect, can you give one pioneer who believed in the "trinity" doctrine? or that the Holy Spirit literally inhabits a person? please give the reference.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Can you tell us who the first SDA was who stated clearly that God will not destroy the wicked by fire after the one thousand years?

If you mean by "destroy the wicked by fire" torturing them for days by setting them on fire, Ellen White is one. Teresa I think has quoted quite a few others.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: Not from Ellen White it couldn't. She speaks very plainly,...

Quote:

What book of the Bible can I find EGW? Hmmm? Can't find the book of Ellen.

Look in Jack Sequeira's books, Robert. You will find plenty of her there, as well as many quotes used as authority. No one is saying she is in the Bible. But then neither is Jack Sequeira or M. Cambell. None of those are authorities. For SDAs, however, Ellen White is a continuing authority. We recognize her as an inspired prophet of God. I know Jack Sequeira does since he refers to her writings as "the Spirit of prophecy."

[Robert]

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It's called a huge ego....His education has gone to his head....He think he is Mr. Bible...the answer man. At one time I would have listened to John, but I've learned forceful folks like John, as well meaning as they might be, are fallible people who many times are wrong....We must arrive at truth for ourselves....If we are honestly wrong God still accepts us....but He will never accept us through another's theology.