"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

Some more Scripture references, along the lines of what tereseaq has posted:

Quote:

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deut 31:17, 18)

Quote:

They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. (Jer. 33:5)

Quote:

For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.

Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes. (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)

Quote:

And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.

And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (2 Kings 17:17-20)

Quote:

Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. (Ps. 27:9)

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How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire? (Ps. 89:46)

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Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit. (Ps. 143:7)

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Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! (Hosea 9:12)

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The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.

The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast. (Lam. 2:5-7)

Quote:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)

[teresaq]

and this:

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

and who causes pestilence?

[Robert]

How does this teaching make God a murderer,Rob? Signed, Heretic

If you are to believe the account just as it reads, well, then this is murder (especially the innocent):

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

I can buy that the Amalekite adult males attacked Israel (and maybe their women assisted in someway), but what did the infants, cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys do?

This is genocide. How can God say that He loves us more than Himself and simultaneous practice genocide? There's something wrong with this picture. It comes back to our understanding of God's agape is like a poor reflection in a mirror. We see His love...His agape, but what clouds it are these terrible statements.

[Robert]

It could be said that your theology makes God a pacifist who never exercises any control over His creation Robert...

Sin is a killer. The wages of sin brings death. If God kills then we must equate God with sin.

[Robert]

How can God say that He loves us more than Himself and simultaneous practice genocide? There's something wrong with this picture.

This is thinking out loud....The command from Samuel (1 Samuel 15:3) must have come from God, not Satan. There are times like when David numbered Israel that Satan incited him to do so, but I can't see this here....So I've been looking a bit deeper. I found this:

"By 1400 B.C. the Canaanite civilization and religion had become one of the weakest, most decadent, and most immoral cultures of the civilized world. Many of its repulsive practices were prohibited to Israel in Leviticus 18. In view of the sexual perversions listed, it is more than likely that venereal diseases ravaged a large part of the population. Hence stern measures were required to prevent decimation of the Israelites by the spread of these and other diseases such as malaria and smallpox. Contagion would be possible by sudden fraternization before immunity could develop. (ZPEB: s.v. "Joshua", p. 707).

.. Amalek continues to repeatedly oppress, terrorize, and vandalize Israel for between 200 and 400 more years! And yet, Amalekites were freely accepted as immigrants to Israel during this period.

Maybe...and I am thinking out loud, God had Israel "exterminate" the Amalekites because of disease? Didn't they burn everything when the did this?

References:

Click here

[teresaq]

interesting thoughts.

certainly something to pray and think about.

[teresaq]

ahhhh, christian thinktank!! really great site! that is one person who really studies. i got the best "trinity" study from there, tho it was extremely low-key.

that individual is along the lines of our pioneers when it comes to thorough study without(apparent)agenda.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

How does this teaching make God a murderer,Rob? Signed, Heretic

If you are to believe the account just as it reads, well, then this is murder (especially the innocent):

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

I can buy that the Amalekite adult males attacked Israel (and maybe their women assisted in someway), but what did the infants, cattle, sheep, camels and donkeys do?

This is genocide. How can God say that He loves us more than Himself and simultaneous practice genocide? There's something wrong with this picture. It comes back to our understanding of God's agape is like a poor reflection in a mirror. We see His love...His agape, but what clouds it are these terrible statements.

Why shouldn't one understand the account just as it reads? It's clear that it was God who ordered the "genocide" and then punished Saul for sparing the "innocent".Samuel then had to finish the job. So you've only got three choices. 1)understand the story as it reads 2)change the details of the story to make it fit another interpretation 3)ignore the story 4)say that the story never really happened.And it still doesn't explain why God is a murderer.

[Guest]

We see His love...His agape, but what clouds it are these terrible statements.

It must be a terrible thing for God not to measure up to your standard of what is right and wrong. In order to rightly say: These statements are terrible, and God could not have done this and still been righteous. Your understanding would have to be on the same level with God's.

What you're really saying is that the Bible is incorrect, except in the places where it describes God as doing the things that you can understand, and condone.

[teresaq]

what is amazing is that many people have problems with what happened in the ot as they understand it. they dont know how to deal with it.

and God does not judge them for that. religious church-goers might, but they do not speak for God.

im thinking some of the responses here really would not help them understand nor "woo" them to Christ. course if winning those around us to Christ is not a conscious goal, then it doesnt much matter how we behave or what we believe.

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But even in the corrupt condition in which the society of today is, there are souls capable of better things,--souls represented by Christ under the symbol of "the lost pearl." Christ gave up everything, that he might seek and save that which was lost, that he might recover the pearl that he valued at infinite cost. What are we ready to do to co-operate with him in this work? What sacrifice are we ready to make, that we may find the lost pearl, and place it in the hands of our Saviour? The cities are teeming with iniquity, and Satan suggests that it is impossible to do any good within their borders; and so they are sadly neglected. But there are lost pearls there, whose value you cannot realize until you earnestly seek to find them. There might be one hundred workers where there is but one, who might be seeking diligently, prayerfully, and with intense interest, to find the pearls that are buried in the rubbish of these cities. {RH, April 21, 1896 par. 5}

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: I'd like to reask a question I've asked before, and which has been answered, presenting what I understood the answer to be.

The question I asked is why those who feel that God will set people on fire for days to inflict excruciating pain upon them to punish them (aka "torture" per Webster, and GC 535) believe that God is capable of acting in such a way. This question has never been addressed, at least, in terms of what I'm actually wanting to know.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: :If you have Last Day Events, please see pp. 240, 241. There Ellen White gives you an answer.

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pnattmbtc: There is no possible way that Ellen White could answer the question I'm asking you, which is why you think God would be capable of the things you think He will do, most specifically setting people on fire to cause them to "suffer torture" for many days.

This is a personal question. It has to do with your values, your conception of God's character. Only you can answer this.

You ask why I believe that God is capable of destroying the wicked in fire at the end of the 1000 years. I believe it for the same reason that I believe God is capable of creating the world by His Word and that this same Word was capable of becoming a man and is still a man to this day. For many people, I admit, none of this sounds possible. In fact, for many it sounds absolutely ridiculous. They laugh at the concept of a God who is capable of creating the world in 6 days and of then coming here in the form of one of his own creatures. They stand in utter amazement that anyone could possibly be serious about this belief. They ask, "Why do you feel that God is capable of doing those things?" When I tell them that I will show them from the Bible, they sometimes reply that they are not interested in what "that book" says; they just want to know why I personally believe God is capable of doing those things and of being the way I describe Him.

To answer your question directly, let me first offer a number of Bible passages, which I encourage you to look up in your own translation, and then at the end of the post, I'll add a few comments about the signifance of these verses:

1) "The Lord [Yahweh] is a jealous God who punishes people. He pays them back for the evil things they do. His anger burns against them. The Lord punishes his enemies. He hold his anger back until the right time to use it. The Lord is slow to get angry. He is very powerful. The Lord will not let guilty people go without punishing them." Nahum 1: 2

2) "The Lord will rise up to judge, just as he did at Mt. Perazim. He will get up to act, just as he did in the Valley of Gibeon. He'll do his work, but it will be strange work. He'll carry out his task, but it will be an unexpected one." Is. 28: 21

3) Jesus Christ said, "The Son of man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds." Matt. 16: 27

4) Jesus said, "Behold, I am coming quicly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev. 22: 12

5) "The Lord, the Lord, God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth; keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation." Ex. 34: 6, 7.

6) "The Lord saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart. And the Lord said, 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them.' But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord... And He blotted out every living substance which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle... and they were blotted out from the earth; and Noah only was left..." Gen. 6: 5-8; 7: 23.

7) "And the Lord said, 'The cries against Sodom and Gomorrah are very great. Their sin is so bad that I will go down and see for myself. I want to see if what they have done is as bad as the cries that have reached me. If it is not, then I will know.'....Then the Lord sent down burning sulfur. It came down like rain on Sodom and Gomorrah. It came from the Lord out of the sky. He destroyed those cities and the whole valley. All of the people who were living in the cities were wiped out." Gen. 18: 20, 21; 19: 24, 25.

8) "God did not spare angels when they sinned. Instead, he sent them to the deepest pit of gloom. He put them in dark prisons. He will keep them there unil he judges them. God did not spare the world's ungodly people long ago. He brought the flood on them. But Noah preached about the right way to live. God kept him safe. He also saved seven others. God judged the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them to ashes. He made them an example of what is going to happen to ungoldy people." 2 Peter 2: 4-6

9)"You have said, 'It is useless to serve God. What did we gain by obeying his laws?... Things go well with those who do what is evil. And God doesn't even punish those who argue with him.' Those who had respect for the Lord talked with one another. They cheered each other up. And the Lord heard them. A list of people and what they did was written on a scroll in front of him. It included the names of those who resepcted the Lord and honored him. 'They will belong to me,' says the Lord who rules over all. 'They will be my special treasure. I will spare them just as a loving father spares his son who serves him. Then once again you will see the difference between godly people and sinful people. And you will see the difference between those who serve me and those who do not.

"You can be sure the day of the Lord is coming. My anger will burn like a furnace. All those who are proud will be like straw. So will all those who do what is evil. The day that is coming will burn them up,' says the Lord who rules over all. 'Not even a root or a branch will be left to them. But here is what will happen for you who have respect for me. The sun that brings life will rise. Its rays will bring healing to my people. You will go out and leap like calves that have just been let out of the barn. Then you will stomp on sinful people. They will be ashes under your feet. That will happen on the day I act,' says the Lord." Mal. 3: 14 to 4: 3.

10) Read the words of Jesus in Matt. 25: 31-46. Christ said that those who are saved will receive everlasting life but those who are lost will go away to be punished "in the fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels." Compare this with Luke 12: 42-48.

11) This is what God says about Himself in the Ten Commandments, which he spoke and then wrote with His own finger on tables of stone, "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. I punish the children for the sin of their parents. I punish the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those who hate me. But for all time to come I show love to all those who love me and keep my commandments." Ex. 20: 5,6.

12) "... it is impossible for God to lie..." "God is not a man , that He should lie..." "... God, who cannot lie..." Heb. 5: 18; Numbers 23: 19; Titus 1: 2

I believe on the basis of the study of the Bible that the concepts of divine love and judgment against sin both belong to God without contradiction. As shown above, when God revealed His glory to Moses, God explained that He is "a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping stteadfast love for thousands, forgivng iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty..."

The final destruction of the wicked takes place after they are judged by Christ and the righteous in heaven during the thousand years. Every life will be examined carefully and the motives and the deeds done in the flesh will all be taken into account. The Bible does not simply refer to the death of the wicked but it refers to their "punishment," "their recompense," and to "the day of the Lord's vengeance." Is. 34: 8. I agree with God that it is right for the wicked to be punished and receive "recompense" according to their deeds. I leave it up to Christ and the saints in heaven to make those decisions. Christ has earned our trust. I know that He loves everyone who's ever lived, even more than we love ourselves.

When God's character is understood in the light of all the Scriptures, then, it is clear that the biblical conception of God's wrath is not contradictory to or incompatible with His loving nature. God is both Father and Judge. God holds his intelligent creatures responsible for what they have done. This is the consistent testimony of Scripture from Genesis 3 to Rev. 21. In the final analysis, God's judgment against sin and the destruction of Satan and all the wicked who follow Satan is an essential part of the loving, righteous and holy character of God. As Ellen White said, "In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace." GC 543; cf. 4 SP 487, 488.

In view of the above, I would like to know why you deny that God will do what He has said He will do.

[John317]

[quote name='John317: What essential' date=' intrinsic characteristic of the seventh day of the week distinguishes it from the other days of the week?

Quote:

pnattmbtc: God rested on it and sanctified it.[/quote']

OK, sure, I agree. But how did God's doing those things on it change that particular twenty-four hour period inherently, or intrinsically?

Let's look at a couple of examples:

The Bible intrinsically is not different from any other book. I am talking about its essential characteristics. It is a book made, as all others, of paper and ink. It is only different in that the words printed on it are the words of God, and this makes it sacred to us who believe it's God's word, yet the meaning of the message printed on the paper doesn't change the book's inherent, or intrinsic, nature. It is still made of paper and ink as other books.

Again, the Sabbath in this way is like the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The fruit wasn't any different from other trees intrinsically. The only difference in the fruit was that God commanded that they not eat of it.

This is similar to the intrinsic quality of the Sabbath.

Recently I saw a post where you asked what this has to do with the discussion. It's related to the discussion because you said earlier that mankind will not learn that sin is evil if they are punished for sin by God's hand rather than by the natural consequenes of sin. You said that if God were to punish them, they would only learn that God hates sin but they wouldn't learn that sin itself is evil. I said that it's important for humanity to learn what God considers sin. Then I pointed out that there are some sins which we wouldn't realize are sin unless God revealed their sinfulness. One of those sins is homosexuality and the other is breaking the Seventh-day Sabbath. We wouldn't know those are sins and that they are evil if God didn't tell us so through special revelation.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda):and yet you have presented nary an example....

Speaking of examples, could you tell us who was the earliest SDA to believe that God never destroyed anyone and that God won't destroy the wicked by fire at the end of the thousand years? Please quote the writer or speaker and give the reference.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Yes it does what? There's no context here. You just quoted me saying "Yes it does." What's this talking about?

OK, see post #341940 on this thread, and about the beginning of page 46.

Here's the context:

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JOHN3:17: Yes, God rested on the Sabbath and it makes it different, but that doesn't make the day inherently any different."

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Yes it does.

God's resting on the Sabbath didn't change the day inherently, or intrinscially, any more than a particular message in a book changes the intrinsic nature of the book. All books are made of paper and ink, etc. All days are periods of 24 hours of time. That's the inherent, or intrinsic, nature of a day. Just in terms of time alone, there is no difference between one day and another.

I'm not denying that the Sabbath is a holy day, but that is not its intrincic quality.

God makes some humans holy also, but no humans [except for Christ] are intrinsically holy-- that is, they are not born holy. We become holy through God's blessing and by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't change our inherent, or intrinsic, nature. We will have the same intrinsic nature until Christ's return.

====================================

I'll post the following again, because I'm not sure if you saw it on a previous message:

Recently I saw a post where you asked what this has to do with the discussion. It's related to the discussion because you said earlier that mankind will not learn that sin is evil if they are punished for sin by God's hand rather than by the natural consequenes of sin. You said that if God were to punish them, they would only learn that God hates sin but they wouldn't learn that sin itself is evil. I said that it's important for humanity to learn what God considers sin. Then I pointed out that there are some sins which we wouldn't realize are sin unless God revealed their sinfulness. One of those sins is homosexuality and another is not keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath. We wouldn't know those are sins if God didn't tell us through special revelation. I think you'll agree that the only reason anyone keeps the Sabbath is due to their knowledge of God's command to keep it. It's different that way from the other commandments, such as the commandment against murder or stealing, etc. All societies have laws prohibiting those things.

[John317]

Quote:

Twilight:The whole argument rests on two false assumptions in my view.

1. That the SOP should be used as a basis for doctrine.

2. That the quote "God does not destroy" is a "universal principle".

These are the two points that cause the whole argument to fall down when examined.

I agree with you, Mark.

Although I do accept Ellen White's prophetic ministry and quote her extensively in this discussion, yet I don't base doctrine on her writings. The doctrine that God has destroyed the wicked before, and that He will punish the wicked by destroying them at the end of the thousand years, MUST be based on solid biblical evidence. It seems to me that those who reject the notion that God destroys or uses force, base their beliefs on a few quotes from Ellen White that are taken out of context. Not only do those quotes contradict the Bible but they also contradict everything Ellen White wrote on the subject of the final destruction of the wicked.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

We see His love...His agape, but what clouds it are these terrible statements.

It must be a terrible thing for God not to measure up to your standard of what is right and wrong.

God has set the standard, I'm merely measuring Him to His own standard. God is not above the law. We are told "agape is the fulfillment of the law". And we are also told, "God is agape". Therefore God is the fulfillment of the law.

So when folks ignorantly say "God is above the law" what they mean is He can do as He pleases. Well, my Bible tells me that God cannot sin. It's impossible. He is controlled by a love that isn't bent to self, rather He lives to serve His fallen children. He loves you more than Himself.

Hence, "whoever wants to be first [in God's kingdom] must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man [who is God] did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

It is within this truth that we must study God's strange acts because God doesn't change. His agape remains...He never sets it aside.

However, many here remain in darkness and in the end they will persecute the followers of Christ. Why?

Certainly, the time is coming when people who murder you will think that they are serving God. They will do these things to you because they haven't known the Father or me.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: The essential character of the Sabbath is different than any other day because that's the day that God rested on and blessed. This agrees with the definition of "inherent," doesn't it?

God's resting and blessing the day didn't change its inherent quality any more than God's justifying and sanctifying humans changes the inherent nature of human beings. The intrinsic nature of humans won't change until the Second Coming.

A book's intrinsic qualities are the same no matter what kind of book it is or what is printed inside the covers. It is the same with the Sabbath or with the fruit on the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't the intrinsic quality of the fruit that made the difference; the difference lay wholly in the command of God not to eat of that particular tree.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: God did something. He rested on the seventh day, and sanctified it. That changed the character of that day. Because God had rested and sanctified this day, He invites us to rest on it as well, so that we may share in the blessing of the day. We can't do this on any other day because no other day has this blessing. This is my understanding of the Sabbath. Do you disagree with the statements of this paragraph?

Quote:

JOHN3:17: The fact that the religious "perception" is necessary shows that there is not really any difference in the intrinsic quality of the day.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: No it doesn't. There's nothing in the definition of "inherent" that involves perception or religious perception.

You are right, and that is my point. The difference between the Sabbath and other days of the week can be seen only through spiritual perception, because the hours of the day are intrinsically the same as the hours of any other day of the week.

In the same way, it requires religious perception to see the difference between a believer and a non-believer, because their intrinsic nature is the same. There is no inherent difference between the humanity of a believer and the humanity of a non-believer. Their inherent natures are the same, despite the fact that God has justified and sanctified one and not the other.

Of course I do recognize that the seventh-day was blessed and set apart for special use by God, but that did not alter the intrinsic quality of the time. I also do agree that the Sabbath is special time that cannot be transferred to another day; but that is because of the believer's faith and because of the influence and power of the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath, then, is different because God is in it, and not because there is anything different in the individual hours of the day.

Quote:

pnattmbtc:I didn't say anything about the individual hours of the day.

OK, but what is the day made up of? It is made up of hours-- 24 of them, to be exact. Every day is the same: 24 hours. All of those hours are inherently the same. Their nature is based on one thing: how many hours it takes for the earth to rotate on its axis.

Those hours that make up the day are the same as the paper and ink and other parts that make up a book. All books are the same that way, including the Holy Bible. The fact that it is a Holy Bible doesn't mean that it is inherently any different from other books.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Regarding your assertion that God is in the Sabbath, how would this not affect the essential character of the day?

In the same way that the Holy Spirit in us-- our being made holy-- doesn't change the inherent nature of our humanity. Our human nature, as I said before, remains inherently the same until Christ returns. So while God did make the Sabbath holy, that act did not change the inherent nature of the day.

This is important because the only reason we know to keep the Sabbath is that God has told us to. We wouldn't know the Sabbath is holy or different from other days if God hadn't communicated this to us in His Word. No one would see any difference in the Sabbath simply by studying the inherent nature of the day. The difference is seen only through the eye of faith as it reflects upon the command of God found in Scripture.

How is this related to the topic of this thread? It's related to it by virtue of the fact that Sabbath-breaking is an example of a sin that humanity only knows because of God's hand. No one would ever know it's a sin to break the Sabbath if God didn't step in and tell us. Apart from the Bible informing us, we wouldn't know to keep the Sabbath and we certainly wouldn't realize that it's a sin NOT to keep it.

[Robert]

[Robert]

God is not above the law.

Politicians, and such, think that they are above the law. We see this hypocrisy all day long, but God is not like fallen men. God can do no other than love us with an everlasting love. Again, he loves sinners...his enemies...more than Himself because with God there's no bent-to-self...only selfless agape love. Even His justice (which isn't like John's portrayal) must be understand within the context of God's love.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: God is not above the law. We are told "agape is the fulfillment of the law". And we are also told, "God is agape". Therefore God is the fulfillment of the law.

So when folks ignorantly say "God is above the law" what they mean is He can do as He pleases. Well, my Bible tells me that God cannot sin. It's impossible.

All the laws of the universe, both moral and physical, come from God. God precedes law. The law is what it is because God made it so. It is in that sense that God is above the law. Creatures are subject to law; God is not. The law was written to meet mankind in the circumstances we find ourselves in. It was not written for God. The moral law shows us God's character, His love and justice, but God is not obligated to obey it as it reads. God IS the law.

The Bible says that God destroyed the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and that He destroyed the world with a flood. If you and I had done that, it would be mass murder. Did God commit murder, in your view-- that is, if you believed that He did those things, would you have to conclude that God sinned?

Let's assume for the moment that God will destroy the wicked by burning them up. Do you believe that for God to do that, He would be committing sin?

Do you believe God had the right and authority to command the children of Israel to kill?

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: What is the earliest SDA you know of who believed that God never destroyed anyone and that He won't destroy anyone in fire at the end of time? Could you quote that person and give references for it?

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pnattmbtc: Ellen White is the first I'm aware of. The references have been presented, but I'm happy to repost them.

You'll need to name someone else, because Ellen White never taught what you claim here. On the contrary, she wrote that "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that cause the destruction or death of the wicked." EW 52. I'd like to suggest that everyone who's interested spend some time at the Ellen White Estate studying this topic in Ellen White's writings and talking it over with the staff there or with people who have spent years studying it. They can offer lots of good, useful information on it that is gleaned from papers and articles written on this very question.

"God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110

"The wicked will He destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked." GC 541.

When Ellen White says such things as "God destroys no man," she is not denying that God will destroy the wicked after the Judgment. COL 84. She is saying that the wicked will have destroyed themselves by their choices. It is like the criminal who is killed by the state but who destroyed himself by his choice to live a life of crime. It is this same sense that she also says, "God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself." 5 T 120

If you check out the context of her statement, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner," you will find the significant phrase, "O Israel, thou has destroyed thyself." The statement that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner simply means that God does not stand over man today, threatening to make a decree as an executioner; but the sinner himself is responsible for his own decisions as to what seeds he will sow and reap. Notice in the above quote from GC 541 that she even says (many times) that "God executes justice upon the wicked." Ellen White also refers to the "retributive justice" of God which occurs after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Could you post what you believe to be her clearest statement that God did not destroy Sodom, nor the world by a flood, and that He will not finally destroy the wicked by fire.

Check out 4 SP 486-488. There you will see Ellen White taught that the wicked will be destroyed the same way that the Bible teaches: they will be destroyed by fire.

Can you tell from the following paragraphs what Ellen White believed on this topic?

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements burn with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are thein are burned up. The fire of Tophet is 'prepared for the king,' the cheif of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and 'the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.' The earth's surface seems one molten mass,-- a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungoldy men,-- 'the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense for the controversy of Zion.' The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. They 'shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.' Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds."

In the Great Controversy, she says, "In the cleansing flame the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch-- Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah."

She then speaks of the "earth [being] wrapped in the fire of destruction... The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth."

See all of GC 672-674.

Who else can you think of that believed in those early days that God wouldn't destroy the wicked in fire or that He didn't destroy the world in a flood? My maternal grandfather and grandmother both worked for the church as pastor and Bible worker during the time that Ellen White lived in Australia and in Northern California. My grandfather was an SDA minister, evangelist, and writer, during the 1890s and up to the 1930s, and I know he never heard of such a belief in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

I'm interested in the history and development of church doctrine. I would like to know who you believe was the first SDA to write a clear statement that God will not destroy the wicked by fire. Do you know of anyone prior to the 1970s? Please name the earliest person you know of who taught this without question and give a reference.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc:

OK, thanks for these. We should go over each one and look at the context of the passage and also look at the other things that Ellen White said on the same subeject.

Do you have any more quotes from Ellen White that you believe are critical to your position? If so, please post them.

Also, if you wouldn't mind, give all the primary Bible verses together if possible that you believe supports your position.

By the way, I am going back through the thread and answering all the posts and questions that I have not answered yet. Once I've done that, I'd like for you or sky or both of you to write a summary or review of the most important arguments and evidences from both sides of the issue. Try to be as objective as possible. I will do the same.

Once that is done, and if there's not much else new that is being said, I will be closing the thread. But that will probably not be for a few more days.

It's been a good discussion and I've enjoyed it a lot.

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God destroys no one. Testimonies for the Church, 5:120.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The Great Controversy, 36.

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest. Testimonies for the Church, 6:388, 389.

This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. Testimonies for the Church, 7:141.

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work. The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. The Desire of Ages, 487.

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. The Desire of Ages, 759.

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. The Desire of Ages, 22.

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. The Ministry of Healing, 113.

[Twilight]

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The whole argument rests on two false assumptions in my view.

1. That the SOP should be used as a basis for doctrine.

2. That the quote "God does not destroy" is a "universal principle".

These are the two points that cause the whole argument to fall down when examined.

People taking part in the discussion, except for Robert, have used the SOP. It's very possible to present an argument without the SOP, as Robert has done. Your comments certainly don't apply to what he has written.

Here's a reference to over 85 pages, all from Scripture alone, which develop the position that has been shared here:

http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

Do you have anywhere in the bible that states that "God never destroys" as a "universal principle" Pnat?

If you cannot show it from the bible, it is error.

Mark

[Twilight]

Some more Scripture references, along the lines of what tereseaq has posted:

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Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deut 31:17, 18)

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They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. (Jer. 33:5)

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For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.

Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.

Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes. (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)

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And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.

And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (2 Kings 17:17-20)

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Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. (Ps. 27:9)

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How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire? (Ps. 89:46)

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Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit. (Ps. 143:7)

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Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! (Hosea 9:12)

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The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.

The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast. (Lam. 2:5-7)

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18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)

Where is it expressed in the above quotes that these are "universal principles"?

That is the key point.

Which you all need to be able to show from scripture.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

and this:

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Psa 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

and who causes pestilence?

Where in this is it stated that God does not destroy is a unversal principle?

Mark :-)