"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

Suupose God did do what He pleased and what He pleased was evil. What would you do about it? Exactly nada--nothing.

That's the type of God you present....

[Robert]

The law is not equal to God, as if God has some kind of obligation to the law.

Hmmm? So God tells us to keep the law, but He Himself does as He pleases? Sorry, not one in his right mind would accept such a hypocrite.

Do as I say, not as I do...

[John317]

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pnattmbtc: I agree. The law describes truth. It doesn't create it.

Right. The law describes, rather than creates, the Truth; and this Truth is the Godhead. God wrote the law as He did because of who He is and in order to meet mankind where we are. God was free to write the law according the counsel of His own will.

[Robert]

"The person who doesn't love doesn't know God, because God is love."

Note the contrast...the believer that doesn't experience "agape" doesn't know God. Why? Because to experience God is to experience agape. Why? "God IS agape."

The commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, and if there is any other commandment-all are summed up by this: Love [agape] your neighbor as yourself. Love [agape] does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.

God IS love and love is the fulfillment of the law. God, then, is the fulfillment of the law. He is not above the law. He loves His enemies.

[Robert]

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John317: Rob, if you continue to use names of people which they have told you not to use, you will be banned from the theology threads. Stop it.

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You have never told me not to call you Johnny, John. Give me evidence that you've said "do not call me Johnny"!

You were told a long time ago to call people by the names they request to be called by. I've deleted your use of "Johnny" before, so I assumed that you remembered. If you didn't remember, then I'm restating the request now.

[John317]

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Robert: That's the type of God you present....

Here's the God I present. It is not a complete portrait but it is certainly part of God's portrait:

"Moses commanded the men of war to destroy the women and male children. Balaam had sold the children of Israel for a reward, and he perished with the people whose favour he had obtained at the sacrifice of twenty-four thousand of the Israelites. The Lord is regarded as cruel by many in requiring His people to make war with other nations. They say that it is contrary to His benevolent character. But He Who made the world, and formed man to dwell upon the earth, has unlimited control over all the works of His hands, and it is His right to do as He pleases, and what He pleases with the work of His hands. Man has no right to say to his Maker, Why doest Thou thus? There is no injustice in His character. He is the Ruler of the world, and a large portion of His subjects have rebelled against His authority, and have trampled upon His law . . . He has used His people as instruments of His wrath, to punish wicked nations, who have vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry." Spiritual Gifts, 4:50, 51.

[Robert]

He has used His people as instruments of His wrath, to punish wicked nations, who have vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry." Spiritual Gifts, 4:50, 51.

And then He kills them off using Hitler as an instrument of His wrath....I mean why not make that conclusion, John? After all your God does as He pleases.

[John317]

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Robert:

... you stated that EGW said they law always existed before the fall of mankind. Can you say conundrum?

God's last-day prophet wrote:

"The law of God, from its very nature, is unchangeable. It is a revelation of the will and the character of its Author." G.C.467.

"The principles of the ten commandments existed before the fall, and were of a character suited to the condition of a holy order of beings. After the fall, the principles of those precepts were not changed, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state." 3 SG 295.

[John317]

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John317: It plainly teaches that God intended for the Egyptians to follow the Israelies into the sea and be drowned. Ex. 14: 17.

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ROBERT: You have lost it....You have made a god in your image...after your sick human nature. I have absolutely no respect for you....Everything you state perverts God's love. Instead of drawing folks to God, you are driving them away. You will be opposed!

I'm saying what the Bible says. But if you believe I am not, show from the Bible that I'm wrong. Don't just make accusations and claims. For instance, tell how the text I refer to shows that God did not intend for the Egyptians to follow the Israelites into the sea.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc: Remember that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. How do we know when this is or is not the case? (i.e., when God is taking direct action, as opposed to removing His protection).

For example, we're told that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites. What did God actually do here? Did He take direct action, or remove His protection? How do we know?

The serpents were an example of destructive power resulting from God's permissive will. He withdrew his protective care from His people.

Remember that Ellen White says destructive power comes from two sources: from God's angels when He commands, and from evil angels when He permis. Ellen White wrote in PP 429 that this event occurred as a result of God's withdrawing His protective care in order to teach the people a lesson about obedience. God wanted them to understand that as long as they obeyed, He would protect them, but if they peristed in disobedience, He would leave them to reap the consequences of their sins.

When would you say God commanded angels of heaven to exercise destructive power?

Has He ever?

Remember this is different from destructions that comes because God permits the evil forces to work.

[Robert]

God's last-day prophet wrote:

Not an authority....

[John317]

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John317: He has used His people as instruments of His wrath, to punish wicked nations, who have vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry." Spiritual Gifts, 4:50, 51.

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ROBERT: And then He kills them off using Hitler as an instrument of His wrath....I mean why not make that conclusion, John? After all your God does as He pleases.

Do you remember from the Bible where he used wicked nations to punish His people Israel? That is what happened with Babylon. See, for instance, Habakkuk 1. Also Daniel 1: 1, 2.

[Robert]

I'm saying what the Bible says. But if you believe I am not, show from the Bible that I'm wrong. Don't just make accusations and claims.

Are you perfect, just as God is perfect? But Jesus says, "you shall be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect."

So throughout the Bible you have conundrums, you have paradoxes...you have parables...you have metaphors and you have principles like God taking the blame for those things he does not prevent...

[Robert]

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John317: He has used His people as instruments of His wrath, to punish wicked nations, who have vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry." Spiritual Gifts, 4:50, 51.

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ROBERT: And then He kills them off using Hitler as an instrument of His wrath....I mean why not make that conclusion, John? After all your God does as He pleases.

Do you remember from the Bible where he used wicked nations to punish His people Israel?

Punishment is given to bring about change, murder kills change...it is forever.

So you agree that God used Hitler to murder the Jews? Wow, God and the devil working together. Sick, sick, sick....

[John317]

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John317: God's last-day prophet wrote:

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Robert Not an authority....

She's an authority to Seventh-day Adventists, and she is an authority to Jack Sequeira.

I believe in her and in her ministry, and have no doubt that God wants us to listen to her and pay close attention to her.

[John317]

So you agree that God used Hitler to murder the Jews? Wow, God and the devil working together. Sick, sick, sick....

Actually,no I don't think God was punishing the Jews in WW II.

What I said was that the Bible contains illustrations of God punishing His people by the use of the wicked.

I don't know if God was punishing the Jews but I doubt it. I think it resulted from the fact that the Jews don't put their faith in Jehovah.

[Robert]

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John317: God's last-day prophet wrote:

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Robert Not an authority....

She's an authority to Seventh-day Adventists, and she is an authority to Jack Sequeira.

I believe in her and in her ministry, and have no doubt that God wants us to listen to her and pay close attention to her.

Jack quotes her "other" quotes to counter the legalists within the SDA church who use her writings to push their brand of heresies on unsuspecting believers...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So you agree that God used Hitler to murder the Jews? Wow, God and the devil working together. Sick, sick, sick....

Actually,no I don't think God was punishing the Jews in WW II.

What I said was that the Bible contains illustrations of God punishing His people by the use of the wicked.

I don't know if God was punishing the Jews but I doubt it. I think it resulted from the fact that the Jews don't put their faith in Jehovah.

This is madding...it's hellish...it's heresy. God gets [censored] because the Jews didn't place their faith in him and he uses other wicked folks to murder them?

The fact you think like this proves, beyond all reason, that aren't being controlled by the spirit of God....This is the spirit of the anti-christ..

[Robert]

God wants us to listen to her and pay close attention to her.

No, that's an opinion....God wants us to go the Bible. You haven made an idol of EGW. As long as you continue to do this you drive people from truth....They will see such as a cult and run....Can't blame them...

[John317]

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Robert: Jack quotes her "other" quotes to counter the legalists within the SDA church who use her writings to push their brand of heresies on unsuspecting believers...

How do you know this? He sounds like he's doing something like you do if in fact that is what his motive is for quoting her. You mean he just "uses" her like you do?

[Robert]

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Robert: Jack quotes her "other" quotes to counter the legalists within the SDA church who use her writings to push their brand of heresies on unsuspecting believers...

How do you know this?

I can read.... teehe

[John317]

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John317: God wants us to listen to her and pay close attention to her.

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ROBERT: No, that's an opinion....God wants us to go the Bible. You haven made an idol of EGW. As long as you continue to do this you drive people from truth....They will see such as a cult and run....Can't blame them...

I'm quoting her. She said it; I didn't. It is true unless she was an out-and-out liar.

You honestly think God would give a woman 2000 dreams and visions, and have her write all that material for the church, and then not intend for the people in the church to read it?

You must realize that it's the devil who doesn't want people to read her wriitings. She even predicted that not long before Christ's return there would be a Satanic hatred against her writings. I know I see this kind of hatred. It is not of the Holy Spirit.

[Robert]

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She even predicted that not long before Christ's return there would be a Satanic hatred against her writings. I know I see this kind of hatred. It is not of the Holy Spirit.

No, you took that out of context....This is how the legalist in the SDA church work!

Here's the context:

They are surface workers [speaking of those who resisted the truth of justification by faith], and delude themselves with the idea that they are christians. So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This [the self-righteous] is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation. [Then your out of context quote:] There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic.

This context if self-righteousness. The hatred will be against the testimonies due to self-righteousness - those other quotes that you never quote....

[John317]

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Robert: I can read.... teehe

What have you read by him that you believe shows he uses Ellen White that way?

I have never met him. I like reading some of his books, but I don't agree with everything he says.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: She even predicted that not long before Christ's return there would be a Satanic hatred against her writings. I know I see this kind of hatred. It is not of the Holy Spirit.

Who is "the legalist"?

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ROBERT: Here's the context:

They are surface workers, and delude themselves with the idea that they are christians. So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation. There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic.

What's the reference?

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God.... Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. THERE WILL BE A HATRED KINDLED AGAINST THE TESTIMONIES WHICH IS SATANIC." 1 SM 48

Here it is from the original letter where she wrote it:

The Last Deception of Satan

Satan is ... constantly pressing in the spurious—to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. “Where there is no vision, the people perish” (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God’s remnant people in the true testimony.—Letter 12, 1890.

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.—Letter 40, 1890.

She is talking here about Satan using people to unsettle God's remnant people's confidence in the prophetic ministry and the writings of Ellen G. White. We have certainly seen that going on a lot, haven't we? Do you see what she says will be the very last deception?

Why did you say that I was taking it out of context? Why did say it is what "the legalist" does? I quoted it correctly and in context.

You've talked before about throwing her writings in the trash and you often cross out her name and the title of books, at the same time that you quote her whenever she says something you like or can use to make a point you wish to make. You also often attack her and put her down. Why?

Personally I love her and her writings, just as I do God's word. They are both from God.