"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Pnat, that quote in DA 487 is referring to us, not God. Notice she says WE. That perfectly harmonizes with LDE 241.

She's using Jesus Christ as an example. Here's the whole paragraph:

Quote:

It is no part of Christ's mission to compel men to receive Him. It is Satan, and men actuated by his spirit, that seek to compel the conscience. Under a pretense of zeal for righteousness, men who are confederate with evil angels bring suffering upon their fellow men, in order to convert them to their ideas of religion; but Christ is ever showing mercy, ever seeking to win by the revealing of His love. He can admit no rival in the soul, nor accept of partial service; but He desires only voluntary service, the willing surrender of the heart under the constraint of love. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. {DA 487.3}

Remember that Jesus Christ was the representative of the Father. This was the whole purpose of His mission:

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)

So Christ, in demonstrating that it was no part of His mission to compel men to receive Him, demonstrated that it was no part of the Father's government to compel men to save Him. When we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father.

Further she states that "He desires only voluntary service, the willing surrender of the heart under the constraint of love."

There are many other similar statements. For example:

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. (DA 22)

This is the context of the statement:

Quote:

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas.

The reason there can be no more conclusive evidence that we posses the spirit of Satan than to have such a disposition as suggested here is because it is the spirit of Satan to have such a disposition. It's not the spirit of Christ, and the spirit of Christ is the same as that as the Father, as Christ was one with the Father.

The idea that this applies to us, but not to God, misses the whole point of what she's saying.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

______________________________________

But that statement does not say that God directly inflicts this punishment Himself. It is difficult for human beings to accept the idea that God would even give us up to the enemy and that the enemy would make us suffer by fire or whatever means he can use.

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner." 1 S.M.235.

Even when it is said that God will take things in hand to punish sin doesn't mean that He does it direclty.

"When parents or rulers neglect to discipline their children God will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin." P.P.739.

Richard, this is another example as to how we are to compare statement with statement. This last statement gives us the key as to how to interpret statements the like of which you just quoted.

there are many statements of the retribution of God falling on the jewish people and God punishing them.

all we have to do is read the Destruction of Jerusalem to see how God punished them. it is quite detailed. The Bible and the French Revolution also is a detailed.

but it is our choice if we choose to know or not.

Right. "We need every ray of light the Lord sends to us in order to be the light of the world." E.G. White

sky

[Robert]

What's the moral difference between saying "Obey me or I'll kill you" and "Obey me or I'll let someone else kill you"?

First of all "obey or die" is Old Covenant:

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [EGW]

Second of all God is not inviting anyone to do evil. It's more like in the absence of His presence evil things happen. Some through humans...some through nature...some through Satan....God will not protect those who reject Him. Why? Agape doesn't force itself on those who reject God....

[pnattmbtc]

No no. You have it backwards. You are not to use one statement to trump another. The only way those two statements can harmonize, is to read them in the light of the statement that leaves nothing out. Which is the one I quoted. To do otherwise, you would have to twist the one statement to the point of distorting it in order to make it not say what it plainly says.

When you have to twist a statement to make it say what you want it to say, then you have obviously abandoned the correct path, for some strange ideology.

[Robert]

for some strange ideology.

No..it's your ideology that's strange...real strange.

I'll go an extra step....You're a man who has lots of guns...You say it's for target practice, but I bet it's for protection.

Funny, the Bible says "he who loves his life will lose it". And Jesus said, "he who lives by the sword (guns now) dies by the sword." And the last generation...the remnant...loved not their lives even unto death.

So technically, good man, you are breaking the law....You love self...which shows up with your insecurity in all the guns you possess. So the flesh has a hold on you in this area, but yet you claim to be a law keeper.

Since you are a transgressor, well, God's going to get you...He's going to slap you around, maybe break your neck because of your iniquity. That's the God you present...so watch out.

Rob

[pnattmbtc]

The Bible and the French Revolution also is a detailed (explanation).

Right! I always think of the Jerusalem example, but this is a good one to consider too. You can see the language describing things as direct actions of God in contrast with what actually happened, which involved God's permitting the calamities which came as a result of casting Him aside.

Would you quote that healing one again, if you have that easy to find? The one about the laws of health being a means of evangelism, showing that the accusations of Satan are false, that disease comes as a result of disorder, of transgression.

If it's not easy to find, I can get it later.

[Guest]

[quote name="Robert"]

Opinions....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Opinions....

{CH 300}

{CE 100}

{GC88 478}

What do you think, quoting more opinions makes me accept them blindly? No way...dude.

[Robert]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible , and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

Actually, the above is probably an accurate opinion! teehe

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

for some strange ideology.

No..it's your ideology that's strange...real strange.

I'll go an extra step....You're a man who has lots of guns...You say it's for target practice, but I bet it's for protection.

Funny, the Bible says "he who loves his life will lose it". And Jesus said, "he who lives by the sword (guns now) dies by the sword." And the last generation...the remnant...loved not their lives even unto death.

So technically, good man, you are breaking the law....You love self...which shows up with your insecurity in all the guns you possess. So the flesh has a hold on you in this area, but yet you claim to be a law keeper.

Since you are a transgressor, well, God's going to get you...He's going to slap you around, maybe break your neck because of your iniquity. That's the God you present...so watch out.

Rob

I see. You seem to be struggling with some other (underlying) issues there old chap. You may want to have that looked into. I will pray for you. I know that for myself, once I truly became willing to turn my will and my life over to the care of God, and asked that the Holy Spirit would guide and direct my thinking. Self control is no longer a problem, and I no longer feel the need to tell others what I think of them.

[Robert]

I see. You seem to be struggling with some other (underlying) issues there old chap. You may want to have that looked into.

Get self-righteous..you better be afraid because you are failing to live Christ's life! You better obey or God will take you out....Sell the guns...let go of your insecurities...are you afraid to die? Jesus didn't fight back...He didn't have weapons...He didn't swing the sword around and say it was for practice. The law demands perfect, agape...a love that does not seeks its own. Since you are failing, then here's what God will do to you:

Deut 28:15 "But if you do not obey the Lord your God by carefully following all His commands and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come and overtake you: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. ...18 Your descendants will be cursed...19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send against you curses, confusion, and rebuke in everything you do until you are destroyed and quickly perish, because of the wickedness of your actions in disobeying Me. 21 The Lord will make pestilence cling to you until He has exterminated you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will afflict you with wasting disease, fever, inflammation, burning heat, drought, blight, and mildew; these will pursue you until you perish. 23 The sky above you will be bronze, and the earth beneath you iron. ... 27 "The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt, tumors, a festering rash, and scabies, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and mental confusion, 29 so that at noon you will grope as a blind man gropes in the dark.

I, the Lord, do all these things!

[phkrause]

It amazies me Rob that Richard's thoughts are opinions but yours are not? How does that work? It seems to me that you have all truth and all others just opinions! Not one other person has yelled at you, but you force your truth on others. Come on Rob your a better person than that. Or at least I thought so. That's not to say that your thoughts have no merit because they do.

pk

[Robert]

It amazies me Rob that Richard's thoughts are opinions but yours are not?

[teresaq]

in context below. im very curious as to what this was in response to. is there any way to find out?

Pnat, that quote in DA 487 is referring to us, not God. Notice she says WE. That perfectly harmonizes with LDE 241. Here I'll post it again. Read it this time.

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

MR No. 963 - The Days of Noah

As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice.--Ms 5, 1876, pp. 1-3.

White Estate Washington, D. C. January 6, 1983 {12MR 208.3}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

The Bible and the French Revolution also is a detailed (explanation).

Right! I always think of the Jerusalem example, but this is a good one to consider too. You can see the language describing things as direct actions of God in contrast with what actually happened, which involved God's permitting the calamities which came as a result of casting Him aside.

Would you quote that healing one again, if you have that easy to find? The one about the laws of health being a means of evangelism, showing that the accusations of Satan are false, that disease comes as a result of disorder, of transgression.

If it's not easy to find, I can get it later.

With sin came sickness and suffering, for we reap that which we sow.

Satan afterward caused man to charge upon God the suffering which is but the sure result of the transgression of physical law.

God is thus falsely accused, and his character misrepresented.

He is charged with doing that which Satan himself has done.

God would have his people expose this falsehood of the enemy.

To them he has given the light of the gospel of health, and as his representatives they are to give the light to others.

As they work to relieve suffering humanity, they are to point out the origin of all suffering, and direct the mind to Jesus, the great Healer of both soul and body.

His heart of sympathy goes out to all earth's sufferers, and with every one who works for their relief, he co-operates.

As with his blessing health returns, the character of God will be vindicated, and the lie thrown back upon Satan, its originator. {Christian Educator, October 1, 1898 par. 9}

pestilence (murrain):

H1698 deber deh'-ber

From H1696 (in the sense of destroying); a pestilence: - murrain, pestilence, plague.

H1698 deber BDB Definition:

1) pestilence, plague

2) murrain, cattle disease, cattle-plague

Part of Speech: noun masculine

A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1696 (in the sense of destroying)

Same Word by TWOT Number: 399b

vines Pestilence (murrain)

deber (H1698), "pestilence." The meaning of the cognate word varies in other Semitic languages from the Hebrew. In Ugaritic, dbr probably signifies "death." The Arabic word dabrat means "misfortune," similar to the Akkadian dibiru, "misfortune." The word occurs fewer than 60 times in the Old Testament, and mainly in the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

The meaning of deber is best denoted by the English word "pestilence" or "plague." A country might be quickly reduced in population by the "plague" (cf. 2Sa_24:13 ff.). The nature of the "plague" (bubonic or other) is often difficult to determine from the contexts, as the details of medical interest are not given or are scanty. In the prophetical writings, the "plague" occurs with other disasters: famine, flood, and the sword: "When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence" (Jer_14:12).

The Septuagint gives the following translation: thanatos ("death").

Exo 9:3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.

Exo 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Deu 28:21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

Deu 28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

The Lord would have us understand that these mighty ones who visit our world have borne an active part in the work which we have called our own. These heavenly beings are ministering angels, They have been sent forth to cleanse away pestilence.{RH, November 22, 1898 par. 6}

The Lord works continually to benefit mankind. He is ever imparting His bounties. He raises up the sick from beds of languishing, He delivers men from peril which they do not see, He commissions heavenly angels to save them from calamity, to guard them from "the pestilence that walketh in darkness" and "the destruction that wasteth at noonday" (Psalm 91:6); {DA 348.1}

[skyblue888]

Teresa, these statements (from your post #342745) leave no doubt that justice will be executed upon the finally impenitent. God will do exactly as He has said He will do. He will leave the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. He will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work. At the end of the day it will be seen that in God was there ever any disposition to hurt or destroy those who did not appreciate His work or acted contrary to His ideas. The rejectors of His mercy will simply reap what they have sown. Having sinned away their day of grace, they will be left to the leader they had chosen. Satan's vindictive power over those who yielded to his control will be made manifest.

sky

*At the end of the 1,000 years Satan and his angels will get a taste of their own medicine when the most violent of the nations, filled with the fury of demons, shall turn upon them and they shall bring them down into the Pit. Ezekiel 28:6-10.

[John317]

I'm posting this now in order not to lose it from my computer, but I'm not quite finished writing it.

Quote:

John317:

E.G White 1888 Materials, p. 340, 341

Also in Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, p. 108.

"And when the devil comes and points to your sins and hateful crimes, tell him, “Yes, I am a sinner, but Christ is a Saviour, and He says, ‘I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance’” [Matthew 9:13]. Thus you arm yourself with the whole armor of Christ’s righteousness? How is it you have not on the armor of Christ’s righteousness? What did He come to this world for? Why, if it had been a possible thing for us to have been brought back to keeping God’s commandments, He never would have come to this world; but He came here because it was impossible for man to redeem himself and bring himself into a position where Adam stood before the fall. Then what was he to do? Christ came, our substitute and surety.

Before He came they were under a yoke; but Christ was above law, He was the originator of the law, so there was no yoke upon Him; and the angels were in obedience to Christ, who was not under the yoke. He could come as one equal with the Father, and He could open His breast to the whole woe, grief, sin, and misery, and by an offering of Himself He could bring life and immortality to light through the gospel. This is the only hope of life, and when Christ cried out, “It is finished,” He carried out the devised plan. He had died in behalf of the race, as a freewill offering to God. He was not urged to do it, but He took it upon Himself that He might save the fallen race. He goes down into the grave and comes up out of the grave.

Quote:

skyblue888: John, are you suggesting that in that statement the Holy Spirit is saying that "the law of ten precepts of the greatest love ever presented to man" is a "yoke"? In this context the "yoke" is a burden. The living oracles as Christ spoke them at Sinai are not a yoke for they are a transcript of His own divine nature.

They are not a yoke, or a burden, when you can fully obey them and when you are not relying on your obedience in order to redeem yourself and to bring yourself into a position in relationship with God where Adam stood before the Fall. But those living oracles are most certainly a "yoke" or a burden to ANYONE who is relying on obedience to law in order to "be brought back to keeping God's commandments," or to "redeem himself and bring himself into a position where Adam stood before the fall." Notice that this is the context: how to be brought back to keeping God's commandments--- how to redeem ourselves and bring ourselves into a position where Adam stood in relationship with God before the Fall. We couldn't possibly do that, and therefore the law-- all law as requirement for those purposes-- was a burden. Why? Because our inability to keep the law stood in the way of accomplishing those goals, (1) being brought back to keeping God's commandments; and (2) redeeming ourselves and bringing ourselves back into the same position where Adam stood in relationship with God before the Fall.

Quote:

skyblue888: Christ is not above the law of ten precepts and neither is the Father. God and the Law are one. How can God be above His own Law if it is a transcript of His own character?

He is "above law" in the sense that Ellen White is using that phrase here. She is saying that God the Father and the Son do not rely on obedience to law in order to be righteous or to become rightous. They are righteousness itself. They are love itself. They don't "do" the law or "do" what's loving-- they themselves are the law and they themselves are love. So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules. Why? Because the law, as we read it, is a written expression of God's very character. Therefore, to the degree that the law describes God's character, they are not a set of rules which He obeys. They are rules to us so that we may know what we must do in order to be in harmony with His character. For instance, we can't expect to be in harmony with Him if we don't love others and if we don't love Him with our whole being.

I think when some people speak of "above law," they imagine it means being at liberty to do all sorts of things contrary to the law. But that is not the sense in which Ellen White uses it. She is not describing the pre-incarnate Christ as someone who was acting in a way that was contrary to the moral law, although some people might think He was acting unjustly by such things as commanding the Israelites to go to war against their neighbors. She is saying that before He came here, Christ was already equal to the Father and therefore in perfect relationship with Him. There was no necessity to keep the law as rules or requirements in order to redeem himself or to bring himself back into harmony with God. Christ was not obligated to sacrifice Himself but He was a "freewill offering to God."

Christ and the Father set the standards of the law by virtue of the fact that they ARE the law. The law, then, does not dictate or instruct them as it does creatures. For instance, if Christ and the Father had decided to allow humanity to reap the consequences of sin-- eternal death-- they would have been right to do so, and no one would have had grounds for saying He was unfair or unjust to do it. They were not obligated to any standard which dicated that they had to save mankind. That is why Christ was able to give Himself as a freewill offering to God. He could not have done this if He was not above law.

Why, then, did God and Christ and the Holy Spirit work together for the salvation of the human race? Strictly out of their love, grace, and pity-- for no other reason, and certainly not in order to conform to any law. If God had to do something because of a law, it would make the law superior to God, and this cannot be. As Louis Berkhof says, "Though there is no law above God, there is certainly a law in the very nature of God, and this is the highest possible standard, by which all other laws are judged." (Systematic Theology, Berkhof, Wm. B. Eernmans Pub. Co., p. 74)

The fact that the Godhead is "above law" is the reason Ellen White could make such statements as the following:

"God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws...[God] can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, BUT GOD DROWNED THE VAST WORLD. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, BUT GOD WOULD DO IT IN STRICT JUSTICE." 12 MR 207-209

"The Lord is regarded as cruel by many in requiring his people to make war with other nations. They say that it is contrary to his benevolent character. But he who made the world and formed man to dwell upon the earth, has unlimited control over all the works of his hands, and it is his right to do as he pleases, and what he pleases with the work of his hands. Man has no right to say to his maker, Why doest thou thus? There is no injustice in his character. He is the Ruler of the world..." Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, p. 50.

From this we learn several things about God:

1) The same moral standard does not apply to God as it does to mankind. It would be wrong for people to inflict the kind of punishment that it is right for God in inflict on humans.

2) The moral standards are made by God, the Ruler of the world and of the entire universe. The law does not exist apart from Him. The law is not something that stands above God so that He must conform His behavior to it. He does not consult the law in order to decide what He will or will not do. He consults only His will, and since there is no injustice in His character, He always acts in harmony with His own character of righteousness, justice, holiness, love, and mercy.

3) God alone decides how to execute His own laws. People do not and cannot decide how God should execute God's laws. Man has no right to say to his maker, Why doest thou thus?

4) God has unlimited control over all the works of his hands, and it is his right to do as he pleases, and what he pleases with the work of his hands.

Continued on next post

[John317]

Continued.

Quote:

skyblue888: It may be that Mrs. White here is speaking of the fact that before Jesus came the Jews were under the law in the sense that they were under its condemnation for they did not keep that law.

You say the Jews did not keep "that law"-- i.e., the law of circumcision-- and of course that is very true; but they obviously also did not keep the Ten Commandments. So they were failing to keep both the ceremonial law AND the moral law. Ellen White's whole point is that they were unable to keep any law for the purpose of redeeming themselves or bringing themselves back into the position with God that Addam stood before the Fall. That inability stood between them and God. Therefore it was a yoke, or burden.

Look again at Ellen White's statement: "If it had been a possible thing for us to have been brought back to keeping God’s commandments, He never would have come to this world; but He came here because it was impossible for man to redeem himself and bring himself into a position where Adam stood before the fall. Then what was he to do? Christ came, our substitute and surety. Before He came they were under a yoke; but Christ was above law, He was the originator of the law, so there was no yoke upon Him; and the angels were in obedience to Christ, who was not under the yoke. He could come as one equal with the Father..."

Before coming to earth as a man, Christ was one equal with the Father. That means Christ did not have to obey the Father. They work together because of love and because their purposes are identical. But they are not subject to one another, as the angels and humans are subject to Christ. Christ is not subject to the law, because He is above it and is its originator. Notice that she contrasts the fact that the angels were in obedience to Christ, whereas Christ was not under any yoke because He is equal with the Father.

Quote:

skyblue888: It had become a yoke of bondage to them for they knew not the Spirit of the Law which is Christ Himself abiding in the heart of the believer.

In the sense that Ellen White was speaking of a "yoke," the law had always been a yoke because of the fallen, sinful nature of man. Her point is that law cannot bring us back to keeping God's commandments, and no one can redeem or bring themselves back into the same position where Adam stood in relationship to God before the Fall. She does not say that the law had "become a yoke," but she says, "they were under a yoke."

Quote:

skyblue888: The ten commandments as they proceed out of the mouth of God, and received as such, are not a "yoke of bondage" for they impart the very life of the Infinite One to transform the nature and to re-create the soul in the image of God.

The law-- the principle of law-- cannot possibly impart life to transform the nature and recreate the soul in the image of God. Only Christ and His Spirit can do that. The law cannot save us or bring us back into the same position where Adam stood before the Fall. It required Christ to do that by His coming as a freewill offering to God and as our substitute and surety. He could only do that because He was equal to the Father and above law.

The law itself shows us God's ideal for us, but of itself it cannot give us strength to obey or to redeem ourselves. All it can do is show us our need of Christ, who Himself transforms the nature and by His Spirit recreates the soul in the image of God.

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skyblue888: There was another law which was said to be a "yoke" and it was the law of circumcision. Christ was certainly above that law but as a man he was subject to it for He was our example. But as God He is above that law but it can never be said that He is above the moral law for He is the moral Law. That law is a transcript of His own nature.

The "yoke" here is the principle of law, not any particular law. Why? Because no man could redeem himself because the law was impossible of himself to keep and bring himself into a position where Adam stood in relationship with God before the fall. Notice that she is talking about the keeping of God's commandments, and she says humanity could not be brought back to keeping those commandments apart from Christ's coming to our world as a human being. It is in that sense that the law is a yoke. It was something that was keeping us from being able to redeem ourselves and from being able to bring ourselves into a position where Adam stood before the Fall.

Notice the words, "Christ was above law." Again, that is not any particular law but law itself. Before coming here to this earth, Christ was the maker of law; He was not under any law in the sense that He was obligated to keep it as a rule or requirement. It is the principle of law as a requirement-- as rules to be kept-- that is being spoken of here. Christ was the originator of the law that was given to human beings, and that includes both the law of circumcision and the moral law summarized in the Ten Commandments. It was Christ who spoke the law from Mt. Sinai and wrote it with His own finger on tablets of stone, and therefore it is self-evident that "Christ was above law."

[skyblue888]

John, the statement that stood out for me from your last post is:

"So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules."

It would seem that you are suggesting that to the children of God the law of ten precepts, the law of God's mouth, is something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. It may be a set of rules for those who have not experienced the new birth but for those who are born from above the law of God's mouth is not something exterior to them any more than it is to God. Christ is the living law and when He abides in the heart the Law of God is in the heart. It is then said that the Law is written upon the fleshly tablets of the heart which is just another way of saying that the believer has become a partaker of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4. The believer has become one with Christ who is the Living Law.

The law of God's mouth is Spirit and Life, not a set of rules. But for those who only know the letter of the law, the law is a set of rules and in their efforts to obey these rules they become mere moralists or legalists as were the Pharisees of old.

sky

[Guest]

These statements (from post #342745) leave no doubt that justice will be executed upon the finally impenitent. God will do exactly as He has said He will do. ...... He will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

sky you got the first two sentences right, but God does not leave sinners at the mercy of the destroyer to administer justice, and the correct punishment. The very thought of leaving that to Satan is absurd. Both the Bible and Ellen White say that the final destruction of the wicked comes from God. You can twist it and talk about universal principles all you want, but it doesn't change the facts of a thus saith the LORD.

At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead, and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written."...

Notice they appear before God for the execution of judgment, NOT SATAN, and not each other.

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. "Upon the wicked he (GOD) shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Fire comes down from God out of heaven. {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 12}

But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are ALL CONSUMED TOGETHER. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body.

She tells exactly how it will happen, and she doesn't back up your theory. You can say she is using Bible language all you want. But it doesn't change the fact that She has no reason to describe it in any other way than how it will happen. In fact, it would be very confusing if she were to do something like that. But everybody who has read her writings knows that she was a straight talker.

Your theory has her talking out of both sides of her neck.

[skyblue888]

And then you wrote: "The law--the principle of law--cannot possibly impart life to transform the nature and recreate the soul in the image of God.

John317

_________________________________________________

I agree that the "letter" of the law cannot impart life to transform the nature and re-create the soul in the image of God. "The letter (of the law) kills." 2 Cor.3:5. The letter of the law brings conviction of sin and shows us the need of a Saviour. It leads us to Christ and to His merits, that our ears may be opened to receive the law from His mouth. "The Lord has opened my ears." Ps.40:6; Isa.50:5. "Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22. The Psalmist had his ears opened. "I will never forget Your commandments, for by them You have given me life." Psalm 119:92.

In other words, when that same law is received as the Voice of God speaking to the soul in promise, it imparts power, it begets life, even a new life in Christ Jesus, for the law of God's mouth is Spirit and Life in Christ Jesus. "The words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are life." John 6:63.

"In every command and in every promise of the Word of God (not writen merely but spoken) is the power, the very life of God by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized. He who by faith receives the word (as the voice of God from Heaven speaking to his soul) is receiving the very life and character of God." C.O.L.38.

"The creative energy that called the worlds into existence is in the Word of God. That word imparts power; it begets life. Accepted by the will, received into the soul, it transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. And the life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live." Education, p.126.

The law of God's mouth is the ministry of the Spirit, the ministry of righteousness, the ministry of life in Christ Jesus.

sky

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: Do you remember from the Bible where he used wicked nations to punish His people Israel?

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Robert: Punishment is given to bring about change, murder kills change...it is forever.

OK, sure, that can be part of God's punishment against sinner and sin, but that is not the only kind of punishment involved in the final destruction of the wicked. There is, after all, a different kind of justice with God than there is with man. Even man, however, punishes some criminals in ways that make it impossible for the criminal to learn from it, as with the death penalty. While it will be too late for the wicked to reform, it will not be too late for them to understand why they must be destroyed, and to see the justice and even the love and mercy of God. The final destruction of the wicked and their punishment is also for the benefit of the whole universe.

The Bible describes the rectoral and distributive justice of God. We see rectoral justice in such passages as Ps. 99: 4 and Romans 1: 32. Distributive justice in Is. 3: 10, 11; Romans 2: 6; 1 Peter 1: 17. Distributive justice falls into two categories: 1) Remunerative Justice, or the distribution of rewards to both men and angels: Deut. 7: 9, 12, 13; 2 Chron. 6: 15; Ps. 58: 11; Micah 7: 20; Matt. 25: 21, 34; Rom. 2: 7; Heb. 11: 26. 2) Retributive Justice, which is the infliction of punishment: Romans 1: 32; 2: 9; 12: 19; 2 Thess. 1: 8 and many other verses.

We have to remember that the primary purpose of the punishment of sin is the maintenance of right and justice throughout God's entire universe. Although the Bible shows that the righteous do not merit the rewards they recieve, it does show that the wicked merit the punishment that is meted out to them. Ellen White speaks directly to this point in GC 660-661 and EW 52-53; 290-291. But if we choose to reject these passages of Scripture and of the Spirit of prophecy, we won't understand the punishment of the wicked but instead we may continue in rebellion against what God has told us He will do.

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888: ...the statement that stood out for me from your last post is:

"So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules."

It would seem that you are suggesting that to the children of God the law of ten precepts, the law of God's mouth, is something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. It may be a set of rules for those who have not experienced the new birth but for those who are born from above the law of God's mouth is not something exterior to them any more than it is to God. Christ is the living law and when He abides in the heart the Law of God is in the heart.

Yes, we agree on this point about the necessity of the new birth. I agree that with the Spirit in our life, Christ enables us to obey His commandments. But of course that is not done in order for us to redeem ourselves or bring us back into the position that Adam was in before the Fall. I thought that was plain from the following lines that I wrote, which are here enlarged and put in bold letters:

The law-- the principle of law-- cannot possibly impart life to transform the nature and recreate the soul in the image of God. Only Christ and His Spirit can do that. The law cannot save us or bring us back into the same position where Adam stood before the Fall. It required Christ to do that by His coming as a freewill offering to God and as our substitute and surety. He could only do that because He was equal to the Father and above law.

The law itself shows us God's ideal for us, but by itself it cannot give us strength to obey or to redeem ourselves. All it can do is show us our need of Christ, who Himself transforms the nature and by His Spirit recreates the soul in the image of God.

Let me know if you still feel either that I am in error or that I am not understanding your points.

[pnattmbtc]

He is "above law" in the sense that Ellen White is using that phrase here. She is saying that God the Father and the Son do not rely on obedience to law in order to be righteous or to become rightous. They are righteousness itself. They are love itself. They don't "do" the law or "do" what's loving-- they themselves are the law and they themselves are love. So the law is not something exterior to them, as a set of rules to be obeyed or performed. They are above such rules. Why? Because the law, as we read it, is a written expression of God's very character. Therefore, to the degree that the law describes God's character, they are not a set of rules which He obeys. They are rules to us so that we may know what we must do in order to be in harmony with His character.

[John317]

Quote:

skyblue888:

I agree that the "letter" of the law cannot impart life to transform the nature and re-create the soul in the image of God. "The letter (of the law) kills." 2 Cor.3:5. The letter of the law brings conviction of sin and shows us the need of a Saviour. It leads us to Christ and to His merits, that our ears may be opened to receive the law from His mouth. "The Lord has opened my ears." Ps.40:6; Isa.50:5. "Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22. The Psalmist had his ears opened. "I will never forget Your commandments, for by them You have given me life." Psalm 119:92.

In other words, when that same law is received as the Voice of God speaking to the soul in promise, it imparts power, it begets life, even a new life in Christ Jesus, for the law of God's mouth is Spirit and Life in Christ Jesus. "The words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are life." John 6:63.

"In every command and in every promise of the Word of God (not writen merely but spoken) is the power, the very life of God by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized. He who by faith receives the word (as the voice of God from Heaven speaking to his soul) is receiving the very life and character of God." C.O.L.38.

"The creative energy that called the worlds into existence is in the Word of God. That word imparts power; it begets life. Accepted by the will, received into the soul, it transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. And the life thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live." Education, p.126.

The law of God's mouth is the ministry of the Spirit, the ministry of righteousness, the ministry of life in Christ Jesus.

sky

AMEN. We're in complete agreement on this, sky.

I would simply reiterate what I wrote before, which I believe is also in complete agreement with what you wrote above:

I agree that with the Spirit in our life, Christ enables us to obey His commandments. But of course that is not done in order for us to redeem ourselves or bring us back into the position that Adam was in before the Fall.

The law-- the principle of law-- cannot possibly impart life to transform the nature and recreate the soul in the image of God. Only Christ and His Spirit can do that. The law cannot save us or bring us back into the same position where Adam stood before the Fall. It required Christ to do that by His coming as a freewill offering to God and as our substitute and surety. He could only do that because He was equal to the Father and above law.

The law itself shows us God's ideal for us, but by itself it cannot give us strength to obey or to redeem ourselves. All it can do is show us our need of Christ, who Himself transforms the nature and by His Spirit recreates the soul in the image of God.

Let me know if you agree with this, and think it agrees with what you wrote-- or at least does not contradict it.